Alberto Salazar banned for 4 years

Ceepo

https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2019/1009/1082202-mageean-hassans-gold-medal-tarnished-by-salazar-link/

"I'm not going to name athletes but our sport does need cleaning up"
This coming from someone on the inside..

IvoryTower

Walshb aside, is there anyone else really doubting how dirty it is at the top? I feel like you're arguing with the last believer.

nannerby

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2019/1009/1082202-mageean-hassans-gold-medal-tarnished-by-salazar-link/

"I'm not going to name athletes but our sport does need cleaning up"
This coming from someone on the inside..

That's about as damning an interview as you will get from an active athlete.

IvoryTower

Incoming

"Shes just bitter"

"What would she know"

"She needs to train harder"

"She should get a proven coach like salazar"

Ceepo

IvoryTower wrote: »

Incoming

"Shes just bitter"

"What would she know"

"She needs to train harder"

"She should get a proven coach like salazar"

You forgot "clean up her diet and maturity"

Ceepo

walshb wrote: »

Muscular is one area. Not the be all and end all

Main criteria back then was the times, that are still not bettered 30 years later, and the lack of actual testing....

Plenty criteria one can use to raise their suspicion...

I think there was more to be suspicious about when there was NO testing, as opposed to today, when there is a heap more testing....And a heap more eyes and ears on your every move...

What about you? Criteria....? What records today are you suspicious of, and why?

But there was actually testing then, it's just that the athletes/doctors were way ahead.
Yes there are people watching everything now, but that doesnt take away from the "omerta" that exists.. similar to cycling the riders know who is hot and still say nothing, As Michael Rasmussen said when he got busted " he wasnt cheating the 2nd or 3rd place guy".. just look at the Salazar debacle and the support coming from Cram, Radcliffe Coe, as well as the nike athletes.
You say you're suspicious of womens 100 to 800, but we know that 2012 15 was one of the dirtiest races of all time ( that we actually know of) this along with the mens 100m. The 100m is very much tarnished still. These are only 2 examples outside of what you said. Theres a lot more. Point being Athletes still has a ped problem, is it as big as before who actually knows.
Of course this doesnt mean everyone is dirty, but people can be forgiven for being sceptical

STB.

Ceepo. Put him on your ignore list. A troll of the most obvious kind.


The type you see having to take unwinnable positions to fit the other side of a debate.


Except this one is not winnable. The vast majority at the top are doping. The sports organisational body is as corrupt as the IOC ever was. Nothing is going to change here until the attitudes and personnel change.



The sport is simply not believable anymore.

walshb

Ceepo wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2019/1009/1082202-mageean-hassans-gold-medal-tarnished-by-salazar-link/

"I'm not going to name athletes but our sport does need cleaning up"
This coming from someone on the inside..

I agree with Ciara. I mean, what has she said here that is so revealing?

The world and her mother knows that Salazar is under suspicion, and it goes without saying that if you associate with him then you too can come under suspicion.

And, why would she be so shocked at 3.52 time? I mean, she was circa 50-60 meters behind Hassan, and she must have known that she herself was running close to her own PB; what time was she expecting from Hassan, a clearly superior athlete?

As for "I'm not going to name athletes." Well, I should think fooking not if you had any ounce of common decency. Unless you have some solid proof, then keep your mouth shut, and accept defeat graciously.

walshb

Ceepo wrote: »

But there was actually testing then, it's just that the athletes/doctors were way ahead.
Yes there are people watching everything now, but that doesnt take away from the "omerta" that exists.. similar to cycling the riders know who is hot and still say nothing, As Michael Rasmussen said when he got busted " he wasnt cheating the 2nd or 3rd place guy".. just look at the Salazar debacle and the support coming from Cram, Radcliffe Coe, as well as the nike athletes.
You say you're suspicious of womens 100 to 800, but we know that 2012 15 was one of the dirtiest races of all time ( that we actually know of) this along with the mens 100m. The 100m is very much tarnished still. These are only 2 examples outside of what you said. Theres a lot more. Point being Athletes still has a ped problem, is it as big as before who actually knows.
Of course this doesnt mean everyone is dirty, but people can be forgiven for being sceptical

The testing in the 1980s was not near close to the level today. Lets' not make out it was in any way comparable.

walshb

IvoryTower wrote: »

Walshb aside, is there anyone else really doubting how dirty it is at the top? I feel like you're arguing with the last believer.

