“Ireland has a rape culture”

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Consent classes are another way to say "Teach men not to rape" classes. We all know you know this.

Also, everyone knows what consent is. The people claiming they don't are lying, as they're using it as a technicality to get away with rape / blame someone for rape.

You double down on pretending everyone knows what Consent is by pretending you know what I know.

You seem fixated on consent being all about men committing rape. But it ain't so.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And there we ultimately disagree. Witholding vital information on sexual health with regard to teenagers on the basis of it being a "value" is at best an advocation of ignorance and at worst child abuse.

And where there is abuse - mental and intellectual as much as any other form - then the State is totally justified in intervening.

If that’s another “one or the other” option you’re presenting, I’ll go with the advocation of ignorance option rather than suggesting parents who don’t share my values are guilty of abusing their own children.

This is precisely why the State is prohibited by all sorts of human rights laws from intervening in the family to the degree you would want it to, which is IMO a good thing for children and families and relationships. What you’re suggesting isn’t acting in anyone’s best interests only your own - you want parents to adhere to your way of thinking and if you had the power of the State, you would force them to comply or punish them.

I’ll at least give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re operating with good intentions, but your opinions are based upon ignorance and naivety. I don’t think you have any malicious intent whatsoever and that’s why I wouldn’t want to see you punished just because you don’t share my values. One doesn’t have to look too far back in the history of Irish society to remember the outcomes of your ideas in the past - families and people’s lives were destroyed by people who tried to use the power of the State to impose their ideas by force and coercion upon people who didn’t share their values and conform to their ideals for Irish society.

OMM 0000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You double down on pretending everyone knows what Consent is by pretending you know what I know.

You seem fixated on consent being all about men committing rape. But it ain't so.

You're either playing a game or being naive. Everyone knows consent classes are about preventing men from committing rape.

I think you're playing a game. You want there to be consent classes, and you know the only way to make it happen is by pretending they're not a "Teach men not to rape" class.

Or possibly you know you're coming across as sexist, so you're playing dumb to make it seem like you really think consent classes are gender neutral.

Reviews and Books Galore

The classes aren't about rape, they're about consent...but, if you break any of the consent rules, it's rape.


If my son was going to consent classes, I would be very tempted to sit in. I imagine the tone would change if there was an experienced man vs an easily led/shamed young man.



And, if that thought makes people uncomfortable, an older woman with a son would have the same (if not more) an effect.

OMM 0000

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

The classes aren't about rape, they're about consent...but, if you break any of the consent rules, it's rape.

I'm going to make a class called Don't use sex to get money or gifts.

All the examples will be about women using sex to get men to financially support their lives.

The class will explain how if you use sex for money or gifts, you're a gold digger.

Note: The class is not about gold digging nor is it aimed at women.

One eyed Jack

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

The classes aren't about rape, they're about consent...but, if you break any of the consent rules, it's rape.

If my son was going to consent classes, I would be very tempted to sit in. I imagine the tone would change if there was an experienced man vs an easily led/shamed young man.

And, if that thought makes people uncomfortable, an older woman with a son would have the same (if not more) an effect.

These classes are simply about instilling fear, paranoia and insecurities in children, attempting to destroy their relationships with their families and their peers and cause them to feel guilty for things they haven’t done. There’s nothing positive in them that I would regard as of any educational value whatsoever to children.

The idea of punishing parents who don’t permit their children to participate in these classes shows exactly what these people are really about - they’re about attempting to control people by violating their right to consent.

OMM 0000

And do you really think a consent class is going to stop a rapist?

It's beyond naive.

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You're either playing a game or being naive. Everyone knows consent classes are about preventing men from committing rape.

I think you're playing a game. You want there to be consent classes, and you know the only way to make it happen is by pretending they're not a "Teach men not to rape" class.

Or possibly you know you're coming across as sexist, so you're playing dumb to make it seem like you really think consent classes are gender neutral.

If you think consent is just about rape then I can see where you're coming from. That might be the layman's opinion on consent but it's like how football is just kicking a bag of air around or any other over simplification.

A d since you're advocating that consent is only about men committing rape, I suggest it's you who is being sexist. I don't see consent as men committing rape. I see it as a much broader issue beyond men and beyond rape.

It's a pity you only see consent as men committing rape.

One eyed Jack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

And do you really think a consent class is going to stop a rapist?

It's beyond naive.

This is the thing, the idea isn’t to stop rapists at all, nor is it to prevent people from becoming victims of rape and sexual assault, the idea is fundamentally about attempting to instil fear and paranoia in people.

Veritas Libertas

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is the thing, the idea isn’t to stop rapists at all, nor is it to prevent people from becoming victims of rape and sexual assault, the idea is fundamentally about attempting to instil fear and paranoia in people.

Also to assert power and control and to use it as a way to raise funding. How can people fall for such tired old rhetoric that doesn't mean anything "It's about learning a common language" "It's not about rape" etc.. etc..

There is absolutely no pragmatic or practical reason for these abominations. (evidence- not tired old rhetoric)

Now I realize people are making decisions on emotion rather than reason and it makes them uncomfortable to actually look into the facts, as it runs contrary to their narrative.

Annurca Apples

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Handmade's Tale is fiction.

God almighty why do some people desperately want to be victims. It's like a disease.

A lot of people identify as victims, it's part of their self image. Sometimes when two of these people meet each other all hello breaks loose over who is the biggest victim. :pac:

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

And do you really think a consent class is going to stop a rapist?

It's beyond naive.

Depends. It won't stop anyone from chasing someone down an ally to rape them at knife point.

But it would be really likely to prevent "rape" through misunderstanding and miscommunication. I'll bet there are bloke's sitting in prison right now and they don't believe they raped anyone. But the woman believes she was raped, the man doesn't think he did anything wrong and they get charged, go to court and either get convicted or not. Horrible experience for everyone involved and caused by a miscommunication.

Now, I think this is probably going to cause someone to make a case that non verbal communication body language etc. is a perfectly reliable method of communication.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But it would be really likely to prevent "rape" through misunderstanding and miscommunication.

How do you make that out? There is already an understanding in Irish law of what constitutes the offence of rape. Your use of inverted commas around the word rape suggests you have your own ideas about what constitutes rape. That’s what causes the misunderstanding and miscommunication you speak of - people who have their own ideas of what constitutes rape.

What constitutes rape is just one example of miscommunication and misunderstanding, and attempting to expand upon what constitutes rape only leads to more misunderstanding and miscommunication. That’s why the term “rape culture” is so poorly understood - because it’s so vague that anything can be used to argue that it leads to rape. It’s the slippery slope fallacy -


A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a logical fallacy in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect. The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect. This type of argument is sometimes used as a form of fearmongering, in which the probable consequences of a given action are exaggerated in an attempt to scare the audience.

johnmc76

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends. It won't stop anyone from chasing someone down an ally to rape them at knife point.

But it would be really likely to prevent "rape" through misunderstanding and miscommunication.

What's to misunderstand if a girl willingly goes to into your bedroom and starts taking off her clothes will make frequent use of the words... "**** Me..."?

Reviews and Books Galore

Consent isn't about rape you idiots... But it might stop misunderstandings that leads to rape accusations.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How do you make that out?

The answer to that question is set out in the rest of the post you quoted. There's no point me posting it again.

osarusan

OMM 0000 wrote: »

And do you really think a consent class is going to stop a rapist?

Not one who knows what they are doing is rape, no.

But it's not always as simple as that.

Here's one thread which shows that the good folk of boards were divided on whether this was rape or not.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057851437

I'd guess that the guy in that case, who ended up with 3 1/2 years in prison, never thought what he did amounted to rape under Irish law.

Based on that boards thread, I'd also guess that there are some people whose idea of what consent is, and what rape is, can differ from what Irish law actually says.

So I'd have no problem with a consent class that dealt with a few different scenarios (take them from real cases, if you like, such as the one above) and used them to highlight what the actual laws are on rape.

El_Duderino 09

johnmc76 wrote: »

What's to misunderstand if a girl willingly goes to into your bedroom and starts taking off her clothes will make frequent use of the words... "**** Me..."?

That pretty much sounds like consent me, so I wouldn't say there's much to misunderstand.

What do you think is to misunderstand about it?

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Consent isn't about rape you idiots... But it might stop misunderstandings that leads to rape accusations.

That's one aspect as I've said loads of times. But the other posters only want to talk about that single aspect. Shur, you've said you think consent is only about rape. Lol.

johnmc76

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That pretty much sounds like consent me, so I wouldn't say there's much to misunderstand.

What do you think is to misunderstand about it?

Nothing. So these classes are just a waste of time and resources. Its one of the Left's looking like they're trying to solve a problem or creating a problem just so they can look like they're trying to solve it.

El_Duderino 09

johnmc76 wrote: »

Nothing. So these classes are just a waste of time and resources. Its one of the Left's looking like they're trying to solve a problem or creating a problem just so they can look like they're trying to solve it.

Non sequitur Guff.

You outlined a single clear instance of consent and generalised from that to every case. Silly approach.

But if the only way sex happened was "girl willingly goes to into your bedroom and starts taking off her clothes will make frequent use of the words... "**** Me..." then you'd be correct. But it isn't, so you're not.

OMM 0000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you think consent is just about rape then I can see where you're coming from. That might be the layman's opinion on consent but it's like how football is just kicking a bag of air around or any other over simplification.

A d since you're advocating that consent is only about men committing rape, I suggest it's you who is being sexist. I don't see consent as men committing rape. I see it as a much broader issue beyond men and beyond rape.

It's a pity you only see consent as men committing rape.

Ah so you are playing games.

You know I don't think consent is only about men committing rape. You know my argument is that's what the class will be.

But your goal here is to win, so you're playing naive and playing word games.

Dishonest, so it's pointless talking to you any further.

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Ah so you are playing games.

You know I don't think consent is only about men committing rape. You know my argument is that's what the class will be.

But your goal here is to win, so you're playing naive and playing word games.

Dishonest, so it's pointless talking to you any further.

I've said loads if times I think consent is much more than rape. You keep saying that's all the classes are about. I said loads of times I wouldn't support classes that are just about men committing rape.

What in the name of Jaysus are you arguing about? If you need a big bad enemy to victimised you, it ain't me.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The answer to that question is set out in the rest of the post you quoted. There's no point me posting it again.

It’s because I don’t understand your answer that I’m asking you how you’re making out that consent classes could prevent rape. Your post didn’t explain how consent classes could prevent rape, it explained misunderstanding and miscommunication.

Unfortunately in spite of what you imagine was an effective communication, I still misunderstood your point. I’m not asking you to post what you posted again, because it wouldn’t help my understanding, you’d just be repeating yourself.

I’m asking you to explain your reasoning for believing that consent classes might prevent rape. The reason I’m asking is because I know that people will still accuse people of rape, and people will still be charged with the offence of rape. I know what constitutes the offence of rape in Irish law, and that knowledge doesn’t prevent me from being accused of rape, nor does it prevent me from committing rape.

My point is simply that I still don’t understand how you’re linking consent classes to rape prevention. Your answer is basically that “it depends”, and I agree with you on that much - the need for consent classes depends upon being able to argue that they are necessary to prevent rape, which, it is argued, is the ultimate consequence of “rape culture”. In order to link rape culture to rape, one first has to buy into the the idea of rape culture, and because anything can be considered a factor in influencing rape culture, then anything can be considered to lead to rape.

Consent classes are an attempt to educate children in an ideology which suggests that they live in a society under the constant threat of rape. I think it’s a poisonous ideology which depends upon the same circular logic and backwards rationalisation it purports to be addressing - you’re familiar with the idea that what a victim was wearing when they were raped was not the cause of their being raped. The same flawed logic behind the how the victim was dressed myth, is the same logic being used to argue that rape is the ultimate consequence of something else other than someone making a conscious decision to commit rape.

The majority of people who engage in all the behaviours which it is argued constitutes rape culture, do not commit rape. Only a small number of people actually commit rape, and they do so in spite of the fact that they are aware of what they are doing, which is why they try to prevent people from finding out. Consent classes rely the idea that people don’t know what they’re doing. People who choose to commit rape do know what they’re doing, and consent classes go nowhere near preventing those people from committing rape, and go nowhere near preventing people from becoming victims of rape.

youknowitstrue

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I was talking to a female doctor at a dinner party recently and she used the Handmaid's Tale as an example of how women are unequal to men.

It is astounding how stupid some people are.

They are being indoctrinated to believe this world view by insane lefty progressives types, who are the majority in media and academia, i would all most feel sorry for them but they are such a pain in the ass to normal thinking people.

OMM 0000

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you need a big bad enemy to victimised you, it ain't me.

What? How am I a victim? What are you even talking about?

You're not fooling anyone with your "consent classes are innocent and gender neutral" malarky.

I'm done talking to you.

OMM 0000

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s because I don’t understand your answer that I’m asking you how you’re making out that consent classes could prevent rape. Your post didn’t explain how consent classes could prevent rape, it explained misunderstanding and miscommunication.

Unfortunately in spite of what you imagine was an effective communication, I still misunderstood your point. I’m not asking you to post what you posted again, because it wouldn’t help my understanding, you’d just be repeating yourself.

I’m asking you to explain your reasoning for believing that consent classes might prevent rape. The reason I’m asking is because I know that people will still accuse people of rape, and people will still be charged with the offence of rape. I know what constitutes the offence of rape in Irish law, and that knowledge doesn’t prevent me from being accused of rape, nor does it prevent me from committing rape.

My point is simply that I still don’t understand how you’re linking consent classes to rape prevention. Your answer is basically that “it depends”, and I agree with you on that much - the need for consent classes depends upon being able to argue that they are necessary to prevent rape, which, it is argued, is the ultimate consequence of “rape culture”. In order to link rape culture to rape, one first has to buy into the the idea of rape culture, and because anything can be considered a factor in influencing rape culture, then anything can be considered to lead to rape.

Consent classes are an attempt to educate children in an ideology which suggests that they live in a society under the constant threat of rape. I think it’s a poisonous ideology which depends upon the same circular logic and backwards rationalisation it purports to be addressing - you’re familiar with the idea that what a victim was wearing when they were raped was not the cause of their being raped. The same flawed logic behind the how the victim was dressed myth, is the same logic being used to argue that rape is the ultimate consequence of something else other than someone making a conscious decision to commit rape.

The majority of people who engage in all the behaviours which it is argued constitutes rape culture, do not commit rape. Only a small number of people actually commit rape, and they do so in spite of the fact that they are aware of what they are doing, which is why they try to prevent people from finding out. Consent classes rely the idea that people don’t know what they’re doing. People who choose to commit rape do know what they’re doing, and consent classes go nowhere near preventing those people from committing rape, and go nowhere near preventing people from becoming victims of rape.

Your problem here is that you're actually thinking this through. Please stop. If you just use emotions for your decision making then obviously rape culture is terrifying so we definitely need consent classes.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s because I don’t understand your answer that I’m asking you how you’re making out that consent classes could prevent rape. Your post didn’t explain how consent classes could prevent rape, it explained misunderstanding and miscommunication.

Oh sure.
But it would be really likely to prevent "rape" through misunderstanding and miscommunication. I'll bet there are bloke's sitting in prison right now and they don't believe they raped anyone. But the woman believes she was raped, the man doesn't think he did anything wrong and they get charged, go to court and either get convicted or not. Horrible experience for everyone involved and caused by a miscommunication.

Hope this clears it up.

I'm all seriousness, if you dont know what a misunderstanding is or how one can happen when people are using body language to communicate, then I have to question whether you're being serious or if you're just pretending you don't get it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Elaborate, please?

If we're going to pretend all men are potential rapists and we need to teach them how not to rape, then it's only fair we pretend all women are potential gold diggers and we teach them how not to gold dig.

The sexism from some of the women here is mind boggling.

Fair enough, but the 'all men are potential rapists' line is as much of a pointless exaggeration as 'all women are gold-diggers'.

The ultimate problem here is the ignorance surrounding the idea that "consent" is merely the same as 'not rape'.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh sure.
But it would be really likely to prevent "rape" through misunderstanding and miscommunication. I'll bet there are bloke's sitting in prison right now and they don't believe they raped anyone. But the woman believes she was raped, the man doesn't think he did anything wrong and they get charged, go to court and either get convicted or not. Horrible experience for everyone involved and caused by a miscommunication.

Hope this clears it up.

It doesn’t clear anything up El_D and I need to understand what you’re trying to say here because I think it’s important.

I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not suggesting that if people are aware of the legal definition of what constitutes the offence of rape, they will be less likely to make a complaint of rape as they may feel that what they experienced doesn’t constitute the legal definition of rape. I say that because one of the most common immediate responses of people who have been raped, is denial. They use any means to deny the fact that they aren’t responsible for what happened to them, and they rationalise it to themselves that they are responsible in some way for what happened to them.

In what you’re presenting above, I just don’t see how consent classes are an attempt to prevent people from committing rape, or preventing people from becoming victims of rape? You’re talking about men in prison having been convicted of committing rape, I’m asking about preventing people from committing rape and preventing people from becoming the victims of people who choose to commit rape in the first place?

I agree with what you’re saying that consent classes aren’t about rape, but where we might disagree is that they do anything to prevent people who choose to commit rape from doing so, and they do nothing whatsoever to prevent people from becoming the victims of rape. At the risk of repeating myself, all they appear to do is is attempt to convince children that they live in a society where they are under a constant threat of rape.