ESB eCars pricing introduction

ELM327

Mickeroo wrote: »

I thought someone said earlier that you will be able to keep your current card. Tbh though I'd much rather they just stick a eft on the machines so we can use contactless cards or apple/google pay.

You keep your current card by entering the number when signing up for the app.
Thats what I'll do, PAYG and sign up to use the existing card as RFID
Much better than relying on rural irish 3g signal to use an app

ELM327

Mickeroo wrote: »

Do the charges only apply for the Chademo/CCS connectors or is it for all three connectors?

All 3

ELM327

Lumen wrote: »

FWIW 7l/km is exactly what my Kia Sportage 1.6L diesel does, according to the trip computer. It's mostly used on motorways.

Driven the same way the couple of EVs I've driven (Model S, Kona) have done around 22kWh/100km.

So for me the numbers are:

- EV: 2c/km (on night rate)
- Diesel: 9c/km.

So I broadly agree with your "diesel is four times the price" maths, since I would occasionally need to DC charge, and haven't done any EV testing in proper nasty conditions.

My superb (2.0D DSG) usually hovers betwen 5.8 and 6.5. Don't for the life of me know what it means (metric system is the tool of the devil).
The prius (mk2 1.5) gets just under 50mpg

I don't know any diesel car (that's not brand new that will have additional costs) that gets below 5l/100km

Mike9832

Kramer wrote: »

I think the days of buying an EV, purely for savings, are coming to an end.
ICE Kona (scrappage) - €20k
Electric Kona - €38k

Big proponent of electric but not an evangelist.

It's not easy to make a cheap electric car

60kWh is bare minimum for city to city driving

60kWh pack with all the liquid cooling, packed etc is €10,000 or so

PM 150kW electric motor, inverter, controller, charge ports, all other the bits is the guts of another €10,000

€20,000 right there ( price of a diesel Kona )

I don't see how they can get that all down to €5,000 -7000 any time soon ( price it needs to be to match ICE )

Also alot of rich people in the world

Would I buy electric if fuel cost was no issue, not a chance, all that charging crap when I can just drive

You can get great cars little money too, 8 year old Hondas for €2000 that will run for years, instead of forking out €40,000 for a city to city Leaf

KCross

fricatus wrote: »

Lads, does anyone know if we can still use the RFID card on a PAYG subscription? I would only occasionally use fast chargers on longer trips, mainly charging at home/work, so there’s no sense in spending €5 a month membership fee. At the same time, I would prefer to use a card rather than an app. Will this be an option?

They said your existing card will work you just need to register the card with your account. You cant do it yet though.

Mickeroo wrote: »

I thought someone said earlier that you will be able to keep your current card. Tbh though I'd much rather they just stick a eft on the machines so we can use contactless cards or apple/google pay.

I think that is supported too. Its in their statement.

Kramer wrote: »

I think the days of buying an EV, purely for savings, are coming to an end.
ICE Kona (scrappage) - €20k
Electric Kona - €38k

Big proponent of electric but not an evangelist.

Kona is overpriced, most agree on that.

But you still have Ioniq, Leaf and upcoming ID.3, e208, Corsa etc all around the <€30k mark. We do have to accept that EV's are going to remain more expensive to buy in the long term.

The savings will still be there though and its not as if the difference in price between the 1L petrol and the EV is all lost as soon as you drive out of the showroom... i consider that a strawman argument but its oft made!

unkel

knipex wrote: »

A typical modern petrol does not use 7ltrs per km

Eh no. Not even a tank would use that much. I take it you mean per 100 km? You and Kramer weren't paying a lot of attention in maths in school? You both also seem to struggle with the extremely hard to understand mathematical concept of "average" then?

There are what, about a million petrol cars on the road in Ireland? And they are all of the typical modern variety that uses less than 7l/100km? Or all as good as the hybrids and plug in hybrids that Kramer reckons are representive of the average Irish petrol car on the road today?

daheff

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not enough, but better than nothing.

Ah this is BS. Not everybody can charge at the same rate. So you are penalising people with slower charger (older EVs or phev cars) vs people with newer higher spec cars.

We'll never get mass adoption with that mentality

Lumen

daheff wrote: »

Ah this is BS. Not everybody can charge at the same rate. So you are penalising people with slower charger (older EVs or phev cars) vs people with newer higher spec cars.

We'll never get mass adoption with that mentality

On a practical level, what's to stop you from simply unplugging at 44 minutes and then starting a new charging session?

