“Ireland has a rape culture”

Reviews and Books Galore

joeguevara wrote: »

I was only making a point that I thought you were wrong. I would say you were called out for using the word wh0re rather than the point you were trying to make.

Also do you really believe that people were educated that girls were considered innocent saintly people and guys were demonized? I am asking a realistic question when unmarried girls were sent away and their children ripped from them with countless numbers adopted against their will or worse still ending up in septic tanks.. Do you honestly think that women were considered innocent when marital rape was only criminalized in Ireland in 1990.l

Education in Ireland in the 80s was shocking but I doubt people were brainwashed as you said when the evidence suggest that when a teenage boy got a girl Pregnant he didn't get anywhere near the punishment or isolation the girl got.

And again a young girl in the 80s who had no real knowledge or ambition who wanted a husband with money to bpe compared to a wh0re is wrong. In my opinion. Point missed or not.

Was marital rape criminalized or did they make a specific law that said it was illegal to rape your wife vs just having it covered under existing rape law?



Can you link an actually verified source that said it was okay to rape your wife? And, as a sidenote, it would also have said it was okay to rape your husband.



Hmmm, were any boys sent to industrial schools or priest schools as punishment? I find it awfully convenient that so much is being pushed under the rug in regards to that time and men.



I guess women were judged more as they were seen as higher species vs the dogs of men. HJigher emotional intelligience and better soft skills, so there is some truth to that in some way.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

???
Is that an answer the question I asked? I think this is actually a pretty important question so il like you to answer it.

cheers.

"You might note that I have never made consent about men being rapists. Have you at least noticed that? Serious question which I'd like you to answer"

FYI. Your retelling of the story is wrong. It was a bloke I loved with in uni and he believed it wasn't possible to rape your girlfriend. What details? I said it because it happened and it's relevant to the topic.

But answer the question I asked above if you're serious about having a conversation.

So, he literally said 'yeah, I can rape my girlfriend.' or was it a case of him not asking for consent to get into her bed.



and I did answer the question above :rolleyes: You're phrasing that story as him saying it was okay to rape his girlfriend, but, in reality, you were asking him about consent.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Answer the question in bold above first, and ask one.

Is that a command or a request?



You first. You have not answered my question on what sholdn't be a sex crime and whether yout were answering on should or shouldn't.



Lads, why in the world would you give your boys emotional development over to people who dodge questions, do wordplay and act puprosely obtuse.

I'm not in favour of you doing the education....

OMM 0000

Wife/Girlfriend: "I'm not in the mood for sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Tries to put his dick in anyway)

Wife/Girlfriend: "Stop! I don't want to have sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Ignores her, puts his dick in anyway, and has sex with her).

This is rape.

It's not "as bad" as other forms of rape, as these two people already regularly have sex with each other, and I don't think the emotional scars/fear are in any way close to being raped by a stranger or family member. But it's still rape.

I think probably it should be in it's own category: "Spousal Rape" or something like that, and should probably have a lesser sentence than regular rape.

So of course men can rape their partners.

This same logic needs to apply to women who rape their partners too.

hetuzozaho

"Spousal Rape"

What a disgusting idea

OMM 0000

hetuzozaho wrote: »

"Spousal Rape"

What a disgusting idea

You think all rapes are equal, regardless of the situation?

Do you apply that logic to murder, so there should be no such thing as voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter?

I think we need to be able to understand nuance and punish based on that nuance.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

hetuzozaho wrote: »

"Spousal Rape"

What a disgusting idea

Rape tends to be disgusting, correct.

hetuzozaho

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You think all rapes are equal, regardless of the situation?

Do you apply that logic to murder, so there should be no such thing as voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter?

I think we need to be able to understand nuance and punish based on that nuance.

Have a think about what your saying. Theres no rush.

Reviews and Books Galore

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Wife/Girlfriend: "I'm not in the mood for sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Tries to put his dick in anyway)

Wife/Girlfriend: "Stop! I don't want to have sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Ignores her, puts his dick in anyway, and has sex with her).

This is rape.

