“Ireland has a rape culture”

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

If anyone can be assaulted, then why would it be stupid to teach kids than anyone can be assaulted, male or female, if the law doesn't recognize that women are capable of sexual assault doesn't mean it is right.

Well, duh. But you misread the post you quoted. I said anyone can be sexually assaulted. But only a man can commit a rape in Irish law. So it would be ridiculous to teach the law wrongly just to satisfy your personal preference. I gave my opinion on the law

Silentcorner wrote: »

Female sexual manipulation, whilst an uncomfortable topic, does affect people albeit a tiny minority, just like the tiny minority of women who will be subjected to rape, or the tiny minority of men who will be falsely accused of rape.

I don't want anything to be a blame game, the likes of you do...it is your hang ups that are the problem, you're inability to recognize that both genders have toxic elements....what is wrong with teaching kids how toxic behaviours of both genders will or can impact both men and women, gay or straight!

Now you and Reviews... are in disagreement on this point but you keep addressing your concerns to me. You’d be much better chatting to each other.

They don’t want any negative coverage of boys sexuality lest boys believe they’re rapists in the waiting. But you want to tech the “toxic” elements of both men and women.

I would take a different approach where I wouldn’t call boys rapists or women toxic manipulative people. I’d just talk about healthy and unhealthy behaviours. Unhealthy behaviours would include manipulation, controlling behaviours, abuse and violence etc.

I’m not sure if that’s not explicitly pointed enough for you. But I’d neither call men rapists or women manipulative creatures. I’d just talk about the behaviours and how to spot them and that’s they understand that they don’t deserve to be treated with those behaviours.

El_Duderino 09

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.

Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.

It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.

Yeah men’s. groups would have to swim against the tide, just like all other rights groups. If they would be accepted with open arms from the beginning, there wouldn’t be need for their existence.

I always find it really interesting that the fact that mens lobby groups would fact opposition, means some people think it is futile. Not so.

Obviously they would face opposition. So what?

cloudatlas

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.

Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.

It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.

Yeah what a great guy, a lovely homophobe.


-In 2013, Davies voted against same-sex marriage

-In March 2019, Davies was one of 21 MPs who voted against LGBT inclusive sex and relationship education in English schools.

El_Duderino 09

alastair wrote: »

The law here defines non-consensual sex as rape. So clearly consent is absolutely about rape, along with all the other attributes of being a decent considerate person.

Yeah and if you focus the whole discussion of consent around rape then you’d have a rape discussion. That’s not what I’m advocating for at all.

Consent is about ensuring a positive experience in sex (and lots of other areas of life). Of course the discussion would have to include the consequences of the absence of consent (rape). But if you only want to talk about rape, then you’ll get the rape discussion that some posters are so terrified of. And since only men can commit rape in Irish law, then it would be exactly the discussion that so many are terrified of (men are all potential rapists). And I would be opposed to that too.

cloudatlas

Veritas Libertas wrote: »

I'm sure they would happily give input if asked. The problem is since the #metoo era men have been told their opinion is no longer welcome by feminists.

Do you know the type of unfair stigma attached to men's groups?
Here is Jess Phillips laughing her ass off at the concept of discussing men's issues in the UK parliament.

It is quite hilarious while at the same time as espousing love, diversity and inclusion, these types will happily demonize men at the slightest opportunity.

For example you can go on the house of commons website and search for testicular cancer and find out that it has been discussed and tabled especially in the early 2000's when they were in the early stages of implementing plans to raise awareness of this type of cancer. Testicular cancer is relatively uncommon whereas Breast cancer is the most common cancer hence why this 'woman's issue' is more prevalent (FYI men get breast cancer as well because you have chests) that's why it is discussed more often.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah and if you focus the whole discussion of consent around rape then you’d have a rape discussion. That’s not what I’m advocating for at all.

Consent is about ensuring a positive experience in sex (and lots of other areas of life). Of course the discussion would have to include the consequences of the absence of consent (rape). But if you only want to talk about rape, then you’ll get the rape discussion that some posters are so terrified of. And since only men can commit rape in Irish law, then it would be exactly the discussion that so many are terrified of (men are all potential rapists). And I would be opposed to that too.

I genuinely think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in regards to consent classes.

One eyed Jack

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Catholic church.

Rape has never been acceptable within the Catholic Church, and you’ll be hard pressed to find any part in Catholic doctrine which suggests that rape is acceptable, let alone find any Catholics who have ever suggested that it’s permissible according to their doctrine tor Catholics to commit rape.

