Ireland vs Russia, RWC pool A, Kobe, 11.15am Irish time

lawrencesummers

reg114 wrote: »

Joe has been a revelation.. up to this year. Our form has collapsed. Joe was given the credit for the huge improvement in recent years but with that comes heightened expectation. If England, SA , France , Australia or New zealand endured such a poor 2019 and dreadful world cup so far would their coach survive despite his previous success ? I dont believe so. Right now this is embarrassing.

I agree, but people around here can’t accept such truths.

One aspect of this which I think has been a mistake is the level which the 6 Nations was prioritized this year. We didn’t give enough players game time is certain positions and it is a problem now.

Players like Ruddock, Conan, Conway, Carthy, McGrath, Beirne, Scannell, Cronin and others have not been given enough time in the first team.

We are unlucky that Carbery is injured and Sexton isn’t able for it, but that only highlights the lack of depth in one position, the same is true of the second row, Hooker and FB.

If Best, Ryan or Kearney were to be as unavailable as Sexton then the backup is not near the level needed and we should have used the 6 nations to address that.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If Best, Ryan or Kearney were to be as unavailable as Sexton then the backup is not near the level needed and we should have used the 6 nations to address that.

There is no way to address it. The other options just aren't good enough and some game time in the 6N wouldn't have changed that.

That being said, Cronin started a match in the 6N, Larmour started a match at 15 in the 6N and 6 different players started at lock in the 6N.

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

He played 80 minutes against England in this years 6N. He also played 77 against Italy and 72 against Wales.

And until japan beat us they were the worst 3 performances of the year.

Sextons minutes since the warm up game are a worry. It’s way beyond being rested, he is in trouble.

teednab-el

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The point of the game was to get 5 points.....that is done


The point is to get out of the group and that is still on track


Losing player to injury is the issue. Nordi was playing well up till injury.


We need to decide what to do with Carbery. I can see why he is keeping him out but he is a waste of spot if never fit

You just don't get it. You cant see the bigger picture. These performances arent acceptable whether you like it or not.

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no way to address it. The other options just aren't good enough and some game time in the 6N wouldn't have changed that.

That being said, Cronin started a match in the 6N, Larmour started a match at 15 in the 6N and 6 different players started at lock in the 6N.

Exactly, they started 1 match in the 6 nations. Carthy got how many minutes in the 6 nations?

Look at what NZ did in the championship, they used it to gain mo’unga experience after McKenzie was declared out of the WC and are all the better for it now.

aloooof

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I agree, but people around here can’t accept such truths.

One aspect of this which I think has been a mistake is the level which the 6 Nations was prioritized this year. We didn’t give enough players game time is certain positions and it is a problem now.

Players like Ruddock, Conan, Conway, Carthy, McGrath, Beirne, Scannell, Cronin and others have not been given enough time in the first team.

We are unlucky that Carbery is injured and Sexton isn’t able for it, but that only highlights the lack of depth in one position, the same is true of the second row, Hooker and FB.

If Best, Ryan or Kearney were to be as unavailable as Sexton then the backup is not near the level needed and we should have used the 6 nations to address that.

Some people have seriously short memories. In 2011 we brought Tony Buckley and Tom Court. In 2007 we brought Bryan Young and Brian Carney! This is the stongest depth we've ever had.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And until japan beat us they were the worst 3 performances of the year.

Sextons minutes since the warm up game are a worry. It’s way beyond being rested, he is in trouble.

Which is an entirely different point to your original (incorrect) point but ok.

Yes, they are clearly minding him and it is a slightly worry. The plan was to play 60 min against Samoa apparently so let's see what happens there. While Carty is not helping matters, Ireland's main problem stems from their pretty terrible work at the breakdown anyway.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Exactly, they started 1 match in the 6 nations. Carthy got how many minutes in the 6 nations?

Look at what NZ did in the championship, they used it to gain mo’unga experience after McKenzie was declared out of the WC and are all the better for it now.

34 minutes. He is the third choice outhalf, while he could have gotten some more time it ultimately wouldn't have made much difference. Had Sexton been declared out of the world cup, Carty would have gotten more gametime.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Players like Ruddock, Conan, Conway, Carthy, McGrath, Beirne, Scannell, Cronin and others have not been given enough time in the first team.

