Porsche Taycan

unkel

Porsche has been building cars for far longer than that. He made the world's first hybrid petrol electric car. 4WD and all. Rear wheels powered by a petrol ICE and the front wheels each powered by an electric motor.In 1898. A full 100 years before Toyota came out with the Prius. A few years later he made a 4WD BEV, with a motor in each wheel. 120 years ago. Something being picked up again today by some supercars.

Pkiernan

unkel wrote: »

Porsche has been building cars for far longer than that. He made the world's first hybrid petrol electric car. 4WD and all. Rear wheels powered by a petrol ICE and the front wheels each powered by an electric motor.In 1898. A full 100 years before Toyota came out with the Prius. A few years later he made a 4WD BEV, with a motor in each wheel. 120 years ago. Something being picked up again today by some supercars.

You wouldn't be pulling many birds in that yoke.

unkel

Pkiernan wrote: »

You wouldn't be pulling many birds in that yoke.

Back in the 19th century, 99.9999% of the world population would travel on foot or on something like this



I think the other 0.00001% got plenty of birds

kanuseeme

I like ass, but not that kind

Lumen

This popped up on my Youtube feed.

tldr: Taycan 4S "big battery" version can do 470km range at 90kph in April LA weather (warm battery but air con on).

Everyone compares the Taycan to the Model S, but I think it's more like a very expensive (and better built) Model 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3AvSjPGuzo

ELM327

It's not a comparison to the 3
It's a luxury sports car, the 3 is neither.

The S is a better american car, for drag strips and quarter miles, and the taycan is a better car if you want to drive one fast lap on the track before its inefficient battery runs out - and have 50k to spare in addition to the price of the model S performance.

In addition, I'd say the S would get at least 575km in that condition, maybe even get the WLTP range of 613km

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not a comparison to the 3
It's a luxury sports car, the 3 is neither.

The Taycan is not a sports car. It has four doors and weighs over 2 tonnes.

ELM327

Tell that to Porsche

sk8board

these days there’s a car for every niche, and all EVs are shoe-horned into a Tesla comparison.

It’s like every phone being an ‘iPhone killer’, when in reality the real choice is iOS v Android.

My opinion, in an Irish context, if you’re looking at a basic 911 carrera (€155-160k?) or a P100d model S performance (€120k?), and not considering a taycan S, you’re mad in the head

pdpmur

unkel wrote: »

Let's call a spade as spade here. Tesla is unable to make a car to the same quality standards as Porsche. Nor can it make a car that is as good to drive. And they probably never will.

It's not so much that it is unable, but rather it has not been the primary focus to date. Tesla has been in a very strong growth phase up to now. Tesla has been totally focused on getting cars out the door because there has been no shortage of buyers and the company needs to generate revenue.
Tesla is like Apple in that it knows that the aura around its product will overcome all shortcomings, at least in the short term.
There are obvious quality improvements being made on an incremental basis - they are not stupid and they know that they can reduce their overall costs whilst improving their product.

Mr Q

ELM327 wrote: »

The S is a better american car, for drag strips and quarter miles, and the taycan is a better car if you want to drive one fast lap on the track before its inefficient battery runs out - and have 50k to spare in addition to the price of the model S performance.

The model S starts at 95k here compared to 115k for the Taycan 4S. These are probably the models most likely to be the big sellers. Is it worth 20k more, to me it's the one i would buy. But others would choose the Tesla.

There are plenty or reviews already appearing showing the difference in range being much smaller than it is on paper. The EPA range for all the Taycans has been shown to be a joke by plenty of different outlets. Car and driver in the US had only a 10 mile range difference between the two cars in a test they ran.

sk8board

Mr Q wrote: »

The model S starts at 95k here compared to 115k for the Taycan 4S. These are probably the models most likely to be the big sellers. Is it worth 20k more, to me it's the one i would buy. But others would choose the Tesla.

If it’s any Tesla to compare, It’s the P100D performance, but the S is a one-car garage, while the guy spending €120k on a taycan in Ireland is more like a 911 buyer - maybe 5-7 of them sold annually to people who already own other cars, or wealthy singletons

ELM327

Mr Q wrote: »

The model S starts at 95k here compared to 115k for the Taycan 4S. These are probably the models most likely to be the big sellers. Is it worth 20k more, to me it's the one i would buy. But others would choose the Tesla.