Define how dirty, so?

If people are claiming (without any actual proof) that the vast majority of the elite athletes are cheating, why would me being not ready to simply accept this be so odd?

I rely on statistics and evidence and proof and corroboration, pretty much most of the time.....shoot me..

I'll wait for something a little more solid that "they're all cheats" before joining you and your crew..

Sacksian

I'm happy enough to use my own knowledge of the sport, people's progressions, historical performances, etc, to judge whether a time is credible or not.

Hassan has always been a great athlete, but front-running a 1500m championship record (from 9th at 200m in about 33s, and finishing like a train seemed less credible than Cheruiyot's win (who, again, might well be doping too). It means she can go much faster with a pacer (which Dibaba had).

However, the reason I'm not comfortable with the "they're all doping" argument is that you can't just draw the line at Ciara Mageean or Jenny Simpson or Laura Muir. I actually don't think Hassan's time is beyond the realms of what she might have been capable of but the manner in which it was achieved looks 'off'.

But you still have to explain why Ray Flynn ran 3:49 for the mile in 1982 (only good enough for 3rd behind Steve Scott and John Walker) and, despite advances in performance science in the last forty years, only two people have got close - Mark Carroll (possibly the most talented Irish athlete ever) and Ciarán Ó Lionaird. And you've still got Marcus O'Sullivan, Eamon Coghlan and Frank O'Mara in the top 5.

Is everyone doping except the Irish? And, even if the Irish aren't doping, why can't they get close to the middle-distance times of the 1980s? Were they doping?

Sinbad_NI

I find it interesting that most people's initial position, myself included, is that you always assume your country men or women to be clean by default yet others to be dirty.

Water John

Was going to comment on Hassan earlier. Mageean won a bronze just behind Hassan's silver a few years ago. That says it all, when the improvement is, out of this world.

'a clearer superior athlete' since when?

IvoryTower

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I find it interesting that most people's initial position, myself included, is that you always assume your country men or women to be clean by default yet others to be dirty.

If they started training with someone like salazar i'm sure we'd be suspicious, apart from walshb. Next comes unbelievable improvements, next they're winning stuff they never had a sniff of before. At this stage we have thrown them fully under the bus

All our results are unfortunately very realistic

average_runner

IvoryTower wrote: »

Walshb aside, is there anyone else really doubting how dirty it is at the top? I feel like you're arguing with the last believer.

I am probably at the stage where I think of Athletics like WWE, amazing at what they do but is it real

walshb

IvoryTower wrote: »

If they started training with someone like salazar i'm sure we'd be suspicious, apart from walshb. Next comes unbelievable improvements, next they're winning stuff they never had a sniff of before. At this stage we have thrown them fully under the bus

All our results are unfortunately very realistic

So remove Salazar, and what, Hassan should be at Ciara's level?

What level would you be satisfied with?

Or is Ciara's level also suspicious?

Do folks want ALL athletes to be diving for the line at the same time for the sport to be believable?

average_runner

Hassan times over the last 4 years:

1500m

2019 3:51.95 Khalifa International Stadium, Doha (QAT) 05 OCT 2019 2018 3:57.41 Olympic Stadium, London (GBR) 22 JUL 2018 2017 3:56.14 Blankers-Koen Stadion, Hengelo (NED) 11 JUN 2017 2016 3:57.13 Paris (FRA)

27 AUG 2016

3000m
2019 8:18.49 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 30 JUN 2019 2018 8:27.50 Ostrava (CZE) 08 SEP 2018 2017 8:28.90 Alexander Stadium, Birmingham (GBR) 20 AUG 2017 2014 8:29.38 Boudewijnstadion, Bruxelles (BEL) 05 SEP 2014
1 mile
2019 4:12.33 Stade Louis II, Monaco (MON) 12 JUL 2019 2018 4:14.71 Olympic Stadium, London (GBR) 22 JUL 2018 2016 4:25.50 Rovereto (ITA) 06 SEP 2016

Mile


Performance

Place

Date


2019 Performance4:12.33 PlaceStade Louis II, Monaco (MON) Date12 JUL 2019
2018 Performance4:14.71 PlaceOlympic Stadium, London (GBR) Date22 JUL 2018
2016 Performance4:25.50 PlaceRovereto (ITA) Date06 SEP 2016

Sinbad_NI

Just listening to Ciara Mageean on OTB.
To be fair she speaks very well.

