unacceptable level of irregular social welfare payments

weldoninhio · 03-10-2019 1:25pm

Graces7 wrote: »

But that, ie if they are genuine or not, is not your call to make. It really isn't. Nor is any accusation that they are defrauding.

There is a simple to access procedure for reporting welfare fraud. Trial and judgement by posts on the internet says more re the poster than it does re the recipients.

I've reported family members before. Do you know what happened, absolutely nothing.

ELM327 · 03-10-2019 1:52pm

end of the road wrote: »

if they are been given the money legally then it is not being misapropriated.
also, once someone receives money then it becomes theirs and is no longer yours.

A logic used by many groups of people alright.
Nefarious groups

James Brown · 03-10-2019 2:17pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That's an important distinction that most lefty liberals dont get

Tax avoidance: declaring only relevant earnings and using legitimate expenses to offset where possible
Tax evasion: not declaring all earnings that are required

Two very different things.
I've done both and paid the penalty on the second when I pushed the line a little too far. Which is the way it should be. Without rules and boundaries we descend into anarchy where everything is free for those who couldnt be arsed working, the country is broke, and borrowing to sustain this.... oh wait, welcome to 2019 in Ireland.

So lefty liberals who own all the media and the like don't know business? I think you're assigning knowledge to people based on whether or not they want to Make America Great Again. Odd. Just to point out Fine Gael, not lefty liberal types, didn't pay tax for 9 years. There's your spongers right there. TBF it wasn't avoidance nor evasion, they simply didn't pay any tax for 9 years.

ELM327 · 03-10-2019 2:20pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So lefty liberals who own all the media and the like don't know business? I think you're assigning knowledge to people based on whether or not they want to Make America Great Again. Odd. Just to point out Fine Gael, not lefty liberal types, didn't pay tax for 9 years. There's your spongers right there. TBF it wasn't avoidance nor evasion, they simply didn't pay any tax for 9 years.

What does a triggered rant look like?

end of the road · 03-10-2019 4:15pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I've reported family members before. Do you know what happened, absolutely nothing.

if nothing happened then presumably it was because it was deemed by the powers that be that there was nothing requiring further investigation.

ELM327 wrote: »

A logic used by many groups of people alright.
Nefarious groups

no just logical ones.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-10-2019 4:20pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

only people on JSA would have to be 'humiliated'
it might encourage them to get a job.

If you lost your job, I have no doubt you would be looking for another one straight away. No doubts there. BUT you could still have a short time period where you are in receipt of JSA. Think about it for a second - would you really be okay with not being given cold, hard currency? Even if stamps were issued only after being on JSA for a while, it might take time for you to find another job. Would you be okay with only being allowed to spend the allowance on specified things and not being given currency to do so?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-10-2019 4:29pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

No one has ever given out about genuine cases. It's the ones defrauding (illegal) the system that people give out about. How come no matter how many times people say this, you'll always have someone that completely ignores it??

Eric Cartman said on this very thread that if he was granted a personal exemption from taxation, he’d stop opposing “most spending”. Most spending. His actual words. That’s toy-out-the-pram stuff right there. Let’s not pretend that this thread started in a rational place.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just trying to wake people up to the waste. Until the government give me a personal exemption from paying any tax, I will continue to oppose most spending. Welfare is the elephant in the room and the black hole of money, so it gets top priority.

Eric Cartman · 04-10-2019 11:00am

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If you lost your job, I have no doubt you would be looking for another one straight away. No doubts there. BUT you could still have a short time period where you are in receipt of JSA. Think about it for a second - would you really be okay with not being given cold, hard currency? Even if stamps were issued only after being on JSA for a while, it might take time for you to find another job. Would you be okay with only being allowed to spend the allowance on specified things and not being given currency to do so?

If I lost my job id get JSB for a year before being moved to JSA. JSA is the one for people whove been on the dole more than working

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-10-2019 12:03pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If I lost my job id get JSB for a year before being moved to JSA. JSA is the one for people whove been on the dole more than working

So, as I said, if it takes longer than anticipated to get back into the workforce, would you be happy to be given vouchers rather than currency? A year goes by fast.