Also, Norway has mass adoption despite a variety of charging models including a time-based component.

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

Or all as good as the hybrids and plug in hybrids that Kramer reckons are representive of the average Irish petrol car on the road today?

Approx 100,000 new cars sold here per year.
So approx 1 million since 2008 (new tax regime).

I reckon that's a significant proportion of "average" cars on Irish roads.
Doubt many of that million average 11l/100km or 15c/km to fuel .

As said, EVs are great. No need to overegg the pudding is all I'm saying.
Good development finally by Ecars - let's hope we see results with their much lauded upgrade plans now, sometime before Brexit hopefully (that'll give them some years leeway ).

ewj1978

Lumen wrote: »

On a practical level, what's to stop you from simply unplugging at 44 minutes and then starting a new charging session?

Also, Norway has mass adoption despite a variety of charging models including a time-based component.

this, a hundred times this. its fairly simple..

Orebro

daheff wrote: »

Ah this is BS. Not everybody can charge at the same rate. So you are penalising people with slower charger (older EVs or phev cars) vs people with newer higher spec cars.

We'll never get mass adoption with that mentality

PHEVs are going to be like Unicorns on FCPs from the end of Nov, thankfully!

McGiver

ewj1978 wrote:

this, a hundred times this. its fairly simple..

Yes, it's a policy question. Nothing else.
Where there's a will, there's a way.

KCross

daheff wrote: »

Ah this is BS. Not everybody can charge at the same rate. So you are penalising people with slower charger (older EVs or phev cars) vs people with newer higher spec cars.

We'll never get mass adoption with that mentality

An older EV (e.g. Leaf) only spends 30mins on the rapid anyway to get to 80% and its a per kWh charge so you pay for what you get so I dont see the disadvantage to older cars? If it was time based it would disadvantage older cars.

Newer cars will actually have more to complain about as they need longer than the 45mins with their larger batteries.


As for PHEV's.... they shouldnt be on the rapids in the first place, imo, so thats a good thing.

knipex

unkel wrote: »

Eh no. Not even a tank would use that much. I take it you mean per 100 km? You and Kramer weren't paying a lot of attention in maths in school? You both also seem to struggle with the extremely hard to understand mathematical concept of "average" then?

There are what, about a million petrol cars on the road in Ireland? And they are all of the typical modern variety that uses less than 7l/100km? Or all as good as the hybrids and plug in hybrids that Kramer reckons are representive of the average Irish petrol car on the road today?

RIGHT

11 ltrs/km (which is what it would take to get your 15c/km price) is "Average" for petrol car in Ireland

and

7.57 ltrs/ 100Km is "Average" for a diesel car in Ireland

But of course in Ireland the average car is a 3ltr+

Mupchease

Everyone is going to be different.

The car I changed from was a 16 year old petrol car that averaged 12c per km.

My yearly ev driving is averaged at 16.8kWh/100km so it’s working out at 3c per km.
( I don’t have the night rate )

To some the change won’t be as drastic and to others it will be worth it.

unkel

knipex wrote: »

RIGHT

11 ltrs/km (which is what it would take to get your 15c/km price) is "Average" for petrol car in Ireland

and

7.57 ltrs/ 100Km is "Average" for a diesel car in Ireland

Where the average car is a 3ltr+

Fair enough, my rough guide for cents per km was too high for the average car on the road today

My own cars are a bit older and consume a good bit more than average

So say for a typical car bought new in 2019 something like this?

Petrol non hybrid / soft hybrid 10c
Diesel 7c
EV charged at home 1c
EV charged at ESB fast charger 4c

Zenith74

knipex wrote: »

On the EV side.

Taking real world range for a Nissan Leaf Techna from here

110 miles from 40kWh battery or 177km which works out .225kWh per kWh

On the announced pricing that works out as

7.45 c/km for non member
6.52 c/km for a member paying a €5 per month

FWIW I just went out to my Leaf to check. Over the last 10000km I've averaged 16.3kWh/100km doing a mix of city and motorway driving, I'd be very heavy footed. So I'd say this is very much average for a Leaf (notoriously inefficient EV) driver. That works out at 5.2c/km for non-member on ESB eCars.

I'd agree with your petrol/diesel figures.

ELM327

Zenith74 wrote: »

FWIW I just went out to my Leaf to check. Over the last 10000km I've averaged 16.3kWh/100km doing a mix of city and motorway driving, I'd be very heavy footed. So I'd say this is very much average for a Leaf (notoriously inefficient EV) driver. That works out at 5.2c/km for non-member on ESB eCars.

I'd agree with your petrol/diesel figures.

And you would have charged at home for most of it, so it's actually probably closer to 3c

sk8board

its interesting to see the discussion shift wildly this morning to the relative financial benefit of an EV.

on the one hand, you won't be doing much charging at a public charger in the future anyway, as battery range naturally improves, but at current costs, theres no doubt its hard to justify the EV premium of a new car, plus public charger costs, plus a home charger, versus a cheaper diesel variant (Kona etc).
if like me, you spend about €750/year on diesel in a 420d and get 10,000 very happy KM's for the privilege, it would quite literally take me decades to recoup the cost, never mind the cost of my relative time spent at chargers.

There needs to be a bit more stick on the ICE side and a bit more carrot on the EV side - todays news is the opposite. Mass market adoption requires a financial reason to shift, not an environmental/cool tech reason. Mass market buyers can't afford the latter.

Article says 12,000 EV's on the road in Ireland today from a national fleet of 2.4m personal vehicles.

We've reached 0.5% penetration.

drunkmonkey

Newstalk now. It's not really inspiring stuff.

zg3409

sk8board wrote: »

There needs to be a bit more stick on the ICE side and a bit more carrot on the EV side - todays news is the opposite.

I agree the free charging carrot has become a pay to charge stick.

Today's news will free up many fast chargers from locals who have an option of home charging. Those without home charging may move to slow charge points.

After 45 minutes on a charger those who do not need 100% should move on, which is ideal to free up motorway chargers for those who want to go from 20% to 80%. If you are second in queue longest wait now becomes 45 minutes (in theory) and owner will return to the vehicle to prevent overstay fees.

It will make fast chargers much more useable for long distance users, and it will reduce demand on these chargers. It will make better use of existing fast chargers.

The worry I have is the fees will be in before esb have installed any double fast charging pairs, without even planning applications started. It could take months or years before we see more fast chargers from ESB and at many sites like Gorey or Cashel with Ionity it may not make financial sense to double up in the short term. This upgrade could be a 3 or 4 year slow rollout. My main issue before fees and now with fees is blocked, busy and broken fast chargers when heading across the country. The introduction of fees may not help much at existing motorway services.

My recommendation for those thinking of getting an EV is to still never rely on public charging as it is not fit for purpose...yet. I renewed my road tax on my backup ICE. I will review the decision again in August 2020 to see if I still need it. It sits there 6+ days a week.

knipex

unkel wrote: »

Fair enough, my rough guide for cents per km was too high for the average car on the road today

My own cars are a bit older and consume a good bit more than average

So say for a typical car bought new in 2019 something like this?

Petrol non hybrid / soft hybrid 10c
Diesel 7c
EV charged at home 1c
EV charged at ESB fast charger 4c

Go back and look at the sourced I gave for real world mileage.

All 5 ish year old cars..

Your figures for EV costs don't add up either. Sources and math in my original post.



I have said this before. EV is a serious transport option and deserves serious discussion. This isn't a discussion forum any more its a propaganda forum for a cult.


I'm done..

Lumen

knipex wrote: »

This isn't a discussion forum any more its a propaganda forum for a cult.

Black_Knight

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Newstalk now. It's not really inspiring stuff.

Any summary?

creedp

KCross wrote: »

An older EV (e.g. Leaf) only spends 30mins on the rapid anyway to get to 80% and its a per kWh charge so you pay for what you get so I dont see the disadvantage to older cars? If it was time based it would disadvantage older cars.

Newer cars will actually have more to complain about as they need longer than the 45mins with their larger batteries.


As for PHEV's.... they shouldnt be on the rapids in the first place, imo, so thats a good thing.

In my opinion overall range is the main issue. So if older and newer cars charged at the same speed they will both add the same range for the same charging time. On the other hand an an older leaf like an L30 80% will only have approx 130km range at 80% while a newer kona would have over 200km. So there's no doubt an over stay charge will impact more on older cars.

For me with an L30 it spells the end of using it for journey requiring multiple fast charges. Not worth the hassle. I'll be completing all such journeys in my diesel in future and arriving at my destination a lot earlier and in a relaxed frame of mind. Thanks ecars for doing me a favour.

drunkmonkey

Black_Knight wrote: »

Any summary?

It was all pretty negative except for the girl who doesn't drive anywhere she couldn't walk to, an EV suits her.
Ciara's take away was it's twenty euro for 100km depending on what EV you have and all the crap that goes along with having an EV. I doubt she'll have one anytime soon, happy with her 1.3TDI.

Black_Knight

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It was all pretty negative except for the girl who doesn't drive anywhere she couldn't walk to, an EV suits her.
Ciara's take away was it's twenty euro for 100km depending on what EV you have and all the crap that goes along with having an EV. I doubt she'll have one anytime soon, happy with her 1.3TDI.

EV hate is so in right now.

Luckily for those with a brain who can do maths, they're a pretty sound option.

galwaytt

knipex wrote: »

I have said this before. EV is a serious transport option and deserves serious discussion. This isn't a discussion forum any more its a propaganda forum for a cult.


I'm done..

I agree EV is worthy of serious discussion, and I can see benefits, esp with the bonkers traffic we have now.

And I don't have one. Nor is one likely in the medium term. I quite like my ICE, and my annual mileage is tiny.

It's just down the money.

Calahonda52

zg3409 wrote: »

..
My recommendation for those thinking of getting an EV is to still never rely on public charging as it is not fit for purpose...yet. I renewed my road tax on my backup ICE. I will review the decision again in August 2020 to see if I still need it. It sits there 6+ days a week.

And mine also:
The other PITA, at least with my leaf is I can't put a hitch on it for carrying elec bikes, so I need the backup ICE, locked and loaded in the drive!

Larbre34

A wan on Ciara Kelly wanted the introduction of on-street charging costs deferred 10 or 15 years until adoption is embedded, thats just naivety in my opinion.

Nobody subsidises me for boiling the kettle, for the gas I burn in my well maintained boiler or the diesel I put in my car, why should other ESB consumers subsidise fuelling of other people's private transport.

Even paying the economic cost of the energy, EVs make full sense for many people and for many other people they don't yet, but there should be no artificial propping up of the market by cross-subsidy, you pay for what you consume or you decide to change to another better solution for you, end of.

DrPhilG

zg3409 wrote: »

The worry I have is the fees will be in before esb have installed any double fast charging pairs, without even planning applications started

*ahem





New services on the M9.

Zenith74

Larbre34 wrote: »

Nobody subsidises me for boiling the kettle, for the gas I burn in my well maintained boiler or the diesel I put in my car, why should other ESB consumers subsidise fuelling of other people's private transport

That's not quite true now, the true costs of burning fossil fuels are only starting to emerge in recent years and these costs are essentially paid for by the state - aka subsidised. 1500-2000 pre-mature deaths in Ireland directly caused by air pollution, imagine the load and cost that puts on the healthcare system. Then think of all the millions/billions that are now being pumped into researching and implementing renewable systems trying to replace the damage done by burning fossil fuels. The subsidy is there, you just don't see it reflected in the public accounts.

Mickeroo

DrPhilG wrote: »

*ahem

Where's that?

Zenith74

DrPhilG wrote: »

*ahem

Cool, where's this? Those look like the existing 50kW chargers, or are they faster?

Larbre34

Zenith74 wrote: »

That's not quite true now, the true costs of burning fossil fuels are only starting to emerge in recent years and these costs are essentially paid for by the state - aka subsidised. 1500-2000 pre-mature deaths in Ireland directly caused by air pollution, imagine the load and cost that puts on the healthcare system. Then think of all the millions/billions that are now being pumped into researching and implementing renewable systems trying to replace the damage done by burning fossil fuels. The subsidy is there, you just don't see it reflected in the public accounts.

Thats a subsidy spread across all mains customers. Subsidising private EVs is not justifiable.

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

All 3

Got a link? Pretty sure I read that it only applies to 50kw fast chargers.

Now technically the fast AC side of a triple head is "part of" a 50kw rapid.

But it is also technically only a 43kw charger.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

*ahem


New services on the M9.

Looks like the paper tagged to the pole says they will be live on Friday... is that this Friday or a sign thats sitting there for a few weeks already?!

DrPhilG

daheff wrote: »

Ah this is BS. Not everybody can charge at the same rate. So you are penalising people with slower charger (older EVs or phev cars) vs people with newer higher spec cars.

We'll never get mass adoption with that mentality

I totally understand, I had a 24kwh Leaf for 3+ years and relied heavily on public charging.

But at the end of the day we can't keep everyone back because of the slower cars. Why should others have to wait over an hour to charge, just because your car is slow?

That's like restricting the national speed limit to 30km because some folk still have a horse and cart.