It's not "as bad" as other forms of rape, as these two people already regularly have sex with each other, and I don't think the emotional scars/fear are in any way close to being raped by a stranger or family member. But it's still rape.

I think probably it should be in it's own category: "Spousal Rape" or something like that, and should probably have a lesser sentence than regular rape.

So of course men can rape their partners.

This same logic needs to apply to women who rape their partners too.

Eh, that's pretty bad.

OMM 0000

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Eh, that's pretty bad.

Let me ask you the same question:

All rapes are equal?

A husband who doesn't listen to his wife and keeps going is equal to a stranger raping a random woman?

They just aren't and they need to be treated differently.

Reviews and Books Galore

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Let me ask you the same question:

All rapes are equal?

A husband who doesn't listen to his wife and keeps going is equal to a stranger raping a random woman?

They just aren't and they need to be treated differently.

Funnilly enough, I think a husband rape could be worse as it is more a breaking of trust.



In your scenario does the woman consent?

suicide_circus

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Wife/Girlfriend: "I'm not in the mood for sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Tries to put his dick in anyway)

Wife/Girlfriend: "Stop! I don't want to have sex."

Husband/Boyfriend: (Ignores her, puts his dick in anyway, and has sex with her).

This is rape.

It's not "as bad" as other forms of rape, as these two people already regularly have sex with each other, and I don't think the emotional scars/fear are in any way close to being raped by a stranger or family member. But it's still rape.

I think probably it should be in it's own category: "Spousal Rape" or something like that, and should probably have a lesser sentence than regular rape.

So of course men can rape their partners.

This same logic needs to apply to women who rape their partners too.

i dont even understand how you would "put it in" to an unwilling woman without considerable violence. it dosnt just pop in like that

OMM 0000

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Funnilly enough, I think a husband rape could be worse as it is more a breaking of trust.

In your scenario does the woman consent?

The woman doesn't consent. It's rape.

I just think rape should have different classifications, just like killing someone has different classifications.

1st degree, 2nd degree, something like that.

If I was going to be raped I would totally prefer it's an ex rather than a stranger. At least I know the ex has just temporarily lost her mind and isn't going to kill me, rather than having no information about my attacker.

OMM 0000

suicide_circus wrote: »

i dont even understand how you would "put it in" to an unwilling woman without considerable violence. it dosnt just pop in like that

Fooling around and then she changes her mind.

suicide_circus

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Fooling around and then she changes her mind.

ok. a fairly rare scenario in a long term committed relationship i would have thought.

OMM 0000

suicide_circus wrote: »

ok. a fairly rare scenario in a long term committed relationship i would have thought.

Sure, I'm not trying to say it is common. But it does happen, i.e. rape can and does happen within a committed relationship.

I just don't think it's as severe as a family member or stranger raping you. Hence why I think rape it should be "Spousal Rape" or 2nd degree rape or something like that.

I'm not really into black and white thinking or black and white punishments.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

So, he literally said 'yeah, I can rape my girlfriend.' or was it a case of him not asking for consent to get into her bed.



and I did answer the question above :rolleyes: You're phrasing that story as him saying it was okay to rape his girlfriend, but, in reality, you were asking him about consent.

I'll tell you what happened but I'll ask you to stop telling what happened because you keep getting it wrong.

He was chatting to us the next day and when the question of whether she was I to it, he said it's jot possible to rape your girlfriend. Because he believed being in a relationship meant consent didn't come into it. Does that clear it up?

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This was common in boys sex education if you could call it that in the 80s. Boys were sex crazed lunatics who had to control their urges and girls were innocents looking for love and only agreed to sex as a part of that. That's what we were told by everyone.

The reality didn't match up at all.

There was a Pet Shop Boys song that explained it well "It's a sin". They were gay so they had an extra layer but that was a typical education for Irish guys in the 80s. All about shame.Even masturbation was highly shameful and sinful.

Incredible. Does that explain the paranoia some people seem to have around this stuff? They seem terrifies that these things can only be phrased in tens of men being bad. Obviously the reality is that we don't have to teach these issues as men being bad.

I wasn't taught that men are morally inferior.

ToddyDoody

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Here we go again... Ireland’s “rape culture” makes headlines yet again. Hey irish men, could you just stop raping women for five minutes please.

Hashtag mee too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-a-rape-culture-woman-who-was-assaulted-calls-for-more-victim-protection-1.4033034

And the courts are cheerleaders for it all.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Incredible. Does that explain the paranoia some people seem to have around this stuff? They seem terrifies that these things can only be phrased in tens of men being bad. Obviously the reality is that we don't have to teach these issues as men being bad.

I wasn't taught that men are morally inferior.

That’s very true, we don’t have to teach these issues as men being bad. We don’t teach like that and I was never taught like that and children now aren’t taught like that.

Consent classes though, and being taught they are part of “rape culture”, is poisonous. That’s why people are opposed to the idea. It’s not paranoia to say that, it’s entirely justified to say that based upon the beliefs of the people who want children to be educated in consent classes and rape culture.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s very true, we don’t have to teach these issues as men being bad. We don’t teach like that and I was never taught like that and children now aren’t taught like that.

Consent classes though, and being taught they are part of “rape culture”, is poisonous. That’s why people are opposed to the idea. It’s not paranoia to say that, it’s entirely justified to say that based upon the beliefs of the people who want children to be educated in consent classes and rape culture.

Stall the ball. What's "rape culture" got to do with anything I've said about consent discussions with young people as part of sex, relationships and sexuality education?

This is exactly what I said earlier about a paranoia. You're inserting in an additional layer of "rape culture" which I certainly haven't even mentioned ( I've never even said it in earnest in my life). The beliefs you mention are unjustified.

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Fooling around and then she changes her mind.

The onus in on the person who changes their mind to express their changed mind. I think that should be explained to everyone so they know people can change their mind and they can express that change of mind and they should react to a change of mind when expressed. Seems fairly straightforward to discuss.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Stall the ball. What's "rape culture" got to do with anything I've said about consent discussions with young people as part of sex, relationships and sexuality education?

This is exactly what I said earlier about a paranoia. You're inserting in an additional layer of "rape culture" which I certainly haven't even mentioned ( I've never even said it in earnest in my life). The beliefs you mention are unjustified.

Teaching children that they live in a society where rape culture is a thing is the underlying reason beneath the idea that consent classes are necessary for school going children. If you read the article in the opening post in this thread, it’s right there in black and white -

Consent classes should be given in primary schools, she believes.

Nearly two decades on, Ireland still has “a rape culture”, she says.

I wasn’t referring to you specifically when I said that consent classes, and teaching children that they are part of rape culture, is poisonous.

You yourself didn’t say it, and that’s why I wasn’t referring to you specifically. I was responding to your observation that people are paranoid about consent classes. I was saying that they have every reason to be paranoid, because the idea of anyone teaching their children that they are contributing to “rape culture”, is poisonous.

Politicians such as Ruth Coppinger attempting to introduce the “objective sex education” bill, waving her knickers about in the Dail, and the Executive Director of Rape Crisis Network Ireland coming out with irresponsible statements like young girls need to be taught that boys are a danger to them, I simply do not trust them to have anyone’s best interests in mind, only the promotion of their own political and social agendas which I do not share, as I do not share their beliefs.

They do of course have every right to educate their own children according to their values and beliefs, the same rights as any parent in Irish society, but when they are campaigning and promoting legislation which would enable them to do an end-run around parents and the school in order to promote their own beliefs and values, it’s no longer paranoia to suggest that something really stinks about not just their beliefs, but the way they’re trying to instill their beliefs in children’s minds under the guise of purporting that it is necessary education for children.

JJayoo

The first day in national school children should be taught not to rape each other.

Tickle me Elmo changes to rape me Elmo unless Elmo gives consent.

This thread has gone down the toilet, any chance someone could sum up the two different view points instead of people having to read 20+ pages

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Teaching children that they live in a society where rape culture is a thing is the underlying reason beneath the idea that consent classes are necessary for school going children. If you read the article in the opening post in this thread, it’s right there in black and white -

Consent classes should be given in primary schools, she believes.