Trite soundbites like the above just thrown out there are precisely the reason why people don’t take nonsense like “rape culture” seriously, because it’s an obvious attempt to associate anything which offends that person’s sensitivities, with rape, which is still regarded by society as one of the most heinous offences against another person.

anewme wrote: »

If you dont know the poster in question, then you cannot say whether or not they are telling the truth or taking the piss.

I don’t know you either anewme, but I’ve always thought you made great points in any discussion and I’ve always given you the benefit of the doubt as opposed to assuming any ill intent on your part. I extend that same courtesy to anyone I don’t know, so when a poster comes out with a statement like that, I’m going to give them the same benefit of the doubt that they’re not a complete idiot and it was a poor attempt at employing satire to show the silliness of the term “rape culture”.

anewme wrote: »

If someone says they are going to commit suicide, you take them at face value and act accordingly.

You might, but I wouldn’t. Now I don’t know if before your training you would have taken them at face value, I’m assuming you would and that you didn’t have to be told you should. My point is that often people make the choice between doing what they have been trained to do, and what they actually believe they should do. I’ve received training in the area too, but when someone says to me they are going to take their own life, I’ve told them “off you ****!” I’ve never entertained the notion that anyone should ever use suicide as a means to manipulate people into capitulation. That’s acting accordingly in the same way as you would act accordingly based upon how you have been trained to act in those circumstances.

(I’m not even going to get picky with you about your use of the word “commit” in the context of suicide, I’ve met many trained social workers who still use those terms and aren’t even aware of it, but I still understand what they mean)

anewme wrote: »

If someone threats against anyones personal safety against you, you take them at face value and act accordingly. So if someone says they love raping, then they could well mean it. It's not your place to make assumptions. You also don’t know how the public would take that statement.

It is of course everyone’s place to make assumptions. People make assumptions about other people based upon a combination of their experiences and their knowledge. For example I’m assuming that you actually are trained in counselling, because from my own experiences of training in counselling and from having experience with a number of people working in the whole area of providing services to people who have been victims of rape, the language you’re using is the same sort of stuff that they come out with.

One can make assumptions too about how the public would take that statement. It’s not a leap to suggest that some people will take it literally, whereas more people will see it as a poor attempt at a joke. It’s kind of like when myself and one of my mates were in the club one night and she spotted a good looking guy, “I’d rape him” she said. It raised an eyebrow, nothing more, because I gave her the benefit of the doubt that she was joking. That’s acting according to how I assessed the situation. Pointing out that she was “perpetuating rape culture”, might also have been acting accordingly, but just like I don’t get my knickers twisted when someone uses the term “commit suicide”, I’m not inclined to get anxious when someone makes a joke. There’s no link whatsoever between making jokes about rape, and committing rape.

anewme wrote: »

Calling that deluded or dangerous says more about you.

I take it you don’t personally know Omackerel either, yet you’re willing to make assumptions about him based upon something he says, while telling him it isn’t his place to make assumptions about people he doesn’t know. How do you square that one with yourself? Genuinely I’m interested to understand because it appears very much like one rule for you and another for others, do as I say, not as I do type stuff.

anewme wrote: »

I'm not sure why you say I'm clinging to one point...I specifically commented on that aspect of this thread. That comments like that are inflammatory and add nothing to the discussion.

That’s precisely the point the poster was making in response to the idea of an inflammatory term like “rape culture”. What has using the term “rape culture” ever added to any discussion where people don’t agree the term should have any legitimacy? It’s fine among people who agree with the term and bandy it about to show how knowledgeable they are of systemic issues, but that’s about where it’s utility begins and ends - outside of a tiny minority of like minded individuals, the term is meaningless. It has no value and only serves to inflame a discussion and wind people up. It has never done anything to prevent rape, or to prevent people from being raped.

So why use the term rape when the actual meaning seems to be “everything I believe that contributes to rape”. That could literally be anything, and before you suggest it’s not meant to be taken literally, I’m aware that it’s not meant to be taken literally, just like I’m aware that I shouldn’t take them literally when someone says they like to rape, or someone says they’re going to take their own life, they might even say commit suicide as they may not have the training you or I have where we would use the term “die by suicide”, and even then they might still say commit suicide even though they didn’t mean it literally. Acting accordingly surely means acting based upon an assessment of context in which a person says something. It shouldn’t mean shìt gets lit up and we immediately assume the worst. That’s an irrational response and is often the response of people who use terms like “rape culture”, immediately assuming an association between someone making a joke about rape, to assuming they would actually commit rape. There’s a whole chasm of difference between the two and any link between them is manufactured by people based upon their assumptions. It sure as hell isn’t based upon reality.

anewme wrote: »

What part of this do you find as dangerous and deluded attitude exactly?

