“Ireland has a rape culture”

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I thought it might be interesting and switched over to watch it, but when I heard this just now -


“Even if she’s underage, it’s not illegal to stop someone”


That’s enough of that then. Creepy fcuks.

Isn't their set of beliefs Interesting though?

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Isn't their set of beliefs Interesting though?

Honestly, not to me El_D. I was only gonna watch it because anewme mentioned it was on, but soon as I heard that I just thought nah, not entertaining that shìte.

Enough is Enough!

I'm surprised these bootcamps still exist. PUA started to die out around 2006.

I do have fond memories of reading The Game.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Honestly, not to me El_D. I was only gonna watch it because anewme mentioned it was on, but soon as I heard that I just thought nah, not entertaining that shìte.

Fair enough. In the context of this thread, it shows there are people with wildly different beliefs about what's OK and what isn't, when it comes to consent and sex.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair enough. In the context of this thread, it shows there are people with wildly different beliefs about what's OK and what isn't, when it comes to consent and sex.

Oh completely, and sure we all knew that too, and those guys would still be like that with all the consent classes in the world, because they’re thinking only of themselves and they know well what they’re doing.

OMM 0000

anewme wrote: »

Guy just said listen to her body, not her words.

Are you kidding me?

If a woman doesn't want to have sex, but refuses to say "no" or "stop" or "I don't want to do this" then it is not rape, regardless of how much she regrets it later.

How is this not common sense?

pinkyeye

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you kidding me?

If a woman doesn't want to have sex, but refuses the say "no" or "stop" or "I don't want to do this" then it is not rape, regardless of how much she regrets it later.

How is this not common sense?

Now I definitely know you need help.

OMM 0000

pinkyeye wrote: »

Now I definitely know you need help.

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

anewme

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

Nothing to do with mind reading.

He said dont listen to her words, ie, if she says NO, don’t listen and “escalate”

NO means NO.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Oh completely, and sure we all knew that too, and those guys would still be like that with all the consent classes in the world, because they’re thinking only of themselves and they know well what they’re doing.

I don't know about that. Strikes me they might be getting their first specific discussion about consent with a pick up artist with dodgy morals.

People learn their standards somewhere. I really don't think we should leave it up to just anyone.

OMM 0000

anewme wrote: »

Nothing to do with mind reading.

He said dont listen to her words, ie, if she says NO, don’t listen and “escalate”

NO means NO.

Ohhhhhh

He's a creep.

He's saying "I don't care if she says 'no'".

I thought it was the opposite - a feminist or something saying "she doesn't have to say anything, you should be able to read her mind via body language".

El_Duderino 09

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

I think we should teach women and men to express their consent or non consent or change in consent, clearly and with confidence.

anewme

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Ohhhhhh

He's a creep.

He's saying "I don't care if she says 'no'".

I thought it was the opposite - a feminist or something saying "she doesn't have to say anything, you should be able to read her mind via body language".

No. Exact opposite.

He was saying ignore what words she says, but you read her body language( clearly in the way that suits you)

pinkyeye

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

Nope, I'm one of those people who believes that women very often do not say "NO I DON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX" out loud for various different reasons including fear, shock, shame etc. etc.

If you don't understand that it's you who needs to grow up. Me, I'm plenty grown up. 50 years of age and know plenty of rape victims.

You on the other hand definitely need consent lessons.

OMM 0000

anewme wrote: »

No. Exact opposite.

He was saying ignore what words she says, but you read her body language( clearly in the way that suits you)

I'm guessing he's trying to say lots of women like to playfully say no (true), so you have to look at the complete picture to know what's happening, but I think that's a risky strategy.

If a woman says no, even jokingly, the guy should pull back.

It's sad, and it's sad for the girl too, but a few crazies have ruined it for everyone.

One eyed Jack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you one of those people who think women are pathetic and shouldn't be responsible for anything?

A man should be able to read their mind?

Grow up.

One of the criteria which constitutes the offence of rape as it is defined in Irish law, is whether or not the accused is deemed to have been reckless in obtaining consent.


2.—(1) A man commits rape if—

(a) he has unlawful sexual intercourse with a woman who at the time of the intercourse does not consent to it, and

(b) at that time he knows that she does not consent to the intercourse or he is reckless as to whether she does or does not consent to it, and references to rape in this Act and any other enactment shall be construed accordingly.


(2) It is hereby declared that if at a trial for a rape offence the jury has to consider whether a man believed that a woman was consenting to sexual intercourse, the presence or absence of reasonable grounds for such a belief is a matter to which the jury is to have regard, in conjunction with any other relevant matters, in considering whether he so believed.


Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981


Bold emphasis my own.

OMM 0000

pinkyeye wrote: »

Nope, I'm one of those people who believes that women very often do not say "NO I DON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX" out loud for various different reasons including fear, shock, shame etc. etc.

If you don't understand that it's you who needs to grow up. Me, I'm plenty grown up. 50 years of age and know plenty of rape victims.

You on the other hand definitely need consent lessons.

Why are you making things up about me?

Why are you pretending I don't understand consent?

You're a part of the problem, assuming innocent men are guilty.

Enough is Enough!

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Are you kidding me?

If a woman doesn't want to have sex, but refuses to say "no" or "stop" or "I don't want to do this" then it is not rape, regardless of how much she regrets it later.

How is this not common sense?

Depends. If she's just lying there you should stop and ask her what's up. If she's obviously enjoying it, then drive on.

anewme

Enough is Enough! wrote: »

Depends. If she's just lying there you should stop and ask her what's up. If she's obviously enjoying it, then drive on.

If she says no, that’s the end of it.

end of.

Enough is Enough!

anewme wrote: »

If she says no, that’s the end of it.

end of.

Yes. And if she's giving clear signs she's into it, keep at it and enjoy a good night.

pinkyeye

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Why are you making things up about me?

Why are you pretending I don't understand consent?

You're a part of the problem, assuming innocent men are guilty.

I'm not making anything up about you.

You're the one who stated that if a woman doesn't say NO then it's not rape.

That is incorrect in law and in real life so you clearly need lessons.

OMM 0000

Enough is Enough! wrote: »

Depends. If she's just lying there you should stop and ask her what's up. If she's obviously enjoying it, then drive on.

No. Women aren't children.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex she needs to speak up.

If a woman isn't confident enough to speak or say what she wants, then she shouldn't be having sex.

It would be wildly inappropriate for a woman to bring a guy home, kiss, get naked, get into bed, have sex, and then accuse him of rape because he couldn't read her mind.

Enough is Enough!

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It would be wildly inappropriate for a woman to bring a guy home, kiss, get naked, get into bed, have sex, and then accuse him of rape because he couldn't read her mind.

Fully agree with you there.

anewme

Enough is Enough! wrote: »

Yes. And if she's giving clear signs she's into it, keep at it and enjoy a good night.

Even if she says NO?

OMM 0000

pinkyeye wrote: »

I'm not making anything up about you.

You're the one who stated that if a woman doesn't say NO then it's not rape.

That is incorrect in law and in real life so you clearly need lessons.

You're still making things up.

I said if she doesn't say "no" or "stop" or "I don't want to do this" or in any way audibly make her feelings known, then it's not rape.

The issue is she shouldn't be having sex with anyone as she's clearly got issues.

Women aren't pathetic children. I'm not a feminist but even I can see it's disgusting to think women are pathetic and incapable of speaking.

I'm not talking about our prehistoric rape laws. Women legally can still rape men in Ireland.

Enough is Enough!

anewme wrote: »

Even if she says NO?

If she's says no then you should stop.

OMM 0000

Enough is Enough! wrote: »

Fully agree with you there.

Seems we're in the minority.

It sounds like we don't need consent courses, but rather courses which teach women how to speak.

The sexism in this thread is mind boggling.

One eyed Jack

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No. Women aren't children.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex she needs to speak up.

If a woman isn't confident enough to speak or say what she wants, then she shouldn't be having sex.

It would be wildly inappropriate for a woman to bring a guy home, kiss, get naked, get into bed, have sex, and then accuse him of rape because he couldn't read her mind.

She doesn’t though, that seems to be the point you keep missing.

If someone wants to have sex with someone, the obligation is upon them, to ensure consent is present. Otherwise, they may well find themselves ending up behind bars still protesting their innocence.

anewme

Enough is Enough! wrote: »

If she's says no then you should stop.

That’s not what the guys in the program said.

OMM 0000

One eyed Jack wrote: »

She doesn’t though, that seems to be the point you keep missing.

If someone wants to have sex with someone, the obligation is upon them, to ensure consent is present. Otherwise, they may well find themselves ending up behind bars still protesting their innocence.

I'm not talking about the law.

As I pointed out already, our rape laws are ridiculous.

A woman can rape - literally force you to have sex with her while you scream no - and it's totally legal.

I'm talking about common sense. It is not real world to assume men have psychic abilities.