There are plenty or reviews already appearing showing the difference in range being much smaller than it is on paper. The EPA range for all the Taycans has been shown to be a joke by plenty of different outlets. Car and driver in the US had only a 10 mile range difference between the two cars in a test they ran.

model S performance is 120k. Taycan turbo S is 180k.:eek::eek:
The cheaper taycan at 115k is not a match for the S performance.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

To be fair the porsche buyer never chose the porsche because it had the better numbers. I would love one, they look cool, and will be rare. They are also a lot more conventional than a tesla that will appeal to the classic porsche buyer. A halo product and a high tide raises all ships.

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

The cheaper taycan at 115k is not a match for the S performance.

Using what criteria? A single 0-60 run? Lap time? Steering feel? Agility? Grip? Progressive handling near the limit of grip?

Teslas are not the last word in performance, they "just" accelerate very quickly to legal speeds. The Model 3 is a lot better handling than the S, but it still runs out of talent quite quickly on an uneven surface.

ELM327

0-60 and 1/4 mile.
Let's be real, no one drives a lap of the nurburgring every day but they do floor it from the lights. This is the measure of "fast"

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

0-60 and 1/4 mile.
Let's be real, no one drives a lap of the nurburgring every day but they do floor it from the lights. This is the measure of "fast"

No, these are a measure of fast which Americans tend to focus on because their roads are mostly wide and straight.

And again, there is more to performance than numbers. Lap times are interesting but they don't make a great road car. Porsche make amongst the best fast cars in the world because of how the cars feel to drive. They also happen to be adequately fast.

ELM327

for me it ends with 0-60, 1/4mile times.
Other stuff is abstract and can't be defined.

I'm not interesting in "feeling fast" in my 100k "fast" car and being outdragged by a fast german saloon.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

ELM327 I would suggest you are not the usual porsche buyer. Porsche entire shtick is that they are not the best at any one thing, but that the cars are the best all rounders. Never fastest 0-60, never the most powerful, never the most traction, never the most grip. But that they dial each thing in to a level where is all works together in a synergy. More than the sum of its parts. They claim its the connoisseurs choice, and one that if you dont feel the same there is something wrong with your tastes or senses.

I dont agree myself with this, and I totally get your points. But there is a feel to a great car that the Taycan seems to have that others do not. I was aghast at the price of the Taycan, the interior is a jumbled mess they have just covered in leather, and the 800 volt thing is a red herring. But you have to admit, when a company like Porsche advertises and launches a sports EV they do such a good job.

The next model S is going to have levels of performance almost incompatible with life pushed on by the Taycan

sk8board

ELM327 wrote: »

0-60 and 1/4 mile.
Let's be real, no one drives a lap of the nurburgring every day but they do floor it from the lights. This is the measure of "fast"

A truly baffling statement. Bizarre.

Give us all €120k to spend on either a taycan S or a model S performance and you’ll see why the fractions of a second between 0-60 times literally makes no difference to which one 99/100 would choose.

0-60 and ring times work for web arguments between people who own none of the cars in question, and literally nothing else.

The Fiesta ST is 0-60 in 6.5sec and a slow ring time. Any car enthusiast would have one in a flash. Some many examples of ‘fast’ being immaterial.

ELM327

sk8board wrote: »

A truly baffling statement. Bizarre.

Give us all €120k to spend on either a taycan S or a model S performance and you’ll see why the fractions of a second between 0-60 times literally makes no difference to which one 99/100 would choose.

0-60 and ring times work for web arguments between people who own none of the cars in question, and literally nothing else.

The Fiesta ST is 0-60 in 6.5sec and a slow ring time. Any car enthusiast would have one in a flash. Some many examples of ‘fast’ being immaterial.

This is baffling.
"Any car enthusiast" having a fiesta ST? Pull the other one.
I'm a car enthusiast, have spent many many thousands of euro and hours chasing that hobby. No interest in a fiesta ST, when it comes to fiestas I'd prefer a facelift mark 3 1.8D endura. Or failing that a prefacelift mark 4 with either the 1.8D endura or the 1.3 kent engine.