When it gets dangerous is when ideas like “rape culture” are used in the context of formulating legislation and policies governing society. The idea being to prohibit people from offending other people’s sensitivities. It certainly hasn’t been demonstrated that addressing what you term “rape culture” actually does anything to prevent rape.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say anyone who uses the term is deluded though, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt that they’re not just attempting to wind people up, and when they are dismissed as idiots will attempt to suggest that their dismissal is yet another example of “rape culture” and thereby proving their point that a rape culture is actually a legitimate idea that deserves to be taken seriously by anyone else.

anewme wrote: »

Laws will change in relation to Social Media where people will be held accountable for what they write and trolls will end up being prosecuted.

Laws already exist in Ireland where people are held accountable for what they write. Boards has reminded posters of this on numerous occasions. Boards isn’t likely to contact Gardai in the event that someone makes a joke satirising the idea of “rape culture”, and doing so is precisely what makes the idea of “rape culture” dangerous. Bringing prosecutions against people for making jokes in poor taste is a waste of resources that neither the Gardai nor the State can actually afford to waste. I can think of a million things more worthwhile than wasting limited resources on such nonsense, like Simon Harris actually being made to fulfil his recent promises of more funding and resources for the national SATU service and actually implementing the recommendations in the departmental review -

https://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/satu-network-aims-treat-whole-person-27-06-2019/

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I genuinely think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in regards to consent classes.

Of course I do. Some people think consent is all about rape.

I outlined some of the things I would want a consent discussion to cover. What do you think a consent discussion would cover?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course I do. Some people think consent is all about rape.

I outlined some of the things I would want a consent discussion to cover. What do you think a consent discussion would cover?

A sex act without consent is rape.

anewme

I’m not going to quote your entire post, one eyed Jack.
The point I’m making is that we don’t know if the poster was making a joke or not.

There are some topics you don’t joke about, rape being one.

My point to Omackeral is a fair one, I don’t think it’s harsh, you can’t question someone’s integrity and character and expect them just to accept it. I’ve asked him what exactly I’ve said in this thread about Rape culture that’s deluded or dangerous.?

How do you know it was a joke? You don’t.

Why do you think the poster was banned by the way?

Where in the thread have I said anywhere I believe that a Rape culture does exist? So I’m not sure why that’s being attributed to me.

Finally, if a friend or someone you know or someone you don’t know does confide in you or you read they are concerned about taking their life, please treat them with respect and don’t give the After Hours response.. “off you fck”

Mysterypunter

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Here we go again... Ireland’s “rape culture” makes headlines yet again. Hey irish men, could you just stop raping women for five minutes please.

Hashtag mee too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-has-a-rape-culture-woman-who-was-assaulted-calls-for-more-victim-protection-1.4033034

I don't think we do, South Africa has.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

A sex act without consent is rape.

Yeah that’s a violation of consent. Any discussion of consent would have to cover rape. But that’s not the focus of the discussion.

What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah that’s a violation of consent. Any discussion of consent would have to cover rape. But that’s not the focus of the discussion.

What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?

I feel like I'm talking to a character on father ted :S

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I feel like I'm talking to a character on father ted :S

Ok. The question I asked was:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent? Seems a reasonable question given the topic and given the fact that you said I don’t know what it is. Feel free to have a go at answering the question.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. The question I asked was:
What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent? Seems a reasonable question given the topic and given the fact that you said I don’t know what it is. Feel free to have a go at answering the question.

Have you taken a woman without consent in your definition?

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Have you taken a woman without consent in your definition?

I’ll answer your question but I’ll ask you to answer mine first:

What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, duh. But you misread the post you quoted. I said anyone can be sexually assaulted. But only a man can commit a rape in Irish law. So it would be ridiculous to teach the law wrongly just to satisfy your personal preference. I gave my opinion on the law



Now you and Reviews... are in disagreement on this point but you keep addressing your concerns to me. You’d be much better chatting to each other.

They don’t want any negative coverage of boys sexuality lest boys believe they’re rapists in the waiting. But you want to tech the “toxic” elements of both men and women.

I would take a different approach where I wouldn’t call boys rapists or women toxic manipulative people. I’d just talk about healthy and unhealthy behaviours. Unhealthy behaviours would include manipulation, controlling behaviours, abuse and violence etc.

I’m not sure if that’s not explicitly pointed enough for you. But I’d neither call men rapists or women manipulative creatures. I’d just talk about the behaviours and how to spot them and that’s they understand that they don’t deserve to be treated with those behaviours.

I didn't misread your post.

We both agree that both genders are capable of sexual assault, therefore it is not unreasonable to educate our children to that affect, regardless of the law, it is not illegal to bully another child but we educate our kids that bullying is wrong.

I don't disagree with you with regard to consent classes and how is best to educate our young people, what I would be concerned about is the motivations of the people who are shaping the narrative of these consent classes, Feminists should be kept away from the education of young men in particular as they have convinced themselves that gendered violence is one way and a consequence of patriarchal oppression, these unhinged individuals shouldn't be allowed near schools in my opinion let alone our young boys.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’ll answer your question but I’ll ask you to answer mine first:

What do you think consent is about and what would you focus on in a Discussion about consent?

Consent is about rape. That's my opinion

anewme

Silentcorner wrote: »

I didn't misread your post.

We both agree that both genders are capable of sexual assault, therefore it is not unreasonable to educate our children to that affect, regardless of the law, it is not illegal to bully another child but we educate our kids that bullying is wrong.

I don't disagree with you with regard to consent classes and how is best to educate our young people, what I would be concerned about is the motivations of the people who are shaping the narrative of these consent classes, Feminists should be kept away from the education of young men in particular as they have convinced themselves that gendered violence is one way and a consequence of patriarchal oppression, these unhinged individuals shouldn't be allowed near schools in my opinion let alone our young boys.

Question in relation to your comment on feminists, if you don’t mind?

What is your definition of a feminist?

Do you think there are a lot of them in education currently or would they turn upif there were consent classes scheduled.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Consent is about rape. That's my opinion

You’re wrong. Rape is only one aspect of consent. Consent is much more broad than rape.

But it’s no wonder you’re terrified of the discussion telling men they’re all potential rapists. That’s what a consent discussion designed by you, would be about.

The answer to the question you asked on your last post, is no. But with the benefit of hindsight and discussing consent, I probably did a bit more “ah go on” as a young lad than I should have.

I see consent as an important topic.

Silentcorner

anewme wrote: »

Question in relation to your comment on feminists, if you don’t mind?

What is your definition of a feminist?

Do you think there are a lot of them in education currently or would they turn upif there were consent classes scheduled.

Honestly, I have no idea what Feminism is anymore, it has moved away from it's dictionary definition, nobody seems to be able to define it which makes it handy for those who identify as one....you get to be an a la carte Feminist!

I fear radicals, in religion or ideology, feminism is an ideology, radicals hold unreasonable positions and tend to pursue power and influence, and children are often the battleground for these people. I fear that, and yes, absolutely, Radical Feminists are exactly the kinds of people who would seek to influence the narratives that are being forced to our children.

I was taught by a Feminist back in the 80s, now she was an excellent teacher and a very bright woman but she could not resist introducing feminist narratives every chance she could which was wrong, she would persistently remind us that girls were smarter than boys, more mature than boys etc etc...nowadays, I believe that it is far worse and I would be concerned for the welfare of our young boys in particular in this environment...there is a reason why girls are outperforming boys in our education system for several decades now and no one cares.

p1akuw47h5r3it

anewme wrote: »

There are some topics you don’t joke about, rape being one.

”

Are there? Why can't one joke about rape?

1800_Ladladlad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Catholic church.

I'm a Catholic. Most of my family are too. None of which have been molested, interfered with or have been raped or known to have raped another person. That is not our cultural set of values and beliefs which is thought and shared.


Again :

wrote:

Omackeral Past historical Church abuses does not equate to Modern Ireland having a rape culture. Next.

Calhoun

cloudatlas wrote: »

Rape is severe but what the people who coined the phrase are saying is that’s the apex of societal norms that promote a culture that allows dehumanising of women, normalising women as ‘others’ weak sluts who are only playthings for men. The woman in the article was used by the two men as a plaything not as a person, she was dehumanised, how did the guys who raped her get to the point where in their heads they formulated the decision to do what they did to another person. I know this is a stretch for you but it wasn’t because they were surrounded by respect for women. Reports of sexual assaults in the London Underground have gone up. Are all these men mentally ill outliers and rapists, not necessarily but they feel entitled to touch someone inappropriately without consent where does that ‘right’ come from? Please answer that. This isn’t a ‘debate’. Bleating about a term coined in the 1970’s that isn’t going to go away. It doesn’t matter what the term is you’d complain anyway if it was ‘a culture of misogyny’ ‘toxic masculinity’ no term would be to your liking and we’d always be stuck on ‘debating’ language and terms rather than debating why these things happen. But if we got to why it’s always that person was disturbed or mentally ill or sure it’s okay to say ‘sluts’ or sure she just had her leg and arse felt up in a club while she was ordering a drink it’s normal and doesn’t feed into and is not fed by any thing else because anything I do like grabbing a woman I’ve had no interaction with or calling women a slut is normal but those other guys are mentally ill.

By the way the term ‘loose’ is out of date and antiquated. What you’re talking about is ‘sex positive’ behaviour, but if you aren’t sex positive or afraid then it’s ‘loose’.

Also I don’t appreciate the censorship of language here by all the guys who are triggered snowflakes on this thread, reminds me of the gay marriage referendum where the use of The word homophobe was being censored by the conservatives who didn’t like their behaviour being named.

I don't think there is any point in me coming back to anything that you have said in the first paragraph, you have pretty much made up your mind on your stance. Good for you.

Thank you for updating my label vocabulary.

You don't have to appreciate anything, its a discussion forum. You might find the right kind of echo chamber that will re-enforce the attitudes and opinions you want on twitter.

Omackeral

anewme wrote: »

No no Omerackeral, lets be fair here. You are the person who questioned my integrity by saying:

"I hope you just trained and aren't trusted to advise or educate on these matters because your attitude is frankly deluded at best and dangerous at worst. "

Sorry for late response. My comment was based on you calling for the Gardai to be involved based on a poster's off-colour humour/post/whatever. If you, as a professional, think that's a fair and weighted response to an anonymous joke on boards.ie then it would worry me. It wasn't threatening, it wasn't directed at anyone. The mods carded the person and that's it. That's where my basis of saying what I said came from.

anewme

Silentcorner wrote: »

Honestly, I have no idea what Feminism is anymore, it has moved away from it's dictionary definition, nobody seems to be able to define it which makes it handy for those who identify as one....you get to be an a la carte Feminist!

I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.

Omackeral

This brilliant bit has me in stitches every single time. It goes to show how taboo it is i.e. not accepted. Would the gag work if he said ''there's been a murder up there?''. I don't think so. Rape is shocking. That's the point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAW8Tzt28Ts

anewme

Omackeral wrote: »

Sorry for late response. My comment was based on you calling for the Gardai to be involved based on a poster's off-colour humour/post/whatever. If you, as a professional, think that's a fair and weighted response to an anonymous joke on boards.ie then it would worry me. It wasn't threatening, it wasn't directed at anyone. The mods carded the person and that's it. That's where my basis of saying what I said came from.

Thanks for the response.

We be already said we don’t know for definite it is a joke, so Im using my own judgement on it and reported the post. It could be taken differently by people who believe or agree with the sentiment. You don’t have to agree and that’s fair enough.

Anyway, no point in going on about it, as poster banned and it’s probably a different discussion about social media posts in general rather than the topic here.

Silentcorner

anewme wrote: »

I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.

Absolutely not, I can empathize with any mother of young children, some of whom would love to stay at home and rear them, and some who want to return to work as soon as they can...what we have is we quickly put all mothers in a position where they have to think about this under financial pressure which isn't right...I don't believe that in this country we do enough to support those women in whatever choice they make.

Staying at home can be rewarding but it will come at a cost down the road when they return to the workforce, I would like to see these women receive some kind reward for making that decision, be that free education to help them return to the workforce with more qualifications than they had when they left, which would benefit the family not just the mother.

I would also like to see the working mother supported better by the state in the form of affordable childcare, which would benefit all the family, not just the mother.

NIMAN

The more I think about the headline of that article, the more annoyed I get.

The liberals get upset now if you say a word out of place, or something even remotely controversial, but someone is allowed to say that an entire country has a rape culture, and go unchallenged.

seamus

NIMAN wrote: »

The more I think about the headline of that article, the more annoyed I get.

The liberals get upset now if you say a word out of place, or something even remotely controversial, but someone is allowed to say that an entire country has a rape culture, and go unchallenged.

How is it unchallenged?

Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?

I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"

Silentcorner

seamus wrote: »

How is it unchallenged?

Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?

I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"

Again, it is the lack of balance in all of these narratives that is concerning, if you are going to present a viewpoint you should present an alternative, that is what a balanced media narrative would look like...

I can't get over the amount of people who are unable to recognize how unbalanced our media has become and what effect that has on public discourse!

This (as in Boards) is not mainstream media, it is an online forum, big big big difference and well you know it!

One eyed Jack

anewme wrote: »

I’m not going to quote your entire post, one eyed Jack.
The point I’m making is that we don’t know if the poster was making a joke or not.

There are some topics you don’t joke about, rape being one.

My point to Omackeral is a fair one, I don’t think it’s harsh, you can’t question someone’s integrity and character and expect them just to accept it. I’ve asked him what exactly I’ve said in this thread about Rape culture that’s deluded or dangerous.?

How do you know it was a joke? You don’t.

Why do you think the poster was banned by the way?

Where in the thread have I said anywhere I believe that a Rape culture does exist? So I’m not sure why that’s being attributed to me.

Finally, if a friend or someone you know or someone you don’t know does confide in you or you read they are concerned about taking their life, please treat them with respect and don’t give the After Hours response.. “off you fck”

We have very different standards anewme and that’s why we’re unlikely to reach any sort of an agreement here.

I do know that they were making a joke. I have no reason to think otherwise. I don’t think there’s anything that should be off-limits when it comes to people making jokes about it because you should know that’s precisely how some people cope with traumatic experiences. Telling people they can’t make jokes about something immediately inhibits their ability to communicate openly, honestly and authentically, in their own language, which doesn’t generally tend to be the same language used in a professional capacity when talking about these issues. That’s why I actually do question the wisdom of people who purport to be experts on the issue and the language they use to talk about these issues which is often very different to the language used by people who don’t have their training and qualifications. It’s precisely why I question the wisdom of Dr. Cliona Saidler suggesting that “we really need to say that young boys can also be a danger to young girls, it isn’t all just fun”. I don’t expect to question her authority to make such a statement and expect that she should just accept it, but it also for me at least calls into question her integrity and whether or not her interests are more in addressing issues in society with regards to rape and sexual violence, or is she more interested in promoting her own political and social beliefs. Because what she’s at there, leads to this kind of thing -

TUSLA: Playing a dangerous game with children’s lives

Those are the kinds of policies that come from promoting nonsense in Irish society about “rape culture”. I don’t expect you should understand, but just because you have qualifications and training in any given area, it doesn’t necessarily follow that your integrity should be beyond question. If you open that door, you have to be willing to accept that people have every right to question your integrity and character in the same way as you have every right to question theirs and suggest that Boards should capture their IP address and report them to the Gardai.

Why do I think the poster was banned? Likely because their intent was misinterpreted as making a joke about rape, when the way I interpreted it was they were making a joke about an individual’s take on what she calls “rape culture”. Boards have also reminded people on numerous occasions that there’s no such thing as freedom of speech on this site, and they are well within their rights to remove a posters ability to contribute to the site or to impose sanctions if they feel a poster is behaving like a dick. How they’re making those determinations appears to be all over the place these days, but that’s for another discussion.

Finally, how I treat anyone is a judgement call for me to make. I’ll take your advice in the spirit it was intended, but I see no reason to use it. If someone says to me that they are going to take their own life, then I have no respect for them whatsoever, nor do I have any concern for their welfare. My response of “off you fcuk” has always been based upon the fact that I have no respect for anyone who expresses to me that they are contemplating taking their own life. The After Hours response lately appears to be of the more along the lines of suggesting that suicide should be socially acceptable. It’s a detachment from reality that’s prevalent among people who refer to themselves as “professionals” and “experts” too, much like the detachment from reality in suggesting that people shouldn’t make jokes about things which society finds distasteful or disturbing. The reality is that they do, because the narrative being portrayed in the article in the opening post is only one perspective, and if you want to actually address social issues such as rape and sexual assault, then getting hung up on policing language and saying it’s unfair that people question your integrity is making any discussion all about you having your say and you not having to listen to what other people are actually trying to communicate to you in their own way because they’re not communicating as you would want them to, in language you understand, using your preferred terms.

If people questioning your integrity offends you or you think it’s unfair, then surely it is incumbent upon you to extend that same courtesy you expect people to give you, to other people who don’t share your perspective, given you don’t know anything of them either? At least that’s holding people to the same standards as you expect you should be treated.

Amirani

anewme wrote: »

I've trained in a professional capacity in this area and everything you and Wibbs are saying here is totally against what I've been trained in.

How do you know better than professionals?

Argumentum ab auctoritate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

There's many "professionals" that disagree with you. So just saying you're a professional doesn't make your argument automatically valid or correct.

NIMAN

seamus wrote: »

How is it unchallenged?

Are you not here right now, "challenging" it?

I think what you mean to say is, "I am deeply offended by what this person has said and think they should not be allowed to say it"

I can guarantee you if this woman appeared on any RTe radio or TV show, she could say that and not be challenged. Fact.

I wonder did the reporter who spoke to her for the article even address this, or are they just happy they got another clickbait item for their website?

One eyed Jack

Amirani wrote: »

Argumentum ab auctoritate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

There's many "professionals" that disagree with you. So just saying you're a professional doesn't make your argument automatically valid or correct.

To be fair to her, anewme didn’t actually make an argument from authority. She made the point that she has received training in the area and the training she has received goes against what other posters are saying. I’m no fan of pissing contests where someone just says that “as a <insert whatever here>”, as that constitutes an argument from authority in attempting to lend their opinions more weight, but what anewme did was simply pointing out that what other people are saying contradicts her training in the area and questioning why other posters would contradict the opinions of people who are experts in the area whom she has received training from.