Ruddock was out with a hamstring injury, Conan played three games, Jack Carty was brought in for the first time against Italy and we also had Ross Byrne involved. Luke McGrath was out with a knee injury. Sean Cronin actually made his first Irish start and wasn't Niall Scannell injured as well?

Henry Ford III

A win and 5 points is as much as we could get from the game.

Just as well there is no such thing as style or skill points however.

The last 2 performances have been quite poor.

It's hard realistically to see us getting past a quarter final.

prawnsambo

Henry Ford III wrote: »

A win and 5 points is as much as we could get from the game.

Just as well there is no such thing as style or skill points however.

The last 2 performances have been quite poor.

It's hard realistically to see us getting past a quarter final.

Yippee! We're underdogs again.

fryup

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The last 2 performances have been quite poor.

It's hard realistically to see us getting past a quarter final.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yippee! We're underdogs again.

as sh!te as we've been over the last two games i still expect one big performance from this irish team...nothing to lose give it a lash
..so who knows :cool:

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your head is deep in the sand if you think our biggest issue is losing a player to injury or anything to do with Carbery. It’s debatable if he should have been there in the first place but completely irrelevant because our biggest problem isnt the current third choice OH. It’s the first choice 10 who can’t play 50 minutes of a game two weeks before a QF, and hasn’t played 80 minutes in a very very very long time.

This is hilarious....


Everyone spends ages moaning because Joe won't give playes time. Complain that Sexton and Murray have too much time on the pitch


The game was won. Sexton was fully fit and they gave time to the stand in 10 so he would be ready in case he has to play in a qtr. Murray didnt even start and the reserve 9 got a full match under his belt....


Now people are complaining because Joe didntplay Sexton for the full game


No matter what Ireland do people will find fault....I just think the negativity is hilarious

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I agree, but people around here can’t accept such truths.

One aspect of this which I think has been a mistake is the level which the 6 Nations was prioritized this year. We didn’t give enough players game time is certain positions and it is a problem now.

Players like Ruddock, Conan, Conway, Carthy, McGrath, Beirne, Scannell, Cronin and others have not been given enough time in the first team.

We are unlucky that Carbery is injured and Sexton isn’t able for it, but that only highlights the lack of depth in one position, the same is true of the second row, Hooker and FB.

If Best, Ryan or Kearney were to be as unavailable as Sexton then the backup is not near the level needed and we should have used the 6 nations to address that.

Sexton isnt able for it based on what?

By the looks of it Carty is going to be the reserve 10 for remainder of competition so the more mins he gets the better. Would you not agree?

P.S. in the 6 nation we tried Henshaw at FB, Larmour as well
Scannel and Cronin got the Italy match......plus other time inbetween in all games

No idea why you are talking about Second row, Ryan is once in a lifetime player so how are you supposed to cover for him? we do have excellent cover and have Toner sitting in reserve......

splinter65

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yea, because being the best team in the world the day the competition starts means you should Harbour zero ambition of living up to your scientific, results and form based ranking.

Is there not a big big difference between the notion of the “best team in the world” and the mathematical equation that supports the idea of the “top ranked team in the world”?

whatcanidonow

Podge_irl wrote: »

By people with a memory of about 3 years maybe or people who are simply incapable of judging these things properly. 2007 remains in a league of its own with no other recent campaign deserving of mentioning in the same breath to be honest.

Ultimately its a world cup. If you go out in the quarters it really doesn't matter what else happened in it.

In 2007 we lost to France and Argentina. We're in a far easier group this year. Losing to Japan is one of our worst world cup results. A whipping against South Africa or New Zealand would make this a woeful tournament. No hiding from it.

lawrencesummers

splinter65 wrote: »

Is there not a big big difference between the notion of the “best team in the world” and the mathematical equation that supports the idea of the “top ranked team in the world”?

There is, but the idea that the best team in the world shouldn’t harbour ambitions to be world champions is ridiculous (the original point was that we never had a realistic chance)

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton isnt able for it based on what?

By the looks of it Carty is going to be the reserve 10 for remainder of competition so the more mins he gets the better. Would you not agree?

P.S. in the 6 nation we tried Henshaw at FB, Larmour as well
Scannel and Cronin got the Italy match......plus other time inbetween in all games

No idea why you are talking about Second row, Ryan is once in a lifetime player so how are you supposed to cover for him? we do have excellent cover and have Toner sitting in reserve......

Sexton wasn’t able for the game against Scotland, Murray had to kick.
Sexton wasn’t able for the game against japan, even on the bench.
Sexton wasnt able to play more than 40 minutes today.
Sexton wasn’t able for more than one appearance in the warm ups.

For what should be the pinnacle of his career he is being wrapped in cotton and it’s a bad sign.

Raisins

teednab-el wrote: »

You just don't get it. You cant see the bigger picture. These performances arent acceptable whether you like it or not.

Maybe you can't see the big picture...what do you mean these performances "aren't acceptable"? They're doing their best. That's a bit arrogant coming from a country which has never progressed past a QF. At best they have the fourth best squad at the world cup - they can beat anyone on their day and lose to any of the tier 1 nations (or japan) on a bad day.

BarryD2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is hilarious.... No matter what Ireland do people will find fault....I just think the negativity is hilarious

The win and maximum points are positive. What people are negative or realistic about is that we appear to have pretty much one mode of playing. A lot of it through the middle with box kicks & chase thrown in. Sexton tried some cross field kicks early on in that game today and they didn't work out in the moment but after that, it was back to the close game. We can overpower weaker teams with that style but it's not going to cut the mustard against a team that has the means to stop it. They just get up in our faces and we grind to a lateral halt. What do we do then?

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

34 minutes. He is the third choice outhalf, while he could have gotten some more time it ultimately wouldn't have made much difference. Had Sexton been declared out of the world cup, Carty would have gotten more gametime.

Exactly, we have a second choice OH who had 34 minutes.

That’s exceptional preparation in a position where the two other players are so injury prone.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Sexton wasn’t able for the game against Scotland, Murray had to kick.
Sexton wasn’t able for the game against japan, even on the bench.
Sexton wasnt able to play more than 40 minutes today.
Sexton wasn’t able for more than one appearance in the warm ups.

For what should be the pinnacle of his career he is being wrapped in cotton and it’s a bad sign.

Sexton before the WC came out and said in the last two he has failed to make a Qtr.....he wont let that happen again as this is his final WC


Unless you are a qualified medic you have no idea.....what would suggest he wasn't fit to play another 40?



You have no idea but you keep firing out these statements as if you know something. Unless you are talking to Sexton directly it would be best to keep you guesses to yourself

lawrencesummers

Raisins wrote: »

Maybe you can't see the big picture...what do you mean these performances "aren't acceptable"? They're doing their best. That's a bit arrogant coming from a country which has never progressed past a QF. At best they have the fourth best squad at the world cup - they can beat anyone on their day and lose to any of the tier 1 nations (or japan) on a bad day.

You can’t put “doing their best” and losing to Japan in the same sentence. They clearly are not doing their best.

Our best wins grand slams and beats all the SH teams. This is way way way below our best.

FrancieBrady

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Sexton wasn’t able for the game against Scotland, Murray had to kick.
Sexton wasn’t able for the game against japan, even on the bench.
Sexton wasnt able to play more than 40 minutes today.
Sexton wasn’t able for more than one appearance in the warm ups.

For what should be the pinnacle of his career he is being wrapped in cotton and it’s a bad sign.

A bad sign of what?

He is an individual talent of his generation who isn't injuring himself intentionally as far as I can see.
I want him there and as fit as is physically possible on the big days. Fair play if they can negotiate his welfare to that QF, it cannot be easy.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Exactly, we have a second choice OH who had 34 minutes.

That’s exceptional preparation in a position where the two other players are so injury prone.

Sexton comes off with no injuries and Carty get 40 mins


You complaing because Sexton comes off
Then you complain because the other OH doesn't get minutes


So which one do you want?

jprender

I think Joe and the lads are playing a blinder.

We are doing just enough to get through the groups.
A few timely knock-ons, the lads pretending to be knackered on the pitch.
All the other teams believe that we are in disarray, and we'll be easy pickings.

Ireland have obviously played their cards close to their chest so as not to give any clues to the opposition of what we have in store for them once the knockout stages begin.

Joe is a genius.

#WCchamps2019

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stats here.

Its a lot easier to make the tackle when the guy with the ball is standing still...

