ESB eCars pricing introduction

drunkmonkey

Zenith74 wrote: »

I disagree. EVs are at a disadvantage because a diesel/petrol car can cause pollution and not pay the price, so a subsidy levels the playing field. Note that the EV subsidies are available to all who choose to use an EV, in the same way that the ICE pollution subsidy is available to those who choose to use an ICE.

Ah now come on if you look to cradle to the grave costs in money and to the environment an EV doesn't hold much advantage over a new ICE car.
Granted it's got somewhat lower running costs on day to day driving but those are being phased out. If there's subsidies for new EV's there should be some for new Mercedes diesels.

unkel

In fairness Kilcullen is probably the most needed location for fast chargers. Well done to the ESB. Only two of them and they are more 2009 than 2019 with only 50kW, but it's a start.

Mike9832

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is said before, the difference buys a lot of deisel, it would buy me 8 years worth, and that without including the cost for electricity for the battery. Probably be 20 years before the actual savings were kicked in.

Thats after €10,000 subsidy and vrt rebate

Kona should be €48,000

How in the hell are they gonna produce that €48,000 car for €20,000 to reach parity in the years to come?

Its impossible

Cars as we know them are going to get expensive, very expensive and they'll be much inferior like for like

In years to come without grants/subsidies

People used to driving cross country can either buy a €50,000 BMW than can do 500km

Or buy something for €25,000 that can do 200km and stop every 2 hours for 30mins paying 33c a kWh for the pleasure

All for the climate

liamog

rolion wrote: »

Arrogant attitude...

An Outlander can charge on FCP at 22Kw.
A battery of 10Kwh capacity will be full in 30 minutes,well below the 45 minutes "limit".
After charged, PHEV will drive 40km on clean non poluted engine in busy city traffic.

What's your issue here !??

Honest question, would you really use a public rapid at a cost of €3.50 for 40km plus 30mins of your time?

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Thats after €10,000 subsidy and vrt rebate

Kona should be €48,000

How in the hell are they gonna produce that €48,000 car for €20,000 to reach parity in the years to come?

Its impossible

Cars as we know them are going to get expensive, very expensive and they'll be much inferior like for like

In years to come without grants/subsidies

People used to driving cross country can either buy a €50,000 BMW than can do 500km

Or buy something for €25,000 that can do 200km and stop every 2 hours for 30mins paying 33c a kWh for the pleasure

All for the climate

Or a Tesla.

rolion

liamog wrote: »

Honest question, would you really use a public rapid at a cost of €3.50 for 40km plus 30mins of your time?

Short answer,yes,if i had the opportunity to use it,between jobs or meetings.
I'm home now, having an hour lunch and coffee (free of delli's rip off charge) and i plugged in the charging cable.


It costs me €10,50 per 100Km on petrol engine.
Thats €1,50 each 10Km on ice.
Costs me €1.00 for 40Km on PureEV mode.

Pure EV mode,no noise,no noxes.
Be good.

kennethsmyth

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ah now come on if you look to cradle to the grave costs in money and to the environment an EV doesn't hold much advantage over a new ICE car.
Granted it's got somewhat lower running costs on day to day driving but those are being phased out. If there's subsidies for new EV's there should be some for new Mercedes diesels.

You realise when those batteries in the car are no longer viable for it there are many ways in which it can continue on in life.

1. Battery refurbished and car continues on.
2. Battery refurbished and used in home pv/power.
3. Sections of usable battery used elsewhere and remainder recycled.

From above the car will probably be falling apart before its use is no longer viable for someone (a car with only a 50km range is still very usable to someone as a local car).

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

Or a Tesla.

True

innrain

rolion wrote: »

Short answer,yes,if i had the opportunity to use it,between jobs or meetings.
I'm home now, having an hour lunch and coffee (free of delli's rip off charge) and i plugged in the charging cable.