ELM327 · 04-10-2019 12:16pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So, as I said, if it takes longer than anticipated to get back into the workforce, would you be happy to be given vouchers rather than currency? A year goes by fast.

Yes
I was on JSB for 9 months in 2008-9, I remember the feeling of disbelief when I was handed 204.30 in cash with no questions as to how I was spending it.

Madness

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-10-2019 12:21pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes
I was on JSB for 9 months in 2008-9, I remember the feeling of disbelief when I was handed 204.30 in cash with no questions as to how I was spending it.

Madness

Think of the cost of administration of monitoring the allowance’s spending. And the surveillance required.

You say you’d be fine with that and I have no reason to doubt you, but I very much would not be okay with it.

And, even if they questioned you, everyone would just have stock answers prepared.

weldoninhio · 04-10-2019 12:23pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Think of the cost of administration of monitoring the allowance’s spending. And the surveillance required.

You say you’d be fine with that and I have no reason to doubt you, but I very much would not be okay with it.

Monitoring?? You get a prepaid card that you cannot buy alcohol, cigarettes or use in bookies etc. Hardly groundbreaking technology needed.

ELM327 · 04-10-2019 12:30pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Think of the cost of administration of monitoring the allowance’s spending. And the surveillance required.

You say you’d be fine with that and I have no reason to doubt you, but I very much would not be okay with it.

And, even if they questioned you, everyone would just have stock answers prepared.

Shop vouchers with barcodes allowed or barcodes excluded. Not difficult.
Shops do it already for clubcard offers

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-10-2019 12:35pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Monitoring?? You get a prepaid card that you cannot buy alcohol, cigarettes or use in bookies etc. Hardly groundbreaking technology needed.

ELM327 answered honestly. I am curious about advocates of this notion so I’m going to ask any I can.

You lose your job, you are really trying to get another but as you trying, time elapses and you move to this voucher system. Would you be comfortable with your spending being controlled in this way? Truthfully?

crossman47 · 04-10-2019 12:36pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes
I was on JSB for 9 months in 2008-9, I remember the feeling of disbelief when I was handed 204.30 in cash with no questions as to how I was spending it.

Madness

Why would you be questioned on how you would spend it? After paying for food, heat and accommodation you were highly unlikely to have anything left.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-10-2019 12:36pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Shop vouchers with barcodes allowed or barcodes excluded. Not difficult.
Shops do it already for clubcard offers

Probably not difficult, sure. But with plenty of costs attached. Difficulty isn’t really the problem. Anything like this comes with administrative costs.

And would you be okay with being demonised for maybe wanting something pleasurable once in a while?

OldGoat · 04-10-2019 12:39pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Monitoring?? You get a prepaid card that you cannot buy alcohol, cigarettes or use in bookies etc. Hardly groundbreaking technology needed.

ELM327 wrote: »

Shop vouchers with barcodes allowed or barcodes excluded. Not difficult.
Shops do it already for clubcard offers

Please, lets not forget our ability to turn any commodity into cash. Having vouchers or cards is no bar to a determined gambler, junkie, alcoholic or whatever other activity you are attempting to control.

ELM327 · 04-10-2019 12:47pm

crossman47 wrote: »

Why would you be questioned on how you would spend it? After paying for food, heat and accommodation you were highly unlikely to have anything left.

For example. my first 204.30 went on seasons 1-4 of house on DVD and some pints.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Probably not difficult, sure. But with plenty of costs attached. Difficulty isn’t really the problem. Anything like this comes with administrative costs.

And would you be okay with being demonised for maybe wanting something pleasurable once in a while?

Yes, the dole should be sustenance between jobs, not luxury

hetuzozaho · 04-10-2019 12:51pm

ELM327 wrote: »

For example. my first 204.30 went on seasons 1-4 of house on DVD and some pints.

And the world didn't end

Don't be so hard on yourself!

ELM327 · 04-10-2019 12:52pm

hetuzozaho wrote: »

And the world didn't end

Don't be so hard on yourself!

Well it nearly did around that time, the country is still probably paying interest on that payment.

I shouldnt have been able to do that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 04-10-2019 12:53pm

ELM327 wrote: »

For example. my first 204.30 went on seasons 1-4 of house on DVD and some pints.