It’s a valid point to make and a legitimate question to ask, in the same way as you’re pointing out that there are experts in the area who disagree with the experts anewme has received her training from. If someone is going to put forward an opinion then they should expect to be questioned as opposed to anything they say simply being taken at face value, especially if they’re putting their opinions out there on social media where they are in the public domain.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You’re wrong. Rape is only one aspect of consent. Consent is much more broad than rape.

But it’s no wonder you’re terrified of the discussion telling men they’re all potential rapists. That’s what a consent discussion designed by you, would be about.

The answer to the question you asked on your last post, is no. But with the benefit of hindsight and discussing consent, I probably did a bit more “ah go on” as a young lad than I should have.

I see consent as an important topic.

What in the world are you going on about? If you break 'consent' then it is rape. You can't belittle people by saying they are 'breaking consent' to promote good behaviour and talk about things that are not breaking consent. It's just a haphazard way of training somebody and bellitling the breaking of consent.



Goodness gracious, I feel like I'm talking to some kind of sockpuppet who's trying to amplify voices. You're funny, don't get me wrong, and you're kind of admirable, but, as I said before, I genuinely don't think you have any opinion of your own.



I also find it disturbing that you have admitted to pressuring a women into sexual activities.



But, as I am vaguley interested, what would you teach in consent classes?

Reviews and Books Galore

anewme wrote: »

I was wondering what people thought, so it’s an interesting answer. I would have thought similar. Was just wondering if people thought it was a normal woman who wants to work and not stay at home with children etc.

I see a feminist as somebody who sees sexism as benefiting men and sees gender relations in a top down manner with men at the top and women at the bottom.



Even in the best intentions, it's a bad mindset to have when educating boys.

Boggles

NIMAN wrote: »

I can guarantee you if this woman appeared on any RTe radio or TV show, she could say that and not be challenged. Fact.

Making up a hypothetical situation is not a fact.

But anyway am I the only one who can't read the article because of a paywall?

Any one got a link that isn't?

Calhoun

Boggles wrote: »

Making up a hypothetical situation is not a fact.

But anyway am I the only one who can't read the article because of a paywall?

Any one got a link that isn't?

I think you must have read your 3 articles with the website as i am able to access it still.

NIMAN

A woman who was drugged and raped nearly two decades ago in a Waterford hotel has called for more protections for sexual assault victims.

Writing on Twitter this week to mark the anniversary of what happened to her, Linda Hayden said she never reported it to gardahen, or since, saying she refused to give her attackers “power over me”.

Ms Hayden had stayed up with her brother for a late drink after a wedding but believes her drink was “spiked” later by two men who “picked me out of that crowded lobby” and waited for the drug “to kick in”.

“I remembered two men holding me up in a corridor in the hotel and my head was heavy.

“We met a member of staff who asked where they were taking me and they said ‘She’s locked, we’re taking her to her room’.

“The next thing I remember is coming to during it and crying out because I didn’t know where I was and what was happening to me. I was saying ‘Please, stop’.

“I must have passed out after that.”

She woke up at 6.30pm: “I tried to get out of bed and fell to the floor.


“I wasn’t able to stand so I had to crawl to the bathroom and into the shower where I just sat for ages trying to clear my head.”

Having told no one, six months later, she went to a sexual health clinic where she was diagnosed with gonorrhoea and genital warts that she believes have left her infertile.

Ms Hayden’s marriage a few years later to “the first guy that asked me” lasted only five years before collapsing, and she still suffers, she says, from depression and anxiety.

Often, court cases and media coverage imply that women “need to mind yourselves if you’re going out for drinks, you might get raped”, but men will get the benefit of the doubt, if they “come from good stock”.


Later, she forgave her attackers : “My dad – he’s a survivor of clerical child sex abuse – said, in order to move on you have to forgive or you’ll be stuck with that anger forever. So I forgave them; they had no power over me anymore.”

Re-traumatised
The nine-week long 2018 Belfast rape trial “re-traumatised” her and many other victims, she said.

“I was so angry, I needed to do something.”

The day after it ended she set up the Action Against Sexual Violence Ireland group.

Since speaking out on Twitter, Ms Hayden has been contacted by about 50 women and men, including those who have self-harmed, or those with loved ones who were attacked “but who do not know how to speak to them about it”.

The review into the conduct of rape trials is welcome, but taking too long, while the media should avoid shaming victims.

Consent classes should be given in primary schools, she believes.

Nearly two decades on, Ireland still has “a rape culture”, she says.