It costs me €10,50 per 100Km on petrol engine.
Thats €1,50 each 10Km on ice.
Costs me €1.00 for 40Km on PureEV mode.

Pure EV mode,no noise,no noxes.
Be good.

Yes but a BMW plugged in for 3 hours drawing 3 kW at FCP Templeville (which has load balancing limiting the DC at 24 kW) will be gone.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Man, I was only trying to give a rough costs per km, because somebody asked for it. What is your problem here? Ok we can argue about the values I came up with. I gave a new set of values, based on newer more frugal cars. You not happy with those either?



I'll go by my own EV, a family size car driven hard. 5 people in my family. I have the car just over 2.5 years and just under 40k km

Over that period I have averaged about 13kWh/100km. At the moment I pay about 8c/kWh. That used to be less. And of course I have had plenty of free charging. But completely disregarding any free charging and any cheaper rates in the past, at present I pay for 100km, 13kWh * 8c = €1.04

So pretty much bang on 1c/kWh

Driven hard at 13kWh/100km

Come on lol 😂

Driven hard your car do over 200km?

Better than the bloody wlpt range

Most small cars are doing 20kWh/100km on the motorway

Thats €6.60 for 100km

Big cars like Audi É tron etc are doing 30kWh +

Thats €9.90 for 100km

The 3l 300bhp diesel Audi Q7 will match that €9.90 for 100km easy and no need stop and charge every 2 hours

Thats not an improvement

liamog

rolion wrote: »

Short answer,yes,if i had the opportunity to use it,between jobs or meetings.
I'm home now, having an hour lunch and coffee (free of delli's rip off charge) and i plugged in the charging cable.


It costs me €10,50 per 100Km on petrol engine.
Thats €1,50 each 10Km on ice.
Costs me €1.00 for 40Km on PureEV mode.

Pure EV mode,no noise,no noxes.
Be good.

If your saying it costs €10.50/100km in petrol, then 40km will cost you €4.20, the new fast charger pricing will cost you around €3.50 to gain the same range.

You would willingly tie up the rapid charger to save 70c?
Would you be offended if I turned up in my Ioniq and gave you €1 to go away and buy some petrol. That's almost a 50% increase in your personal savings.

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Driven hard at 13kWh/100km

Come on lol ��

Driven hard your car do over 200km?

Better than the bloody wlpt range

Most small cars are doing 20kWh/100km on the motorway

Thats €6.60 for 100km

Big cars like Audi É tron etc are doing 30kWh +

Thats €9.90 for 100km

The 3l 300bhp diesel Audi Q7 will match that €9.90 for 100km easy and no need stop and charge every 2 hours

Thats not an improvement

Unkel must have a different Ioniq to mine or something because driven hard for me would always see 16+. I got it into the 20's a couple of times at 130 on the motorway on a cold day with no preheating.


Sub 14 kWh/100km was always "good" for me, sub 12 was great and sub 10 impossible. Not possible to get below 14 without trying.


Your point about the diesel Q7 is not entirely accurate though as the etron's first 300-350km is at 8c/kWh not 33c

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

If your saying it costs €10.50/100km in petrol, then 40km will cost you €4.20, the new fast charger pricing will cost you around €3.50 to gain the same range.

You would willingly tie up the rapid charger to save 70c?
Would you be offended if I turned up in my Ioniq and gave you €1 to go away and buy some petrol. That's almost a 50% increase in your personal savings.

+1
Some people are silly when it comes to money and time management
Same as 100 percenters because "it's free". They don't realise they are sitting there for 1 hour to save a euro, which they probably spent on coffee anyway :D

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

Your point about the diesel Q7 is not entirely accurate though as the etron's first 300-350km is at 8c/kWh not 33c

Right, the flipside of the argument is: EVs are much cheaper to fuel when charged overnight at home (i.e. most of the time) and no more expensive when fast charged.

Obviously if you're regularly doing >300km/day then an e-tron is a terrible choice for the sheer hassle of planning the charging stops (until the network improves).

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

In fairness Kilcullen is probably the most needed location for fast chargers. Well done to the ESB. Only two of them and they are more 2009 than 2019 with only 50kW, but it's a start.

Two is better than one, but 50kW is pretty old hat at this stage.

ELM327

Lumen wrote: »

Right, the flipside of the argument is: EVs are much cheaper to fuel when charged overnight at home (i.e. most of the time) and no more expensive when fast charged.

Obviously if you're regularly doing >300km/day then an e-tron is a terrible choice for the sheer hassle of planning the charging stops (until the network improves).

Exactly
Or just use Ionity and Easygo .


600km in a day in Etron with 1 Ionity charge for 8€

drunkmonkey

Lumen wrote: »

Right, the flipside of the argument is: EVs are much cheaper to fuel when charged overnight at home (i.e. most of the time) and no more expensive when fast charged.

That's not really a flip side as you have to charge all night if you need to go somewhere your kinda goosed especially if you hobbled home on a low battery.

Mike9832

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's not really a flip side as you have to charge all night if you need to go somewhere your kinda goosed especially if you hobbled home on a low battery.

It's a bloody huge battery too

90kWh+ gonna take time to charge at home

KCross

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Newstalk now. It's not really inspiring stuff.

Black_Knight wrote: »

Any summary?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It was all pretty negative ...

The point made about paying through your home bill was given as one of the reasons why he went back to diesel... that doesnt make any sense. Who cares whether its through your home bill or a PAYG swipe card. Yea, eCars moved the goalposts in that regard from their initial marketing many years ago but its largely irrelevant as it still needs to be paid for so I didnt really get his negativity around that.

PAYG via contactless is perfectly fine and as long as there are competing networks with eCars, Ionity, easyGo etc there shouldnt be a problem.

The negativity was, I believe, from a forum poster who got stung on PCP on his Leaf and was vocal enough about that on here so I wonder is there more to it really.

ELM327

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's not really a flip side as you have to charge all night if you need to go somewhere your kinda goosed especially if you hobbled home on a low battery.

All night when you are asleep and the car is sitting in the drive?

Jeez what a problem :pac:


7kW * 9 hours gives 63kWh over night rate. Let's say 60kWh accounting for losses.


In an etron you have ~85 kWh available, meaning if you arrived home at 10% and added 60kWh you would have 68 kWh or 80% charge.

Mike9832 wrote: »

It's a bloody huge battery too

90kWh+ gonna take time to charge at home

7kW will add ~60kWh as above in night rate. Assuming you don't run to absolute 0 you will get a good charge overnight, and fill it if you plug in when you get home.

rolion

liamog wrote: »

If your saying it costs €10.50/100km in petrol, then 40km will cost you €4.20, the new fast charger pricing will cost you around €3.50 to gain the same range.

You would willingly tie up the rapid charger to save 70c?
Would you be offended if I turned up in my Ioniq and gave you €1 to go away and buy some petrol. That's almost a 50% increase in your personal savings.

If you think you can offend me with 70 cents, you may need to up your fcuking tasteless jealous phev game !

IF we ever have to meet around a charger ,I will take a fiver from my savings and pay you a pint while i show you my dark side and prove that money does not change my personal savings.
All my solar PVs, solar tubes, two electrical vehicles and a pure ECO friendly lifestyle will not make for your time and effort and, hardly you will understand my rationale.

Stay away from Outlanders plugged in to public chargers...
Be good and let's get back on topic,please.

Orebro

So glad I never bought an Outlander (almost did once). Seems to turn their owners into irrational angry people.

(Newsflash: nobody is jealous of your Outlander).

drunkmonkey

ELM327 wrote: »

All night when you are asleep and the car is sitting in the drive?

Jeez what a problem :pac:

I mean if there's an emergency, someone needs to go to hospital, an alarm goes off which happens me regularly enough to make it a thing I've to be conscious of.
It's not a biggie herself has a diesel I could borrow but I'd rather give chase in my own if I need to.

I've a deposit on an ID3, my mates close to getting delivery of his model 3 so can't wait to check it out. The new Audi S diesels have caught my attention though. S4 diesel Avant could be a contender yet.

Calahonda52

KCross wrote: »

The point made about paying through your home bill was given as one of the reasons why he went back to diesel... that doesnt make any sense. Who cares whether its through your home bill or a PAYG swipe card. Yea, eCars moved the goalposts in that regard from their initial marketing many years ago but its largely irrelevant as it still needs to be paid for so I didnt really get his negativity around that.

PAYG via contactless is perfectly fine and as long as there are competing networks with eCars, Ionity, easyGo etc there shouldnt be a problem.

The negativity was, I believe, from a forum poster who got stung on PCP on his Leaf and was vocal enough about that on here so I wonder is there more to it really.

KC,
When did positivity ever make good headlines when talking about EVs

It's all negative which never got anyone anywhere.
I wonder do they have battery anxiety on their other battery operated toys: phones/bluetooth speakers, golf carts and most especially the bedroom toys.
Now there is a story to buzz about

sk8board

I wouldn’t say what’s going on here is “EV hate” as some have called it above, not from me certainly, but the simple reality is that my 10,000kms cost me about €750 annually and today the financial incentive to move to EV (which was already tenuous), completely disappeared.

environment reasons for moving to an EV, anyone?

For mass market adoption, there needs to be a financial reason to move. Today’s news moves that point further away.

With EVs only accounting for 0.5% of the national fleet, I think it’s safe to say we are firmly still in expensive early-adopter stage.

liamog

rolion wrote: »

If you think you can offend me with 70 cents, you may need to up your fcuking tasteless jealous phev game !

IF we ever have to meet around a charger ,I will take a fiver from my savings and pay you a pint while i show you my dark side and prove that money does not change my personal savings.
All my solar PVs, solar tubes, two electrical vehicles and a pure ECO friendly lifestyle will not make for your time and effort and, hardly you will understand my rationale.

Stay away from Outlanders plugged in to public chargers...
Be good and let's get back on topic,please.

I do hope most other PHEV drivers are able to calculate their relative cost savings when charging at a public rapid chargers and make a more considerate decision. Preferably without threats to introduce their dark side simply for being spoken to.

The same applies to EV drivers too, the only difference being for an EV driver, the calculus is what's the minimum energy I need to complete my journey and/or get to a cheaper charger (i.e. home).

Right now when I charge at a rapid on the way home, I'll generally keep going to 94% as it only takes 34 mins from 10% in an Ioniq. I'll do that even when I've only need an extra 25%. When I'm in the UK with pay chargers, I do the opposite, I take what I need (with a 10% buffer) and then take off.

I suspect by the end of next year, that's what most people here will be doing too.

Black_Knight

rolion wrote: »

If you think you can offend me with 70 cents, you may need to up your fcuking tasteless jealous phev game !

IF we ever have to meet around a charger ,I will take a fiver from my savings and pay you a pint while i show you my dark side and prove that money does not change my personal savings.

Well you did drive home to save a few quid on a deli sandwich, so money/savings/value seems to be some motivator to you.

IMO, if phevs want to charge on fast chargers, go for it, it's their choice, and ESB facilitated this by ignoring "fees based on time".
Being inconsiderate to others isn't limited to phevs, plenty of BEV drivers fill to their max when they don't need to, with queues behind them.

That all said, you seem to have some gripe with BEVs, PHEVs and charging, and it comes across like you're looking for a confrontation.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

I

Right now when I charge at a rapid on the way home, I'll generally keep going to 94% as it only takes 34 mins from 10% in an Ioniq. I'll do that even when I've only need an extra 25%. When I'm in the UK with pay chargers, I do the opposite, I take what I need (with a 10% buffer) and then take off.