Its tough, but there has to be a reasonable time set for what it fair for others to wait and I think 45 minutes fits the bill. I very rarely stayed longer than that when I had the 24kwh and if I did its because I couldn't rely on the next charger on my route being available.

KCross

Zenith74 wrote: »

Cool, where's this? Those look like the existing 50kW chargers, or are they faster?

eCars seem to call <50kW chargers "Fast Charge points" and anything above that they call "High Power chargers" and "ultra high power" and these have "Fast charge point" written on them so I'd guess they are 50kW max.

Interesting that they are still triple heads. I thought they might have abandoned AC43 for any new chargers. CHAdeMO is going to be fully supported for a while yet if they are still supporting AC43.

liamog

Given the amount of damage that appears to be happening on FastAC connectors I'm surprised they didn't spec them with a 22kW socket instead.

innrain

DrPhilG wrote: »

Got a link? Pretty sure I read that it only applies to 50kw fast chargers.

Now technically the fast AC side of a triple head is "part of" a 50kw rapid.

But it is also technically only a 43kw charger.

In the email ESB sent to ecars customers it says

"Pricing will be introduced first for existing fast (43 - 50kW) chargers in Ireland from 18th November followed by the introduction of pricing for high power chargers (150kW) once the first ones are installed."

43 seems to be included.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

I think the days of buying an EV, purely for savings, are coming to an end.
ICE Kona (scrappage) - €20k
Electric Kona - €38k

It is said before, the difference buys a lot of deisel, it would buy me 8 years worth, and that without including the cost for electricity for the battery. Probably be 20 years before the actual savings were kicked in.

KCross

Its also good they put the swings next to them. Something for EV drivers to do while waiting!

And good to see clearly marked bays and signs. They've even made them extra wide. Slow steps in the right direction!

Zenith74

Larbre34 wrote: »

Thats a subsidy spread across all mains customers. Subsidising private EVs is not justifiable.

I disagree. EVs are at a disadvantage because a diesel/petrol car can cause pollution and not pay the price, so a subsidy levels the playing field. Note that the EV subsidies are available to all who choose to use an EV, in the same way that the ICE pollution subsidy is available to those who choose to use an ICE.

rolion

Orebro wrote: »

PHEVs are going to be like Unicorns on FCPs from the end of Nov, thankfully!

KCross wrote: »

An older EV (e.g. Leaf) only spends 30mins on the rapid anyway to get to 80% and its a per kWh charge so you pay for what you get so I dont see the disadvantage to older cars? If it was time based it would disadvantage older cars.

Newer cars will actually have more to complain about as they need longer than the 45mins with their larger batteries.


As for PHEV's.... they shouldnt be on the rapids in the first place, imo, so thats a good thing.

Arrogant attitude...

An Outlander can charge on FCP at 22Kw.
A battery of 10Kwh capacity will be full in 30 minutes,well below the 45 minutes "limit".
After charged, PHEV will drive 40km on clean non poluted engine in busy city traffic.

What's your issue here !??

JPA

DrPhilG wrote: »

*ahem

[/IMG]

New services on the M9.

Where on the M9 is this?

ELM327

rolion wrote: »

Arrogant attitude...

An Outlander can charge on FCP at 22Kw.
A battery of 10Kwh capacity will be full in 30 minutes,well below the 45 minutes "limit".
After charged, PHEV will drive 40km on clean non poluted engine in busy city traffic.

What's your issue here !??

Issues are with phevs using the AC at 3 or 7 kW.
Not the outlander which DC charges at 17kW

ELM327

JPA wrote: »

Where on the M9 is this?

Kilcullen
It's not on Zap Map yet though

innrain

It is on plugshare
https://www.plugshare.com/location/208448

unkel

knipex wrote: »

Go back and look at the sourced I gave for real world mileage.

All 5 ish year old cars..

Man, I was only trying to give a rough costs per km, because somebody asked for it. What is your problem here? Ok we can argue about the values I came up with. I gave a new set of values, based on newer more frugal cars. You not happy with those either?

knipex wrote: »

Your figures for EV costs don't add up either. Sources and math in my original post.

I'll go by my own EV, a family size car driven hard. 5 people in my family. I have the car just over 2.5 years and just under 40k km

Over that period I have averaged about 13kWh/100km. At the moment I pay about 8c/kWh. That used to be less. And of course I have had plenty of free charging. But completely disregarding any free charging and any cheaper rates in the past, at present I pay for 100km, 13kWh * 8c = €1.04

So pretty much bang on 1c/kWh