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You can’t put “doing their best” and losing to Japan in the same sentence. They clearly are not doing their best.

Our best wins grand slams and beats all the SH teams. This is way way way below our best.

We dont need our best till Qtr's.....said this before the tournament and still the same....we need to just get out of the group.....

Raisins

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You can’t put “doing their best” and losing to Japan in the same sentence. They clearly are not doing their best.

Our best wins grand slams and beats all the SH teams. This is way way way below our best.

You don't understand the difference between "playing their best" and "doing their best".

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton before the WC came out and said in the last two he has failed to make a Qtr.....he wont let that happen again as this is his final WC


Unless you are a qualified medic you have no idea.....what would suggest he wasn't fit to play another 40?



You have no idea but you keep firing out these statements as if you know something. Unless you are talking to Sexton directly it would be best to keep you guesses to yourself

And here we have it, your contradictions are becoming the stuff of legend.

Your happy to say that he wasn’t fit to play japan, when his experience and impact from the bench was needed, presumably because your a qualified medic and in touch with him, and because joe was lying that he was fit.

Sexton is in trouble, the dogs on the street can see it, but your blinded by some blue love.
.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Its a lot easier to make the tackle when the guy with the ball is standing still...

That's not the only thing you can draw from those stats. One of which I posted earlier; They made almost double what they had in the previous match and were still tackling well at the end. I'm sure their coach will be happy with that. I would be.

lawrencesummers

Raisins wrote: »

You don't understand the difference between "playing their best" and "doing their best".

You have me there.

So explain to me the difference between professional rugby athletes doing their best and playing their best.

And let’s just ignore that the post I quoted said “doing their best”

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Exactly, we have a second choice OH who had 34 minutes.

That’s exceptional preparation in a position where the two other players are so injury prone.

He’s quite clearly third choice with a reasonable gap to Carberry.

I’m all for valid criticism but this is nonsense. Our position at 10 was thrown into disarray a bit with the Jackson situation. Carberry has clearly been groomed to take that’s position instead and a reasonable job has been done. Carty is the third choice who they hope won’t have to play too much. A few more minutes in the 6N would not have made Carty any better a player.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And here we have it, your contradictions are becoming the stuff of legend.

Your happy to say that he wasn’t fit to play japan, when his experience and impact from the bench was needed, presumably because your a qualified medic and in touch with him, and because joe was lying that he was fit.

Sexton is in trouble, the dogs on the street can see it, but your blinded by some blue love.
.

Good grief. Are we still going on about this? Sexton himself said he didn't train in the early part of the week and admitted that this affected his chances of playing at the weekend.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And here we have it, your contradictions are becoming the stuff of legend.

Your happy to say that he wasn’t fit to play japan, when his experience and impact from the bench was needed, presumably because your a qualified medic and in touch with him, and because joe was lying that he was fit.

Sexton is in trouble, the dogs on the street can see it, but your blinded by some blue love.
.

You have been for 2 weeks now and you have no information. He played perfect today, took all kicks but you seem to think he was injured?

Who told you he wasn't or was fit for Japan?

I dont any of these dogs you refer to....who are they? medics?

What has Leinster got to do with Sexton fitness?

blinding

We still don’t have the strength in debt needed at this level . Between warm up games and group games we lose too many players through injury . Our playing pool is too small . Just not enough people playing rugby in Ireland at high enough level or all levels for that matter .

Our forwards don’t have the impact / grunt / ya know what I mean . I don’t know what other countries are feeding them but they are getting more grunt out of them .

Burkie1203

QF pack

Healy Best Furlong
Ryan Henderson
Ruddock VDF Stander

POM just isn't performing. I see TRK praise him in the Examiner for duly obliging with a big game pressuring the Russian lineout and forcing a few errors and making a compelling case to wear the #7 jersey again.

Now I only saw parts of the game but he hasn't been delivering consistently for a while and what I saw today was another very poor game.

Vinnie222

Burkie1203 wrote: »

QF pack

Healy Best Furlong
Ryan Henderson
Ruddock VDF Stander

POM just isn't performing. I see TRK praise him in the Examiner for duly obliging with a big game pressuring the Russian lineout and forcing a few errors and making a compelling case to wear the #7 jersey again.