I suspect by the end of next year, that's what most people here will be doing too.

Pretty much my setup to. So long as I'm not holding up anyone.

Fees will change that. Thankfully!

rolion

@liam

We got on the wrong end of the charging cable...i amy have to apology
I do understand your frustration but please do not point to PHEV owners like a targeted effort ...
I share the same when i see the abuse and i was one "praying" for the charging to be implemented.

We drive a Leaf and an Outlander.Happy with both of them,daily journey around 40ish for each vehicle.
Never left cars plugged on Fast charge and returned hours.Always left if another drivers asked and i was near 80%.
If any owners or users here on boards can post a photo of my cars abusing the charging stations,i am willing to promise in not using the network for a year.

Be good.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Pretty much my setup to. So long as I'm not holding up anyone.

Fees will change that. Thankfully!

Same here, if I only need a bit of charge I'll knock it off at 80% when somebody pulls in behind.

I'm really glad they avoided a session fee.
On the UK chargers which are cheaper per kWh but with a session fee, I've always charged all the way. It's the principle of the thing!

Black_Knight

sk8board wrote: »

I wouldn’t say what’s going on here is “EV hate” as some have called it above, not from me certainly, but the simple reality is that my 10,000kms cost me about €750 annually and today the financial incentive to move to EV (which was already tenuous), completely disappeared.

Why does everyone forget that charging at home is almost free (by comparison)!?

I had a similar setup to you. Did 10k km last year in my diesel. Cost me €890 for the year. Moved to electric and charging at home for those 10k km will cost me about €112 + a few times when I need to use public chargers. So I'm doing ~€750 a year on fuel alone. Tax and services are cheaper too, and tolls if I used them.

Black_Knight

rolion wrote: »

.Always left if another drivers asked and i was near 80%.
.

Just don't offer ya a euro to buy petrol instead

<I mean this in jest>

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Unkel must have a different Ioniq to mine or something because driven hard for me would always see 16+. I got it into the 20's a couple of times at 130 on the motorway

Not a different Ioniq, a different driving pattern. You drove yours daily at motorway speeds (130km/h) - where an EV suffers badly. I rarely do. A lot of my driving is outside of peak traffic at lower speeds. A lot of it on 80km/h roads, where an EV excels.

FutureTeashock

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

kanuseeme

For me, it will cost me about 2 euro to charge to 80 % and with that I will save about 3.50,

So for me to move 1 euro will not cut it, I will need 4, I prefer notes, but no change given sorry.

I have modified my outlander already.

unkel

kennethsmyth wrote: »

2. Battery refurbished and used in home pv/power.
3. Sections of usable battery used elsewhere

Very much so. Whenever a battery module from an EV comes up for sale on eBay, the vultures are at the ready to pick these up, at ridiculously inflated prices. A 24kWh early Leaf pack (with probably no more than 13-14kWh available) and the seller is looking for GBP3,200 for just the battery :eek:

FutureTeashock

Get everyone on the EV hook by abolishing petrol and diesel, then ratchet up the cost of charging the horrible yokes. So blatant.

drunkmonkey

unkel wrote: »

Very much so. Whenever a battery module from an EV comes up for sale on eBay, the vultures are at the ready to pick these up, at ridiculously inflated prices. A 24kWh early Leaf pack (with probably no more than 13-14kWh available) and the seller is looking for GBP3,200 for just the battery :eek:

Why are they so expensive when there of little use....bus is coming along very slowly thought they'd have dropped by now, I'm guessing i'd need 50kw at least which is the guts of 15k for a used battery.

KCross

sk8board wrote: »

I wouldn’t say what’s going on here is “EV hate” as some have called it above, not from me certainly, but the simple reality is that my 10,000kms cost me about €750 annually and today the financial incentive to move to EV (which was already tenuous), completely disappeared.

