ESB eCars pricing introduction

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't even think AC points should be reserved, I just don't think it will work, what we need are tonnes more AC points and of course DC.

We don't need tonnes more AC points. AC charging (except tethered at home in your own driveway) is a pain in the hole and it would be more expensive to have loads of AC chargers instead of a few DC charge multibay (and if the ESB are listening, that does not mean 2 or 4 but more like 20, and expandable) stations that have a high occupancy

You can't buy petrol by the liter in every shop you go to, do you? And then several times a day poor the petrol into your tank (taking a few minutes)?

You just go to the nearest petrol station when you're empty, and quickly fill up (in about 5-10 minutes). That's what we need to have in a few years time when there are a hundred thousand EVs on the road

unkel

unkel wrote: »

We don't need tonnes more AC points. AC charging (except tethered at home in your own driveway) is a pain in the hole and it would be more expensive to have loads of AC chargers instead of a few DC charge multibay (and if the ESB are listening, that does not mean 2 or 4 but more like 20, and expandable) stations that have a high occupancy

You can't buy petrol by the liter in every shop you go to, do you? And then several times a day poor the petrol into your tank (taking a few minutes)?

You just go to the nearest petrol station when you're empty, and quickly fill up (in about 5-10 minutes). That's what we need to have in a few years time when there are a hundred thousand EVs on the road

We need as many ways to charge as possible, AC , DC , having DC points everywhere is not practical.

There are plenty of situations where AC is perfectly acceptable, having 11 Kw AC is fantastic. Zoe owners with 22 Kw Ac probably laugh their heads off at the rest of us arguing over DC points.

Both AC and DC are needed. The more the merrier.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

having DC points everywhere is not practical.

Why not? We don't need them everywhere, I was thinking of a few hundred 20-50 bay stations nationwide within 5 years (at the moment there are about a thousand petrol stations in Ireland. So we'd probably end up with less EV chargers than we have petrol stations now.

Having AC points everywhere is not practical, it's expensive and imagine the legal problems with people tripping over all those cables being plugged in for hours on end in this country where everybody seems to sue for €50k over a scratch?

this.lad

unkel wrote: »

Why not? We don't need them everywhere, I was thinking of a few hundred 20-50 bay stations nationwide within 5 years (at the moment there are about a thousand petrol stations in Ireland. So we'd probably end up with less EV chargers than we have petrol stations now.

Having AC points everywhere is not practical, it's expensive and imagine the legal problems with people tripping over all those cables being plugged in for hours on end in this country where everybody seems to sue for €50k over a scratch?

Should we not stop looking at electric cars the same way as ICE cars altogether though?

I have to go to Waterford next week for example. Plugging in on AC while I'm at my thing will leave me ready to drive straight home. The alternative is to flute around waiting for a DC charger possibly for quite some time, and wait at least half an hour to charge then.

There needs to be a mix. The more on street there is the less queues at fast chargers I think.

unkel

this.lad wrote: »

I have to go to Waterford next week for example. Plugging in on AC while I'm at my thing will leave me ready to drive straight home. The alternative is to flute around waiting for a DC charger possibly for quite some time, and wait at least half an hour to charge then.

Yes, but that is today (and yesterday). As most cars today are very limited in how they can charge. Most can't even charge at 50kW and almost all fast chargers in Ireland are only 50kW

I'm trying to look at the near future. Where cars and chargers are far quicker. So your half an hour wait (@50kW) then suddenly is only 6 minutes (@250kW)

Tesla already does this today, they have 250kW superchargers chargers and Model 3 can charge at 250kW

this.lad wrote: »

Should we not stop looking at electric cars the same way as ICE cars altogether though?

No! That would be a big mistake. We've honed our filling stations skills for 100 years. We know what works best. It's is not for nothing that the most forward looking charging station companies like Tesla and Fastned, use exactly the petrol station layout for their chargers. Not parking spaces.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

In my opinion reservations make sense for destinations chargers, and communal chargers installed in shared car parks. I don't think it's really intended for rapid chargers.

Pretty sure the stuff in the framework/platform code is not all for FCPs. It may be for SCPs as well order may not be used by eCars at all...

Batesy

Reservations would be a disaster for destination chargers IMO. What’s to stop the same customer reserving the same charger every day for example?

Effectively making it there own private charger.

Black_Knight

Can we just all be clear. Reservations is pure speculation! Ecars hasn't implemented reservations, and has made no indication that they will in the future.