Water John

That sort of drivel hardly warrants a reply WalshB. The athletes generally know, someone who was on a par with them, quite quickly is 50m ahead of them???

Sacksian

Water John wrote: »

Was going to comment on Hassan earlier. Mageean won a bronze just behind Hassan's silver a few years ago. That says it all, when the improvement is, out of this world.

'a clearer superior athlete' since when?

Hassan's pb in 2015 for 1500m was 3:56.05 - Ciara still has to break 4:00. So, she's always been a level above.

The race you refer to was in 2016 (Hassan was already European Champion at 1500m in 2014) was a ridiculous race. They went through 800m in 2:45!!!

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z3tpkWSJNc

Hassan lost out in a sprint and Ciara should probably have got silver!

IvoryTower

walshb wrote: »

So remove Salazar, and what, Hassan should be at Ciara's level?

What level would you be satisfied with?

Or is Ciara's level also suspicious?

Do folks want ALL athletes to be diving for the line at the same time for the sport to be believable?

If Ciara went to train for Salazar and knocked 6 seconds off her pb you bet your bollox I would be suspicious

If someone had a gun to your head and told you to guess whether the winner of each race had cheated, get it wrong and you're dead. My guess is your best bet to survive would be to say they all cheated. Sorry folks, i'm not a believer at all

Sacksian

IvoryTower wrote: »

If Ciara went to train for Salazar and knocked 6 seconds off her pb you bet your bollox I would be suspicious

If someone had a gun to your head and told you to guess whether the winner of each race had cheated, get it wrong and you're dead. My guess is your best bet to survive would be to say they all cheated. Sorry folks, i'm not a believer at all

Very suspicious improvement in your 800 this year, IT!! How many seconds was it?? :pac:

walshb

Water John wrote: »

That sort of drivel hardly warrants a reply WalshB. The athletes generally know, someone who was on a par with them, quite quickly is 50m ahead of them???

Hassan is now on par with Ciara?

Where are you pulling this nonsense from?

Hassan is a career great performer and athlete, and right now in her prime,. She's a 2 minute 800 runner, perfectly suited to running.

There will always be levels in life. Sport is no different.

Ciara has her level, and unfortunately it's not elite. It is world class...

Laura Muir is 3.54/55; is she too a cheat? Who isn't a cheat, and what times is the cut off here from clean to cheat?

IvoryTower

Sacksian wrote: »

Very suspicious improvement in your 800 this year, IT!! How many seconds was it?? :pac:

Man you got to try this new protein shake :pac:

If anyone knows any physios giving the Salazar massage hit me up

chasingpaper

average_runner wrote: »

Hassan times over the last 4 years:

1500m

2019 3:51.95 Khalifa International Stadium, Doha (QAT) 05 OCT 2019 2018 3:57.41 Olympic Stadium, London (GBR) 22 JUL 2018 2017 3:56.14 Blankers-Koen Stadion, Hengelo (NED) 11 JUN 2017 2016 3:57.13 Paris (FRA)

27 AUG 2016

3000m
2019 8:18.49 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 30 JUN 2019 2018 8:27.50 Ostrava (CZE) 08 SEP 2018 2017 8:28.90 Alexander Stadium, Birmingham (GBR) 20 AUG 2017 2014 8:29.38 Boudewijnstadion, Bruxelles (BEL) 05 SEP 2014
1 mile
2019 4:12.33 Stade Louis II, Monaco (MON) 12 JUL 2019 2018 4:14.71 Olympic Stadium, London (GBR) 22 JUL 2018 2016 4:25.50 Rovereto (ITA) 06 SEP 2016

Mile


Performance

Place

Date


2019 Performance4:12.33 PlaceStade Louis II, Monaco (MON) Date12 JUL 2019
2018 Performance4:14.71 PlaceOlympic Stadium, London (GBR) Date22 JUL 2018
2016 Performance4:25.50 PlaceRovereto (ITA) Date06 SEP 2016

I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but cherry picking times is not proof of anything. Progress isn't always linear and there are many factors at play.

For example Ciara goes from 4:07.45 to 4:06.49 from 2011 to 2015 going backwards in years between.
Then she improves 5.03 seconds! Is this a red flag or is it just an average of 1 second improvement over 5 years, but progress wasn't linear.
2016 4:01.46 27 AUG 2016
2015 4:06.49 13 SEP 2015
2014 4:15.35 20 JUL 2014
2012 4:10.74 05 JUL 2012
2011 4:07.45 20 AUG 2011

Hassan is quite similar in this date range below.
2014 was a big PB then consolidated around the 3:56/57 level for a few years before a jump in performance. But 3:56.05 to 3:51.95 took from 2015 to 2019. It is actually a smaller PB improvement than Ciara's. 4.10 over 4 years.