Nearly two decades on, Ireland still has “a rape culture”, she says.

Who made this woman the arbiter of wetter there's rape culture it not? And why do you think consent discussions are necessarily dependent on there being a rape culture? I am a example of someone who thinks we should have consent discussions with young people, but I've never said there is a rape culture.

It's like saying we only teach children about personal hygiene because we have a filth culture. Discussing consent is not about a rape culture, nor is about calling men rapists. It's simply about discussing a very important aspect of life with young people to prepare them to have happy, healthy relationships. It's the same as the rest of sex and relationships education.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

JJayoo wrote: »

The first day in national school children should be taught not to rape each other.

Tickle me Elmo changes to rape me Elmo unless Elmo gives consent.

This thread has gone down the toilet, any chance someone could sum up the two different view points instead of people having to read 20+ pages

Sure.

People who don't know what "culture" means versus people who think that unless someone is dragged down an alleyway, stripped, beaten and forced into sex against their will, it's not rape.

Somehow, consent awareness is the problem and the solution. Because it's called 'consent' and not something sensible, like sexual communication and, in any case, parents who apparently might think that no form of sexual education is better for kids anyway. Perhaps there'll just muddle about and work out that the whole point is to stick with the pointy bit until they can't say no.

Don't think I've missed anything...?

El_Duderino 09

JJayoo wrote: »

The first day in national school children should be taught not to rape each other.

Tickle me Elmo changes to rape me Elmo unless Elmo gives consent.

This thread has gone down the toilet, any chance someone could sum up the two different view points instead of people having to read 20+ pages

I think discussing consent with young people as part of sex and relationships education is a good idea - became it's part of sex and relationships.

Some posters think discussing consent means you have to tell men there all potential rapists. It wouldn't even occur me to discuss it like that but some posters insist it can only be discussed if it's about telling boys they're all potential rapists. I disagree.

Annurca Apples

JJayoo wrote: »

The first day in national school children should be taught not to rape each other.

Tickle me Elmo changes to rape me Elmo unless Elmo gives consent.

This thread has gone down the toilet, any chance someone could sum up the two different view points instead of people having to read 20+ pages

They should also be taught not to eat each other, cannibalism is not permitted, and strongly discouraged.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Who made this woman the arbiter of wetter there's rape culture it not? And why do you think consent discussions are necessarily dependent on there being a rape culture? I am a example of someone who thinks we should have consent discussions with young people, but I've never said there is a rape culture.

It's like saying we only teach children about personal hygiene because we have a filth culture. Discussing consent is not about a rape culture, nor is about calling men rapists. It's simply about discussing a very important aspect of life with young people to prepare them to have happy, healthy relationships. It's the same as the rest of sex and relationships education.

I don’t have any issue whatsoever with you discussing whatever you wish to discuss, however you wish to discuss it, with your own children. That’s why I wasn’t specifically talking about you.

You were wondering where the paranoia that you observed in people who are opposed to consent classes is coming from, and I was just showing you where exactly it’s coming from and why it is entirely justified. I’m not suggesting everyone (I’m including you in that) who thinks consent classes are a good idea have an underhanded agenda, I’m suggesting that there are some people who are pushing the idea of consent classes where the content consists of attempting to convince children that they are living in a society where they are under constant threat of rape.

Reviews and Books Galore

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Sure.

People who don't know what "culture" means versus people who think that unless someone is dragged down an alleyway, stripped, beaten and forced into sex against their will, it's not rape.

Somehow, consent awareness is the problem and the solution. Because it's called 'consent' and not something sensible, like sexual communication and, in any case, parents who apparently might think that no form of sexual education is better for kids anyway. Perhaps there'll just muddle about and work out that the whole point is to stick with the pointy bit until they can't say no.

Don't think I've missed anything...?

Again. Women like sex. Prepare yourself, but sometimes...


They are even the aggressor :rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Annurca Apples wrote: »

They should also be taught not to eat each other, cannibalism is not permitted, and strongly discouraged.

Yeah. Maybe you should go do another rereg. Some people are having an honest discussion.