“If you post on Twitter about rape, people accept it but if you say it to someone’s face they don’t know how to respond.”

Boggles

Thanks.

That is some very selective quoting by the "journalist" TBF.

Either way she was drugged and gang raped by the sounds of it, it's no surprise her opinion could be a little colored.

She needs to be pitied more than ridiculed.

NIMAN

Of course its a terrible event and is life changing, but to state the country has a rape culture is still way off the mark.

Reviews and Books Galore

Boggles wrote: »

Thanks.

That is some very selective quoting by the "journalist" TBF.

Either way she was drugged and gang raped by the sounds of it, it's no surprise her opinion could be a little colored.

She needs to be pitied more than ridiculed.

I dunno, if a man was gang raped by an african man, would you let him educate young black men not to rape?



A bad thing may have happened to her, though there is no proof, but it does not mean we should always see her through the lens of the bad thing.

Calhoun

NIMAN wrote: »

Of course its a terrible event and is life changing, but to state the country has a rape culture is still way off the mark.

If some of the earlier posting on the thread is true she is someone who has obviously suffered allot from what happened. There is a risk when we discuss topics like this we focus so hard on the broader view that we forget about the people behind it.

I think the bigger picture to look at here is the media who continually run these stories from a perspective that is click bait and drives division.

Boggles

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I dunno, if a man was gang raped by an african man, would you let him educate young black men not to rape?

I'm struggling to see what the nationality of someone has to do with it, TBH.

But if a man was gang raped he is entitled to tell his story and hold an opinion, forgive the turn of phrase but he has earned it.

That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with him though. It also doesn't mean he should be torn apart and ridiculed either.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

What in the world are you going on about? If you break 'consent' then it is rape. You can't belittle people by saying they are 'breaking consent' to promote good behaviour and talk about things that are not breaking consent. It's just a haphazard way of training somebody and bellitling the breaking of consent.



Goodness gracious, I feel like I'm talking to some kind of sockpuppet who's trying to amplify voices. You're funny, don't get me wrong, and you're kind of admirable, but, as I said before, I genuinely don't think you have any opinion of your own.



I also find it disturbing that you have admitted to pressuring a women into sexual activities.



But, as I am vaguley interested, what would you teach in consent classes?

I’m genuinely surprised that you think consent is all about rape. Why would you call it a consent discussion and not a rape discussion? I’m pretty sure the other posters know that you’re only looking at one aspect of consent, But they won’t go against the narrative.

I admit that I said “ah go on” when I was young. Maybe you never did anything like that as a young lad. Maybe you’re playing holier than thou for the sake of the discussion.

What would include for the consent discussion? I’ve answered this in other posts (posts which you’ve quoted so I doubt you actually read them before disagreeing with them).

To answer the question again, I would include the discussion about consent as part of an ongoing discussion on sex, sexuality, relationships.
It would cover: the concept of consent,
what it means to consent and how to think about what you’re comfortable doing or not doing and why.
How consent is communicated, seeking consent, giving consent and receiving consent.
What to do if you change your mind having previously given consent and what to do if someone withdraws consent.
How consent works over time. Can consent be assumed tomorrow because it was given Today?
How to deal with pressure, both internal and external.
And yes, of course, the consequences of violating consent. Consequences in terms of the harm you can cause to another person and legal consequences.

That’s not an exhaustive list but it gives a good overview.

So what would a consent class designed by you consist of? I imagine it would be all about rape. But I’d be interested to know what you think.

pinkyeye

The chan chan man wrote: »

Careful...there once was a boy who cried wolf..

I detest this kind of statement.

It's like "careful now calling rape culture or we might rape you".

Kind of proves the point if anything. :rolleyes:

Reviews and Books Galore

Boggles wrote: »

I'm struggling to see what the nationality of someone has to do with it, TBH.

But if a man was gang raped he is entitled to tell his story and hold an opinion, forgive the turn of phrase but he has earned it.

That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with him though. It also doesn't mean he should be torn apart and ridiculed either.

I was trying to tie it into how black male sexuality was tied into the rape and there are movements to turn it into somehting better and more in the black man's power.



Yeah, I think if it leads into rascism/ shaming half the population, he has not 'earned it'.

Veritas Libertas

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be fair to her, anewme didn’t actually make an argument from authority.

I've trained in a professional capacity in this area and everything you and Wibbs are saying here is totally against what I've been trained in.
How do you know better than professionals?

I believe the bold is the argument to authority; how do you know better than the professionals(like me) that also hold my opinion.

If such a statement is made, I believe it only fair for anewme to mention where or who conducted this training.

Then at least it would advance this tangent of conversation.