120k for a Taycan will get you the base spec without such "options" as a type2 cable and folding mirrors.
120k for a model S will get you a performance spec car with ludicrous.


I detest your attitude of 1/4 mile times. I've owned many of the cars I quote them for, including my S, and ruled out others that I could have bought in the stead of cars I did buy. It's not a keyboard warrior thing.

Lumen

In many respects the Taycan and Teslas owe a lot to each other. Porsche always made very usable supercars, and then Tesla started doing the fast-but-usable thing better with electricity. Teslas may be no 911 to look at they're all better looking than the dog-taking-a-dump Panamera.

The Taycan would probably have been developed in the absence of Tesla, but it would have been a much slower journey. Historically Porsche have eked out performance a few bhp per year, and introduced performance variants late in the product cycle. It was possible to get 600bhp out of a 911 Turbo twenty years ago, but they didn't do it - they left that to aftermarket tuners, slowly cranking the base model up bit by bit.

Porsche was always going to find emissions a challenge, and so I think electrification would have come, but absent Tesla a Porsche electric car would probably have around 400bhp. BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsche would probably have slowly electrified their offerings, slotting big batteries under the floors of the SUV-shaped things.

Porsche were goaded by Elon into showing their cards early. It's all good.

On the subject of quality as evidenced by reliability, I note that carwow did a 15 least reliable cars video the other day based on average third party warranty repair costs x probability of repair. The Model S was at #15. The Porsche Cayenne was at #4. Still, I bet the doors shut with a nice thud.

I still maintain that the Taycan 4S is closest to a expensive Model 3 (both having four usable seats, adequate performance and range), that the Taycan "Turbo" variants are pointlessly fast and expensive, and that the Model S has no real competitors, but opinions will differ so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

The Taycan would probably have been developed in the absence of Tesla, but it would have been a much slower journey.

I think you can safely place that in a wider context again. EVs would have been upon us at some stage but Musk personally speeded up that process by a few decades.

garo

Lumen wrote: »

This popped up on my Youtube feed.

tldr: Taycan 4S "big battery" version can do 470km range at 90kph in April LA weather (warm battery but air con on).

Everyone compares the Taycan to the Model S, but I think it's more like a very expensive (and better built) Model 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3AvSjPGuzo

The bit about a mattress on the highway cracked me up. It IS such an LA thing.

slave1

Stolen from main Motors thread on new 202 reg plates.
Thar she blows

Lumen

Gulf blue? Love the irony.

ELM327

Would ya be well?
If that's the top spec (the only one worth getting) you could have two new teslas and change , and the teslas are faster.

dastardly00

I saw a Taycan today in Galway city... 202-D but I missed the rest of the number plate so not sure if it was a 4S, Turbo or Turbo S

TitianGerm

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

I'm actually flabbergasted, are these people idiots.

Pkiernan

TitianGerm wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

I'm actually flabbergasted, are these people idiots.

I've read through the article.
What should the couple have done?

Their only charge option was 45 mins at a 7kWhr charger.

TitianGerm

Pkiernan wrote: »

I've read through the article.
What should the couple have done?

Their only charge option was 45 mins at a 7kWhr charger.

Starting will a full charge might have done the trick? Poor planning on their part. I also find it had to believe it took 9 hours to go 130 miles no matter how many chargers were broken.

On their route I'd be very surprised if there were not a lot more chargers as well or even at their start point. The article says they needed to use lots of different apps to find the chargers. Would the use of A Better Route Planner not show the best ones to stop to maximize efficiency on the journey?

The article is also wrong in a few places, one example here - "The latest electric cars require fast 50kW-100kW chargers to refill on the go but they are hard to find and are often out of action". Don't think that's true? Can't all cars charge up to their maximum speed?

dastardly00

dastardly00 wrote: »

I saw a Taycan today in Galway city... 202-D but I missed the rest of the number plate so not sure if it was a 4S, Turbo or Turbo S

Saw this car again yesterday... It's a 4S - the cheap one :pac: