unacceptable level of irregular social welfare payments

Tony EH

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, although to be 100% correct, JSB is financed by PRSI, not taxes.

I think we need more social insurance, and less social assistance.

Increase JSB in next Budget, leave JSA rates alone.

Increase SPC, do not increase the non-con pension.

Yes it's a persons stamps, or what used to be called stamps. The point one pays into that system and gets a certain return.

IMO that return should much longer than it is currently. It was deeply cynical of FG to reduce that payment from 12 months to just 9. Especially after we'd just had a financial crash caused by bad government and bad regulation.

Geuze

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think there is another country in the world where social welfare is generous enough to allow someone to save enough to take a holiday no matter how frugal they are.

That is essentially the problem - we have some of the highest social welfare rates in the world, which, when added to free travel, medical cards, etc, mean that the standard of living of many on welfare is higher than the standard of living of many working. I know an awful lot of working people who haven't had a holiday in several years.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=NRR

The Dutch give 74% of former earnings to somebody at 2 months unemployed from average earnings.

But after 5 years, then 36% of former average pay.

Eric Cartman

OldGoat wrote: »

Please, lets not forget our ability to turn any commodity into cash. Having vouchers or cards is no bar to a determined gambler, junkie, alcoholic or whatever other activity you are attempting to control.

This chestnut, solves itself handy when so many are at it that the value of those goods goes way down and your ‘buyer pool’ are mostly on the card too.
Also an added line of defence in offering retail staff a cash incentive to report suspicious purchases (10 packs of razor blades etc)

splinter65

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If I lost my job id get JSB for a year before being moved to JSA. JSA is the one for people whove been on the dole more than working

9 months. Not 1 year.

Graces7

[QUOTE=blanch152;111425482]I don't think there is another country in the world where social welfare is generous enough to allow someone to save enough to take a holiday no matter how frugal they are.

That is essentially the problem - we have some of the highest social welfare rates in the world, which, when added to free travel, medical cards, etc, mean that the standard of living of many on welfare is higher than the standard of living of many working. I know an awful lot of working people who haven't had a holiday in several years.[/QUOTE]

You can in the UK too. Depends of course on what kind of holiday .. we are not talking luxury hotel somewhere exotic. maybe B and B down south!

as for your last para;; I have nt had a holiday since … 1988. stayed with friends in France.

splinter65

Tony EH wrote: »

You're pissing and moaning about getting JSB for 9 months, which is based on your contributions in taxes. You're actually getting some of your tax back when you get turfed out of work and you're trying to draw a negative from that. That sounds like you're just more interested in having a moan instead of equipping yourself with some information and making an actual point on the matter.

So yes, I think that's stupid. Really stupid.



If it's a fault at all, it's a YOU fault.

It’s the PRSI people pay that entitles them to JSB, not tax.
But people who have never paid any PRSI, or tax either, get JSA at aged 18 €112 going up again at 24 and to the full amount at 26 and stay on it for years and years.
That’s the problem.

Tony EH

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s the PRSI people pay that entitles them to JSB, not tax.

Yes, I know. Exchange the word "tax" for "PRSI" accordingly.

splinter65 wrote: »

But people who have never paid any PRSI, or tax either, get JSA at aged 18 €112 going up again at 24 and to the full amount at 26 and stay on it for years and years.
That’s the problem.

It's means tested and it isn't as easy to get as one might think. In addition, the people who stay on it "for years and years" are an extreme minority of folk. The vast majority of people cannot wait to get off of it and start earning some real money.

However, my point is in response to the poster who was giving out about his JSB payment, which is an entitlement that everyone gets based on actual contributions to the system.

splinter65

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, I know. Exchange the word "tax" for "PRSI" accordingly.



It's means tested and it isn't as easy to get as one might think. In addition, the people who stay on it "for years and years" are an extreme minority of folk. The vast majority of people cannot wait to get off of it and start earning some real money.

However, my point is in response to the poster who was giving out about his JSB payment, which is an entitlement that everyone gets based on actual contributions to the system.

It’s not that difficult to get. If you are 18 and you left school in June and you live in a house where everyone else who lives there is either on a SW payment or is a dependent of someone on a SW payment, then in September you can apply for and you will get €112 JSA.
Usually this household is in the HAP scheme so the household HAP contribution will go up.
There are 1000s and 1000s of houses like this.
Payments coming into that house may include a combination of DA CA JSA OPF and the total household income may be quite large per week.
I know because I’ve worked in this field for 15 years.
If you come from a background where no one has ever worked then you consider that you are entitled to get allowances.
It’s nonsense to think that everyone on allowances is keen to work.

Tony EH

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s not that difficult to get.