2019 3:51.95 05 OCT 2019
2018 3:57.41 22 JUL 2018
2017 3:56.14 11 JUN 2017
2016 3:57.13 27 AUG 2016
2015 3:56.05 17 JUL 2015
2014 3:57.00 05 JUL 2014

My point is that looking at SB is not really indicative, especially in middle distance where someone's best race/best shape might be when there is a tactical race and they don't show their improvement in times.

Itziger

chasingpaper wrote: »

I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, but cherry picking times is not proof of anything. Progress isn't always linear and there are many factors at play.

For example Ciara goes from 4:07.45 to 4:06.49 from 2011 to 2015 going backwards in years between.
Then she improves 5.03 seconds! Is this a red flag or is it just an average of 1 second improvement over 5 years, but progress wasn't linear.
2016 4:01.46 27 AUG 2016
2015 4:06.49 13 SEP 2015
2014 4:15.35 20 JUL 2014
2012 4:10.74 05 JUL 2012
2011 4:07.45 20 AUG 2011

Hassan is quite similar in this date range below.
2014 was a big PB then consolidated around the 3:56/57 level for a few years before a jump in performance. But 3:56.05 to 3:51.95 took from 2015 to 2019. It is actually a smaller PB improvement than Ciara's. 4.10 over 4 years.

2019 3:51.95 05 OCT 2019
2018 3:57.41 22 JUL 2018
2017 3:56.14 11 JUN 2017
2016 3:57.13 27 AUG 2016
2015 3:56.05 17 JUL 2015
2014 3:57.00 05 JUL 2014

My point is that looking at SB is not really indicative, especially in middle distance where someone's best race/best shape might be when there is a tactical race and they don't show their improvement in times.

Everyone above the age of 5 has heard the saying, "Lies, damned lies and Statistics......." but riddle me this pattern and tell me it's not 'strange'

7,6,7,6,7,1. That is from the Hassan times you yourself posted above (the rest of the figure is 3.5). And you think that's what, normal??? I think Walshie would have trouble with that sequence!!

walshb

Damn right....cherry picking times here and there is not near proof....

If it was, then yes, everyone whoever ran and did very well could be classified a doper...

Hassan was a sub 4 mins runner aged 22 or so; a few seconds under it....It stands to reason that she could easily drop several more seconds with maturity and the same, if not more level of commitment. Middle distance runners usually peak mid to late 20s...

Hassan drooped 5 or so seconds in the space of a calendar year, as did Ciara!

Aged 20-27 Ciara improved by circa 10 seconds; Hassan aged 20-26 by 12 seconds or so....

Shame she chose Salazar. But no way would I hang her for it....

chasingpaper

Itziger wrote: »

Everyone above the age of 5 has heard the saying, "Lies, damned lies and Statistics......." but riddle me this pattern and tell me it's not 'strange'

7,6,7,6,7,1. That is from the Hassan times you yourself posted above (the rest of the figure is 3.5). And you think that's what, normal??? I think Walshie would have trouble with that sequence!!

That is exactly my point! You can look at individual stats (season bests, like the post i replied to) but they mean very little without context.

It doesn't help when people simplify things to try to make a point like 7,6,7,6,1, it is 3:51.95 so essentially 3:52. Her PB improved 4 seconds in 4 years. The years in between she might not have ran a race where time reflected her shape.
Or you could manipulate the data a different way. PB went from 236 seconds to 232 seconds over 4 years or a 1.7% improvement, which looks a bit different to going from 7 to 1!

I am not saying it is normal but there are many reasons it could happen. I am sure Ciara Mageean is clean and she has similar "abnormal" jumps.

Sinbad_NI

You mention context.

Don't forget the context that she's been working with a convicted doping coach while her pb improved substantially.

No smoke without fire.

walshb

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

You mention context.

Don't forget the context that she's been working with a convicted doping coach while her pb improved substantially.

No smoke without fire.

Here's one.....how is Ciara making similar gains without using a doping coach?

Both dropped similar amount of time in different calendar years....circa 5 seconds...