New Map view, notice the "session started" time ?

slave1

I agree with as many chargers as possible including AC, there are many commuters (including myself) that would benefit from a charge whilst street/public car parked all day, this would also take considerable pressure off the DC chargers as any car will get significant charge off a slow charger if charging during the typical working day/night hours

Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

Can we just all be clear. Reservations is pure speculation! Ecars hasn't implemented reservations, and has made no indication that they will in the future.

I think this is pretty clear they intend or at least seriously thinking about implementing reservations.

Notice the length of time some cars are plugged in ? one in the pic below since 6:07 PM yesterday

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

I think this is pretty clear they intend or at least seriously thinking about implementing reservations.

The platform they are using is called Driivz, it's also used by CentricaEVs which is primarily a workplace charging service.

The software platform is the same, so I suspect eCars just didn't bother paying to disable the reservation icon.

https://www.centrica.com/what-we-do/centrica-innovations/electric-vehicle-services/

liamog

liamog wrote: »

The platform they are using is called Driivz, it's also used by CentricaEVs which is primarily a workplace charging service.

The software platform is the same, so I suspect eCars just didn't bother paying to disable the reservation icon.

https://www.centrica.com/what-we-do/centrica-innovations/electric-vehicle-services/

Maybe, who knows ?

September1

I predict that on 18th of November charging for charging will not work well and there will be another delay. I'm usually wrong about predicting future, so nothing to worry about.

ELM327

Probably won't work at all!
I really hope they implement a "free vend" as default.

Mickeroo

Yeah I would not want to be relying on public rapid chargers in the first couple of weeks of this rollout.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Notice the length of time some cars are plugged in ? one in the pic below since 6:07 PM yesterday

That's perfectly allowed. Probably a local resident coming home from work last night, plugging in and having a lie in today. It's a destination charger. That's what it is for.

One of the reasons these AC slow chargers are useless. Or at least useless in public streets.

Fair enough to have a million AC chargers at homes and at work car parks, where they are not in anyone's way

Royale with Cheese

Has anyone else had trouble signing up? My verification email never turned up so my account still isn't activated, if I try and sign up with a different email address it tells me my phone number is in use by another account. I've contacted ESB about it twice so far and no reply.

Does the phone number linked to your account matter? If they don't get back to me I was just gonna sign up using my girlfriend's number.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That's perfectly allowed. Probably a local resident coming home from work last night, plugging in and having a lie in today. It's a destination charger. That's what it is for.

One of the reasons these AC slow chargers are useless. Or at least useless in public streets.

Fair enough to have a million AC chargers at homes and at work car parks, where they are not in anyone's way

No It's not what the AC points are for, it's unavailable for many hours and another driver could be using it that needs it.

Like any charge point, it's intended use is to charge the car and then the driver should move on to make it available for another person, they are not personal charge points.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yes, but that is today (and yesterday). As most cars today are very limited in how they can charge. Most can't even charge at 50kW and almost all fast chargers in Ireland are only 50kW

I'm trying to look at the near future. Where cars and chargers are far quicker. So your half an hour wait (@50kW) then suddenly is only 6 minutes (@250kW)

Tesla already does this today, they have 250kW superchargers chargers and Model 3 can charge at 250kW

It doesnt really. Peak rate is meaningless and the Model 3 battery has to be quite warm to take that peak. In this country's climate with shorter journeys its likely to be well short of that and thats for a premium car not an everymans car!

For the e208's, Corsa's, Leaf's, Ioniq's its going to be <100kW for the next decade until something big happens with battery tech.

DC is to enable long journeys and should focus on that.
AC should be used as much as possible everywhere else.
i.e. Both are required.

Even if your vision of the future came true it would be very bad for the grid as the majority of those who cant home charge would be charging by day with massive spikes for the grid.... really bad idea!

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

That's perfectly allowed. Probably a local resident coming home from work last night, plugging in and having a lie in today. It's a destination charger. That's what it is for.

One of the reasons these AC slow chargers are useless. Or at least useless in public streets.

Fair enough to have a million AC chargers at homes and at work car parks, where they are not in anyone's way

+1
Destination charger, plug in and come back when you are done.
DC charger, come back after 30 minutes/80%/ready to complete your trip. Ideally stay with the car

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Even if your vision of the future came true it would be very bad for the grid as the majority of those who cant home charge would be charging by day with massive spikes for the grid.... really bad idea!

Charging on AC is also much better for the environment, when done at night. I'm not against AC charging, but we need to do it in a way that shows some vision. The idea of having cables everywhere on the public street is horrific. Induction would be far better. There's an interesting pilot going on in Oslo with induction charging for taxi drivers. As they move along the rank, the car finds a new induction charger automatically and starts charging (and automatically billing the owner)

Deleted User wrote: »

No It's not what the AC points are for.

Yes it is. They are destination chargers. They were designed for that. Now if you are not a dick and it is convenient, charging etiquette would mean you go move your car once it is charged. But you don't have to.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Destination charger, plug in and come back when you are done.
DC charger, come back after 30 minutes/80%/ready to complete your trip. Ideally stay with the car

No Unkel thinks AC chargers are for someone to use all day/night when they don't need it, this charger we were talking about has been in use since 6pm yesterday evening and not available for someone else to use. I can get significant charge in just 1 hr at a 22 Kw AC point and a Zoe driver much more.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

No Unkel thinks AC chargers are for someone to use all day/night when they don't need it, this charger we were talking about has been in use since 6pm yesterday evening and not available for someone else to use. I can get significant charge in just 1 hr at a 22 Kw AC point and a Zoe driver much more.

If I plug in to a destination charger at 5-6pm or later, you can assume that I will be there overnight. If I'm at a hotel then I'll move at checkout.


I don't care what charge you could get, I'm there first! That's how destination chargers work! (FYI I would also charge at 11kW on the destination charger, same as you)

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Charging on AC is also much better for the environment, when done at night. I'm not against AC charging, but we need to do it in a way that shows some vision. The idea of having cables everywhere on the public street is horrific. Induction would be far better. There's an interesting pilot going on in Oslo with induction charging for taxi drivers. As they move along the rank, the car finds a new induction charger automatically and starts charging (and automatically billing the owner)


Yes it is. They are destination chargers. They were designed for that. Now if you are not a dick and it is convenient, charging etiquette would mean you go move your car once it is charged. But you don't have to.

Of course you are against AC charging........it's evident from most of your posts.

Who came up with "destination charger" anyway ? you could consider many DC chargers destination chargers here.

It's a charge point for charging cars who need it just like DC and sure enough some cars need to be plugged in for longer than others , however 6pm until 10 am or longer is taking the p1ss , it's someone who does not care whether someone else needs to use it or not.

Staying connected to a charge point for longer than you need to is not the intended function of the chargers, of course, you plug in , go shopping , come back a half hour to 1 hr after the car is charged, ok, fine but 16 hrs later ? no that's taking the absolute P1ss.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

If I plug in to a destination charger at 5-6pm or later, you can assume that I will be there overnight. If I'm at a hotel then I'll move at checkout.


I don't care what charge you could get, I'm there first! That's how destination chargers work! (FYI I would also charge at 11kW on the destination charger, same as you)

You talk about destination charger as if it's something that actually exists, they are charge points, you charge you move.

If you're staying in a hotel don't be lazy , move and park in the hotel car park.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course you are against AC charging........it's evident from most of your posts.

Who came up with "destination charger" anyway ? you could consider many DC chargers destination chargers here.

It's a charge point for charging cars who need it just like DC and sure enough some cars need to be plugged in for longer than others , however 6pm until 10 am or longer is taking the p1ss , it's someone who does not care whether someone else needs to use it or not.

Staying connected to a charge point for longer than you need to is not the intended function of the chargers, of course, you plug in , go shopping , come back a half hour to 1 hr after the car is charged, ok, fine but 16 hrs later ? no that's taking the absolute P1ss.

If I plug in to a destination charger at 6pm my car may not be charged until 1-2am
Should I get up and move it? :rolleyes:

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

If I plug in to a destination charger at 6pm my car may not be charged until 1-2am
Should I get up and move it? :rolleyes:

You will when they apply fees for these too

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

You talk about destination charger as if it's something that actually exists, they are charge points, you charge you move.

If you're staying in a hotel don't be lazy , move and park in the hotel car park.

It's not lazy.
Would you expect someone to fly back to the airport, get 2 trains or a bus return etc to move their car?
At a hotel a few beers in should I move it then?
Leave during a film? Or a work meeting?


Where in Mad Lad's fascist regime is the individual allowed to have a life?

creedp

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Destination charger, plug in and come back when you are done.
DC charger, come back after 30 minutes/80%/ready to complete your trip. Ideally stay with the car

As I have said many times before I've no problem with private companies providing so called 'destination chargers' and setting the rule or no rules for their use, including that you can park you EV here even if you are not charging even if that means my other customers and your fellow EV drivers can fcuk right off, but I disagree that public on street SCP's should be used in that manner. Many of then are clearly marked for 'charging only' which would clearly suggest to me that they are no parking spots for fully charged EVs.

I can't full grasp why anyone would think its OK to hog a charger, even when they are not actually charging, for their own exclusive use when it is a public facility which is freely available to all those requiring EV charging. I would especially find it difficult to understand why EV drivers who clearly understand the importance of being able to access this resource consider it OK to block access to one of the scarcest of resources known to motorists.

Lastly, and yes I'm feeling must calmer now:), where did the term destination charger originate from? Did the Ecars specifically market their SCPs as destination chargers?

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

You will when they apply fees for these too

No I won't.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not lazy.
Would you expect someone to fly back to the airport, get 2 trains or a bus return etc to move their car?
At a hotel a few beers in should I move it then?
Leave during a film? Or a work meeting?


Where in Mad Lad's fascist regime is the individual allowed to have a life?

Lol then they should use the airport chargers, I believe they can be booked, no excuse for it really, there are reasons People can be late back to the car etc but not for 2 weeks holidays lol

Mickeroo

You already get clamped if you're not charging at lots of the Dublin SCPs if facebook is anything to go by.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

You already get clamped if you're not charging at lots of the Dublin SCPs if facebook is anything to go by.

Really ? no one can tell if an i3 is charging or not.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol then they should use the airport chargers, I believe they can be booked, no excuse for it really, there are reasons People can be late back to the car etc but not for 2 weeks holidays lol

For a train then?

Mickeroo wrote: »

You already get clamped if you're not charging at lots of the Dublin SCPs if facebook is anything to go by.

That was for not paying for parking

Deleted User wrote: »

Really ? no one can tell if an i3 is charging or not.

Yes they can. Look at the chargepost. Green/blue light dictates charging or not.
It's the same on Teslas, the only way to check if it's charging is to look at the chargepost.

Mickeroo

Deleted User wrote: »

Really ? no one can tell if an i3 is charging or not.

Can you not see it on the display at the charger itself though?

ELM327 wrote: »

That was for not paying for parking

Ah right, I must be thinking of somewhere overseas then.

KCross

AC charging is wide ranging and different rules will apply across them...

home, work, on-street, car parks, hotels, airports, train stations..... one set of rules wont fit all of those. It will be up to the charge point owner to dictate whats allowed or not, but we need lots more of them, that's for sure.

We have about 1000 of them I think.... is it Netherlands have like 30,000 of them!... tells you how far behind we are!

creedp

creedp wrote: »

As I have said many times before I've no problem with private companies providing so called 'destination chargers' and setting the rule or no rules for their use, including that you can park you EV here even if you are not charging even if that means my other customers and your fellow EV drivers can fcuk right off, but I disagree that public on street SCP's should be used in that manner. Many of then are clearly marked for 'charging only' which would clearly suggest to me that they are no parking spots for fully charged EVs.

I can't full grasp why anyone would think its OK to hog a charger, even when they are not actually charging, for their own exclusive use when it is a public facility which is freely available to all those requiring EV charging. I would especially find it difficult to understand why EV drivers who clearly understand the importance of being able to access this resource consider it OK to block access to one of the scarcest of resources known to motorists.

Lastly, and yes I'm feeling must calmer now:), where did the term destination charger originate from? Did the Ecars specifically market their SCPs as destination chargers?

It's a selfish attitude , a situation where someone has no regard for others, "feck them as long as I'm ok"

Thankfully, I have never obtained this attitude and I should hope I never do.

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

Really ? no one can tell if an i3 is charging or not.

It doesn't matter if the owner hasn't paid for parking! I've come across many, many nice Tesla's, BMW 530es and whatever the hybrid e-class is called recently with parking not paid and every now and again one of these guys is clamped.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

For a train then?

Train stations have their own rules as far as I'm aware.

creedp

creedp wrote: »

It doesn't matter if the owner hasn't paid for parking! I've come across many, many nice Tesla's, BMW 530es and whatever the hybrid e-class is called recently with parking not paid and every now and again one of these guys is clamped.

Ah right so they are clamping not because of charging but because someone hasn't paid their parking.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Train stations have their own rules as far as I'm aware.

There's no rules anywhere that differentiate for train station carpark chargers and other esb chargers.

ELM327

Mickeroo wrote: »

Can you not see it on the display at the charger itself though?



Ah right, I must be thinking of somewhere overseas then.

You can see it on the charger unit, green light vs blue light

slave1

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Has anyone else had trouble signing up? My verification email never turned up so my account still isn't activated, if I try and sign up with a different email address it tells me my phone number is in use by another account. I've contacted ESB about it twice so far and no reply.

Does the phone number linked to your account matter? If they don't get back to me I was just gonna sign up using my girlfriend's number.

+1

McGiver

Both of AC and DC charging is needed. AC are not necessarily destination chargers. It is a destination charger for slow AC charging, but not for 11/22 kW charging cars. Faster AC charging cars are becoming common - that Koreans can't do 11kW doesn't mean no one else can't.

Now Norway, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, Austria all have thousands and thousands of AC chargers but only hundreds of DC.

Norway:
12000 AC
400 DC
AC/DC ratio 30:1

Ireland:
1000 AC
80 DC
Ratio 11:1

Now, eCars plan 50 four slot DC hubs + converting 50 AC to DC in the next few years, that will give us about 350 DC chargers which should be fine, it will likely be complemented by private operators a bit too.

But that will create a gap on the AC side. Not everyone can install charger at home this will need to be sorted. AC chargers are definitely cheaper unlike what has been said - you can can get three phase 11kW pedestal for 2k, but 50 (or 150!) kW DC we're talking 10k at least.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Both of AC and DC charging is needed. AC are not necessarily destination chargers. It is a destination charger for slow AC charging, but not for 11/22 kW charging cars. Faster AC charging cars are becoming common - that Koreans can't do 11kW doesn't mean no one else can't.

Now Norway, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, Austria all have thousands and thousands of AC chargers but only hundreds of DC.

Norway:
12000 AC
400 DC
AC/DC ratio 30:1

Ireland:
1000 AC
80 DC
Ratio 11:1

Now, eCars plan 50 four slot DC hubs + converting 50 AC to DC in the next few years, that will give us about 350 DC chargers which should be fine, it will likely be complemented by private operators a bit too.

But that will create a gap on the AC side. Not everyone can install charger at home this will need to be sorted. AC chargers are definitely cheaper unlike what has been said - you can can get three phase 11kW pedestal for 2k, but 50 (or 150!) kW DC we're talking 10k at least.

11kW is my car's max AC speed, like any other non dual/HP charging Tesla. It's very much a destination charger. 11kW means approx 56 km per hour of charging added in my model S

slave1

McGiver wrote: »

Both of AC and DC charging is needed. AC are not necessarily destination chargers. It is a destination charger for slow AC charging, but not for 11/22 kW charging cars. Faster AC charging cars are becoming common - that Koreans can't do 11kW doesn't mean no one else can't.

Now Norway, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, Austria all have thousands and thousands of AC chargers but only hundreds of DC.

Norway:
12000 AC
400 DC
AC/DC ratio 30:1

Ireland:
1000 AC
80 DC
Ratio 11:1

Now, eCars plan 50 four slot DC hubs + converting 50 AC to DC in the next few years, that will give us about 350 DC chargers which should be fine, it will likely be complemented by private operators a bit too.

But that will create a gap on the AC side. Not everyone can install charger at home this will need to be sorted. AC chargers are definitely cheaper unlike what has been said - you can can get three phase 11kW pedestal for 2k, but 50 (or 150!) kW DC we're talking 10k at least.

I highly doubt Norway has just 400 DC chargers, that seems way too low to me

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

I highly doubt Norway has just 400 DC chargers, that seems way too low to me

+1

Those figures are bogus. Or maybe they mean charging locations. Nebbenes in Norway alone has 44 super chargers plus a number of other DC fast chargers (there are now regularly queues on those other ones)

That supercharger is the sort of setup I'm talking about. 50 stalls, no waiting, and an average driver who can't charge at home or at work charging maybe once or twice a week for say 20 minutes (and make some calls or catch up on some emails or watch netflix or youtube on your cars high quality screen)

Tesla had this vision over a decade ago. And it seems even many EV interested people in this thread right here still don't see it today.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That supercharger is the sort of setup I'm talking about. 50 stalls, no waiting, and an average driver who can't charge at home or at work charging maybe once or twice a week for say 20 minutes (and make some calls or catch up on some emails or watch netflix or youtube on your cars high quality screen)

Tesla had this vision over a decade ago. And it seems even many EV interested people in this thread right here still don't see it today.

I dont think anyone would disagree that we need lots more of the likes of that and yes Tesla had the vision because they had no ICE shackles holding them back.

None of that means that AC isnt hugely important also. We need both to increase in numbers.