That depends one one thinks "difficult" means.

splinter65 wrote: »

There are 1000s and 1000s of houses like this.

Perhaps. But it's still an extreme minority.

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s nonsense to think that everyone on allowances is keen to work.

Nobody has said that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think there is another country in the world where social welfare is generous enough to allow someone to save enough to take a holiday no matter how frugal they are.

That is essentially the problem - we have some of the highest social welfare rates in the world, which, when added to free travel, medical cards, etc, mean that the standard of living of many on welfare is higher than the standard of living of many working. I know an awful lot of working people who haven't had a holiday in several years.

I didn’t say I holidayed every year.

You know that the welfare system of 200+ countries doesn’t allow saving as a possibility? I doubt that.

Tony EH wrote: »

That's part of the reason why you pay taxes you numpty. Your JSB is part of your tax money getting returned to you.

Can't believe some people are really this stupid.

I know, why would have that poster be surprised to get that money when he paid enough PRSI to earn it?

Tony EH

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I know, why would have that poster be surprised to get that money when he paid enough PRSI to earn it?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It sounds like someone intent on going against their own best interest just to have a whinge about the "dole".

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Tony EH wrote: »

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It sounds like someone intent on going against their own best interest just to have a whinge about the "dole".

Well, this thread was founded on whinging (“If I don’t have to pay tax anymore, I’ll stop complaining”) so it was never going to make huge amounts of sense.

Geuze

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s the PRSI people pay that entitles them to JSB, not tax.
But people who have never paid any PRSI, or tax either, get JSA at aged 18 €112 going up again at 24 and to the full amount at 26 and stay on it for years and years.
That’s the problem.

Yes.

It surprises me that in the middle of a housing crisis, there are over 30,000 "builders" on JSA.

Padraig Mor

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps. But it's still an extreme minority.

Not really. Ireland the highest proportion of 'very low work intensity' households in the whole of the EU, i.e. households full of people not doing a tap - as described by the other poster:



edit: I don't know why the Ireland indicator has disappeared, but that's us at the very right!

If you look further into the report that this graph is drawn from, we see that Ireland has "a relatively low at risk of poverty rate once social transfers are taken into account". Drawing these two together we see that, essentially, Ireland has higher social welfare payments than most of Europe which ensure that the recipients are among the most comfortable of their peers in Europe, and that we also have the greatest numbers of homes full of people on the scratch (or some variant thereof). I would suggest that the former is the cause of the latter.

Geuze

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Not really. Ireland the highest proportion of 'very low work intensity' households in the whole of the EU, i.e. households full of people not doing a tap - as described by the other poster:

Indeed, we have lead the EU for many years in rates of VLWI.

We lead Europe in inactive adults.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2017/11/very-low-work-intensity-by-household.html

Tony EH

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Not really. Ireland the highest proportion of 'very low work intensity' households...

It's still an extreme minority of people. There's no way around that.

The vast, vast, majority of people do not want to be on the dole, no matter what form it takes. They would much rather be working and getting a more substantial amount of money to live on.

Geuze

http://www.publicpolicyarchive.ie/characteristics-of-households-with-very-little-wor/


How does Ireland compare to the rest of the EU?

In this note, we use EU-SILC data to compare the average characteristics of VLWI households and their members to the characteristics of non-VLWI households across 28 EU countries. The full report is here.

The main findings are

21 percent of individuals in Ireland were living in VLWI households compared to an EU average of 11 percent.

20 per cent percent of VLWI households in Ireland were single parent households, which is the second highest rate in the EU after the UK.

The percentage of single parent households among the non-VLWI group is much lower in Ireland at 7 percent, however by EU standards this is still quite high with only France, Luxembourg, Latvia and the UK being higher.
19 percent of out-of-work members of VLWI households aged over 25 report having never worked, compared to just 11 percent of out-of-work household members in non-VLWI households2
40 percent of VLWI household members over 16 years of age reported having a chronic illness compared to just 16 percent of non-VLWI household members. The rates of chronic illness in Ireland, in both VLWI and non-VLWI households, are relatively low compared to other EU countries.
20 percent of VLWI household members in Ireland receive disability payments compared to 9 percent of non-VLWI household members. The percentage of non-VLWI members in Ireland in receipt of disability benefit is the highest of all the EU-15 countries and the second highest out of 30 countries. Since 2008 there has been a decline in the percentage of VLWI households claiming disability benefit in Ireland, falling from over 30 percent in 2008 to approximately 20 percent in 2014.
38 percent of VLWI household members aged over 25 were educated above secondary level, compared to 63 percent of non-VLWI household members. Ireland stands out as having the most highly educated workforce in the EU as measured by the percentage of over 25’s with a greater than second level education. This is true for both VLWI and non-VLWI groups.

In Ireland, 47 percent of VLWI households are at risk of poverty compared to 6 percent of non-VLWI households. The risk of poverty among VLWI households in Ireland is approximately equal to the EU average. For non-VLWI households the risk of poverty in Ireland is the 5th lowest out of 30 countries (after Denmark, the Netherlands, Czech Republic and Iceland).

There is a large difference between Ireland and the EU average regarding the percentage of VLWI household members categorized as being engaged in domestic and care duties (23 percent in Ireland versus an EU-15 average of 14.5 percent). A sizeable proportion of VLWI household members in Ireland are categorized as disabled / unfit to work (15.5 percent) and students (14.6 percent).

Geuze

Tony EH wrote: »

It's still an extreme minority of people. There's no way around that.

The vast, vast, majority of people do not want to be on the dole, no matter what form it takes. They would much rather be working and getting a more substantial amount of money to live on.

If our rate of VLWI in 2017 (16.2%) was at the EU average, 9.5%, then that would mean 6.7% of people aged 0-59 being in working households, rather than living in VLWI households.

That is over 100,000 people.

I would not call that an extreme minority.


https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:People_living_in_households_with_very_low_work_intensity,_by_country,_2012_and_2017_(%25_of_population_aged_0_to_59).png

Tony EH

Geuze wrote: »

I would not call that an extreme minority.

In the grand scheme of things it is.

Again, the vast majority of people don't want to be out of work and I'd wager, too, that many from those "low work intensity households" don't want to be in that position either.

splinter65

Tony EH wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things it is.

Again, the vast majority of people don't want to be out of work and I'd wager, too, that many from those "low work intensity households" don't want to be in that position either.

It’s not a question of them not wanting to be out of work.
I’m not having a moan here, I’m simply telling you of my 15 years professional experience.
There is now an entire social layer of people, families, households, for whom the entire notion of going to work and even loosening, never mind severing, their total dependence on state aid, is just not something that could ever be considered not even briefly.
The money appears weekly either in the PO or in the bank. It’s as reliable as daybreak.
The child benefit is the first Tuesday of the month, the fuel allowance starts in September, ends in April. Christmas bonus early in December. Regular as clockwork.
If you want to see examples of the reaction when the state tries to force JSA applicants to comply with the conditions “looking for and available for work” you should go to the Benefits forum and read through the Turas Nua thread.
And the people on boards are literate.
You can imagine the response from those with difficulties.

Graces7

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s not a question of them not wanting to be out of work.
I’m not having a moan here, I’m simply telling you of my 15 years professional experience.
There is now an entire social layer of people, families, households, for whom the entire notion of going to work and even loosening, never mind severing, their total dependence on state aid, is just not something that could ever be considered not even briefly.
The money appears weekly either in the PO or in the bank. It’s as reliable as daybreak.
The child benefit is the first Tuesday of the month, the fuel allowance starts in September, ends in April. Christmas bonus early in December. Regular as clockwork.
If you want to see examples of the reaction when the state tries to force JSA applicants to comply with the conditions “looking for and available for work” you should go to the Benefits forum and read through the Turas Nua thread.
And the people on boards are literate.
You can imagine the response from those with difficulties.

October to March..

Wibbs

splinter65 wrote: »

If you want to see examples of the reaction when the state tries to force JSA applicants to comply with the conditions “looking for and available for work” you should go to the Benefits forum and read through the Turas Nua thread.
And the people on boards are literate.

To be fair Seetec are a demonstrably overly expensive, box ticking, abysmally low success rate farce at this stage.

fritzelly

I don't understand how you can be out of work for years and nothing happens
Was made redundant earlier this year, within 2 weeks was put onto a get back to work course, already had a job lined up so feck that
Yet I know of one guy about 30, never worked, doesn't care about penalties but still manages to get the full welfare. Never goes to these courses, wtf is happening
I've lived on welfare for a good few months and it is most certainly a sustainable life style

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Tony EH wrote: »

It's still an extreme minority of people. There's no way around that.

The vast, vast, majority of people do not want to be on the dole, no matter what form it takes. They would much rather be working and getting a more substantial amount of money to live on.

YES. I’m on welfare because I have to be. Firstly, it would be very difficult for my oncologist to agree to me going back to work. Secondly, with a terminal illness, I’d be at the bottom of any potential employer’s list. Quite understandably. I would dearly love to be working again and earning more money. It’s true that I can afford the occasional luxury but only because I mostly have no life due to physical constraints and because I don’t smoke and barely drink. Even doubling the amount I drink would still have me the in ‘barely drinks’ category. I can’t remember the last time I bought new clothing. Oh sorry, a €3 hairband a few weeks ago. Before that, it had probably been two years.

I know I’m sick but I’m just illustrating that living off welfare leaves things tight, especially if you’re not ill and therefore have normal physical stamina and want to get out into the world. I get a medical card and free travel because of my terminal status. Those things are great to have and I’m really grateful. But I’m not rolling around on a bed of money because of them. And remember that most people who are unemployed rather than ill won’t qualify for either of those things. They are means-tested for most people. Sure not even all cancer patients get the medical card, only those of us who receive the “You’re completely fucked” diagnosis.

Yer Da sells Avon

splinter65 wrote: »

If you want to see examples of the reaction when the state tries to force JSA applicants to comply with the conditions “looking for and available for work” you should go to the Benefits forum and read through the Turas Nua thread.
And the people on boards are literate.
You can imagine the response from those with difficulties.

Turas Nua is absolutely not an example of forcing people to comply with JSA conditions. It is nothing more than a very expensive box-ticking exercise. A scam, essentially.

I was referred to them despite already complying with the conditions of receiving a payment. During the couple of months that I was with them (I'm technically still with them over a year later - I still get the odd missed call from them), I had several different advisers (staff turnover is extremely high), none of whom possessed the qualifications to provide anything beyond very basic CV preparation. I literally had to show one of them how to use his own computer one day. I also had to request that he close a tab that had another client's personal details on full display in an open plan office.

I had to reschedule a few appointments with them because they clashed with job interviews (jobs that I had applied for independently of Turas Nua) and as a result, was referred back to the Dept of Social Protection and had my payment suspended. This resulted in a meeting with a social welfare inspector, who - off the record - acknowledged that the whole thing was a great big waste of time and money.

If I'd been prepared to 'play ball' with the useless cunts, I'd probably still be unemployed, over a year later.

Graces7

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

YES. I’m on welfare because I have to be. Firstly, it would be very difficult for my oncologist to agree to me going back to work. Secondly, with a terminal illness, I’d be at the bottom of any potential employer’s list. Quite understandably. I would dearly love to be working again and earning more money. It’s true that I can afford the occasional luxury but only because I mostly have no life due to physical constraints and because I don’t smoke and barely drink. Even doubling the amount I drink would still have me the in ‘barely drinks’ category. I can’t remember the last time I bought new clothing. Oh sorry, a €3 hairband a few weeks ago. Before that, it had probably been two years.

I know I’m sick but I’m just illustrating that living off welfare leaves things tight, especially if you’re not ill and therefore have normal physical stamina and want to get out into the world. I get a medical card and free travel because of my terminal status. Those things are great to have and I’m really grateful. But I’m not rolling around on a bed of money because of them. And remember that most people who are unemployed rather than ill won’t qualify for either of those things. They are means-tested for most people. Sure not even all cancer patients get the medical card, only those of us who receive the “You’re completely . fucked” diagnosis.

agree totally.

I was on incapacity many many years in the UK . I manage and do it well, but there are in effect no extras and in winter I tend to stay abed to keep warm without racking up electricity bills.

You get used to it! Becomes second nature and you stop worrying. All my clothes are charity shop and I shop vis the reduced sections.

Sorry it is like that for thee though; you need your comforts! I. am very old and need so little.

splinter65

Graces7 wrote: »

October to March..

It started in sept this year.

suicide_circus

fritzelly wrote: »

Yet I know of one guy about 30, never worked, doesn't care about penalties but still manages to get the full welfare. Never goes to these courses, wtf is happening
I've lived on welfare for a good few months and it is most certainly a sustainable life style

it's like people who dont pay the pittance the council asks for in rent for social housing resulting in massive arrears...what are they going to do? throw them out on the street only to house them again? similarly, people who refuse to engage in back to work schemes, what are the department going to do? cut them off and let them starve?

Doctor Jimbob

fritzelly wrote: »

I don't understand how you can be out of work for years and nothing happens
Was made redundant earlier this year, within 2 weeks was put onto a get back to work course, already had a job lined up so feck that
Yet I know of one guy about 30, never worked, doesn't care about penalties but still manages to get the full welfare. Never goes to these courses, wtf is happening
I've lived on welfare for a good few months and it is most certainly a sustainable life style

I honestly think they just give up on the long term cases tbh. I was unemployed a couple of years ago, got sent to seetec within a couple of weeks, yet I know people unemployed years who seem to get left alone.

I'm generally pro welfare, but some people definitely get away with taking the piss.

Graces7

splinter65 wrote: »

It started in sept this year.

September 30th. I just checked..