You've misunderstood the whole thing I think.
This only affects those reliant on public chargers. Anyone with home charging is largely unaffected by this.

Case in point, your €750 cost me €130!

sk8board wrote: »

For mass market adoption, there needs to be a financial reason to move. Today’s news moves that point further away.

Not really. The incentives are still there, particularly secondhand.

However, there is still lack of choice and they are overpriced when new. Like all products we need more competition before that will be solved.

And we need more chargers installed as the network is still crap regardless of whether its free or not.

unkel

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why are they so expensive when there of little use..

Little use, you must be joking! Hundreds of thousands of people worldwide are converting classic cars to EV, building powerwalls for their homes, build batteries for their campervans, convert bikes and motorbikes to electric, build off grid renewable systems for their home or holiday home, etc. Collect 18650 cells from dead laptop batteries and power tools to re-use them for any of the above. And any other possible lithium battery out there

I've got the bug myself! Currently working on several of the above

Jupiter1

Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
Thanks

It's about time, I was happy to hear there will be charging for usage of the chargers.

It won't effect me much because I charge at home/work 95% of my driving , and as a Rex user I'd rather pay for convenience, I don't care if I have to pay for Petrol for the times I can't rely on the Public charging network, chargers in use, Queues, broken etc , so , I won't mind at all a 30 something cent per Kwh charge if I can actually get to use the chargers.

However, there is probably less incentive for me to use the DC Network now with the Rex and I use the AC Network more anyway considering I have 3 Phase 11 Kw charging, it makes a big difference and allows me significant charge by the time I do my business and I am happy to see more of an investment in AC.

I heard of talk about a excess charge above 30 mins usage ? remember cold battery charging can take a lot longer and of course any Leafs with hot batteries.

unkel

Jupiter1 wrote: »

Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
Thanks

At the ESB it's about twice as expensive as charging at home during the day rate. And about four times as expensive as charging at home on the night rate.

jusmeig

The eCar app seems to be gone? Replaced by EVPlugin. But this is all in pence!?

Black_Knight

Jupiter1 wrote: »

Hi there, so how much will it cost to charge a leaf 30 kW to 80% from about 10% using public charge??
How much will it cost at home using day rate with Energia?
I drive 120 kW 2 days a week in leaf so probably won't cost too much charging at home?? I still use granny lead.
Thanks

That would be 21kW to go from 10%(3kW) to 80%(24kW). 21kW @ 33 cent is €6.93 at the public chargers. Home Day rate is half that as unkle says, night rate is half that again.

Black_Knight

Some additional info on how ESB calculated the savings Vs diesel, and a mention of multiple ultra high speed chargers per station.
https://esb.ie/tns/press-centre/2019/2019/10/23/esb-ecars-introduce-pricing-to-support-ev-network-expansion

Jupiter1

Thanks lads for that feedback and pricing. So it might be worth looking into night rate?? Big price jump considering it was free for so long. I can see a lot of unhappy folks at public chargers. There will be no queues I say if people are paying. The other 22 kW chargers will be hard to get now as people will use those as still free.

Mickeroo

jusmeig wrote: »

The eCar app seems to be gone? Replaced by EVPlugin. But this is all in pence!?

The new ecar app isn't out yet, that app is for their chargers in the UK.

Mancomb Seepgood

Driving a Zoe this is a mixed bag.As already mentioned there is likely to be increased demand on the 22kw network,however it may mean less likelihood of PHEVs or slower charging Evs on the AC43 plugs.Given we don't have access to the Ionity/easygo fast chargers that can only be a good thing.

What would be a priority for me is ESB ensuring greater reliability on the AC side of their fast chargers,there seem to have been a lot of outages recently.Luckily I don't need to access the public chargers too often.

road_high

I’m surprised it’s been free for so long tbh! A regular complaint I hear is selfish idiots parking their EVs in spots for most of the day hogging it on everyone else. Hopefully this might go some way to solving this