Yes, the dole should be sustenance between jobs, not luxury

If a person can budget well on the dole, why not use the surplus occasionally for something enjoyable? The purchase will be taxed too.

I’ve taken holidays on welfare. I saved the money so feel no hint of guilt.

hetuzozaho · 04-10-2019 12:54pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Well it nearly did around that time.

The crash? I think you're overestimating your impact

Too hard on yourself I think,

Tony EH · 04-10-2019 1:09pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes
I was on JSB for 9 months in 2008-9, I remember the feeling of disbelief when I was handed 204.30 in cash with no questions as to how I was spending it.

Madness

That's part of the reason why you pay taxes you numpty. Your JSB is part of your tax money getting returned to you.

Can't believe some people are really this stupid.

Tony EH · 04-10-2019 1:12pm

ELM327 wrote: »

For example. my first 204.30 went on seasons 1-4 of house on DVD and some pints.

That's not the fault of the system.

That's something YOU chose to do.

blanch152 · 04-10-2019 1:32pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If a person can budget well on the dole, why not use the surplus occasionally for something enjoyable? The purchase will be taxed too.

I’ve taken holidays on welfare. I saved the money so feel no hint of guilt.

I don't think there is another country in the world where social welfare is generous enough to allow someone to save enough to take a holiday no matter how frugal they are.

That is essentially the problem - we have some of the highest social welfare rates in the world, which, when added to free travel, medical cards, etc, mean that the standard of living of many on welfare is higher than the standard of living of many working. I know an awful lot of working people who haven't had a holiday in several years.

weldoninhio · 04-10-2019 1:39pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

ELM327 answered honestly. I am curious about advocates of this notion so I’m going to ask any I can.

You lose your job, you are really trying to get another but as you trying, time elapses and you move to this voucher system. Would you be comfortable with your spending being controlled in this way? Truthfully?

Yes, I'm getting free food to survive on. Why would i not be grateful??

ELM327 · 04-10-2019 2:08pm

Tony EH wrote: »

That's part of the reason why you pay taxes you numpty. Your JSB is part of your tax money getting returned to you.

Can't believe some people are really this stupid.

If you're going to resort to calling posters numpty and stupid I think that the quantity of further worthwhile posts from you are inversely correlated to the quantity of nonsense you've spouted to date.

Tony EH wrote: »

That's not the fault of the system.

That's something YOU chose to do.

It absolutely is the fault of the system, it should not be possible

Tony EH · 04-10-2019 2:15pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If you're going to resort to calling posters numpty and stupid I think that the quantity of further worthwhile posts from you are inversely correlated to the quantity of nonsense you've spouted to date.

You're pissing and moaning about getting JSB for 9 months, which is based on your contributions in taxes. You're actually getting some of your tax back when you get turfed out of work and you're trying to draw a negative from that. That sounds like you're just more interested in having a moan instead of equipping yourself with some information and making an actual point on the matter.

So yes, I think that's stupid. Really stupid.

ELM327 wrote: »

It absolutely is the fault of the system, it should not be possible

If it's a fault at all, it's a YOU fault.

Geuze · 04-10-2019 2:31pm

Tony EH wrote: »

That's part of the reason why you pay taxes you numpty. Your JSB is part of your tax money getting returned to you.

Yes, although to be 100% correct, JSB is financed by PRSI, not taxes.

I think we need more social insurance, and less social assistance.

Increase JSB in next Budget, leave JSA rates alone.

Increase SPC, do not increase the non-con pension.

Geuze · 04-10-2019 2:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think there is another country in the world where social welfare is generous enough to allow someone to save enough to take a holiday no matter how frugal they are.

That is essentially the problem - we have some of the highest social welfare rates in the world, which, when added to free travel, medical cards, etc, mean that the standard of living of many on welfare is higher than the standard of living of many working. I know an awful lot of working people who haven't had a holiday in several years.

There are several countries where welfare rates for working-age adults are 50-90% of former pay.

But the difference is they do not last forever.

USA - unemployment payment is 50% of former wages, but for 26 weeks.

I have seen unemployment benefits of 90% of former pay in some countries.

It's only here that the longer a working-age adult is on welfare, we reward them with more.

unacceptable level of irregular social welfare payments

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