Now I only saw parts of the game but he hasn't been delivering consistently for a while and what I saw today was another very poor game.

Heaslip also praise him. I thought he had a better game today. Made some nice run

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's not the only thing you can draw from those stats. One of which I posted earlier; They made almost double what they had in the previous match and were still tackling well at the end. I'm sure their coach will be happy with that. I would be.

Oh it certainly shows them in a good light, would have been easy to throw in towel...if they were 40 behind at half time, but we kept them at least interested so they kept tackling.

Similar to how we kept Japan in it.

But, if we had played better they would have had more missed tackles, my point was that one out, stationary runners are cannon fodder to big, unskilled lads. Hitting a fella doesnt take skill or professionalism, so our "attack" played right into their hands.

It would be like Samoa suddenly deciding that they aren't going to run it and instead are going to rely on their scrum and lineout against SA.

Faugheen

I thought POM had a very good first half but faded in the second, to be honest.

whatcanidonow

Burkie1203 wrote: »

QF pack

Healy Best Furlong
Ryan Henderson
Ruddock VDF Stander

POM just isn't performing. I see TRK praise him in the Examiner for duly obliging with a big game pressuring the Russian lineout and forcing a few errors and making a compelling case to wear the #7 jersey again.

Now I only saw parts of the game but he hasn't been delivering consistently for a while and what I saw today was another very poor game.

O'Mahony was close to man of the match today but it was against Russia b. Every player has to be judged on the opposition. O'Mahony offers more than Ruddock.

Joma4good

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We don't have any choice do we?
If we do it, well done.
If we don't, then it is back to the drawing board and find out what went wrong and try again next time.
Will I shout any less loud for them? No.





Your 'contract' must be different to mine. Because if the team lose, then there is nothing I can do but accept it. I committed to hoping they can do better next time out though.



I have seen 2 entirely different teams come out within a week of one another many times in rugby. (not just with Ireland either)

Joe was never going to be sacked before a tournament starts or during it. Fantasy stuff to think that would happen, whether he deserves it or not. (which remains to be seen)

Great post, should be pinned on every match thread.
The footstamping is embarrassing, if you’re a rival supporter then naturally you might want to kick while we’re down just for the craic but for so many to be claiming they want to see Ireland do well whilst posting so much negative ****e is very poor form. I don’t see any players or staff not giving it their all, it hasn’t gone to plan so far but we’re still facing the same obstacle that we would always have had in the quarterfinals, even if we had cruised through the group stages.

aloooof

Burkie1203 wrote: »

POM just isn't performing. I see TRK praise him in the Examiner for duly obliging with a big game pressuring the Russian lineout and forcing a few errors and making a compelling case to wear the #7 jersey again.

Now I only saw parts of the game but he hasn't been delivering consistently for a while and what I saw today was another very poor game.

I'd like to see the game again, but this really wasn't my take at all. Thought he was among our better players tbh, with his best performance in awhile. I'd have had him in with a shout of MOTM.

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

He’s quite clearly third choice with a reasonable gap to Carberry.

I’m all for valid criticism but this is nonsense. Our position at 10 was thrown into disarray a bit with the Jackson situation. Carberry has clearly been groomed to take that’s position instead and a reasonable job has been done. Carty is the third choice who they hope won’t have to play too much. A few more minutes in the 6N would not have made Carty any better a player.

Paddy Jackson???
That’s two years ago, and he wasn’t exactly pushing out Sexton for the 10’jersey anyway, he was a good OH, but not great.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

The dream is dying.

It looks like we've once again made a balls of the world cup. And it hurts more this time.

The All Blacks similarly were chronic underachievers at the world cup. Whatever they did after 2007 is what we need to do. We just seem incapable of performing on the big stage.

It's not about these results only. When you take 2019 as a whole into account the trend is clear: we are a physically limited team against bigger teams or faster teams. We have very little imagination in attack and we are critically reliant on a handful of often injured or out of form players. We also have a headcoach who is being out thought more often than not.

With 3 games into a WC we have 2 bonus point wins and a bonus point loss


Very quick for people to call our demise.....

If we said that at the start of tournament without saying who results where against we would say it wasn't ideal but still in our hands to get out of group......

Ireland have played 12 times since the start of the year.

Vs England : absolute ****e.

Vs Scotland : very average.

Vs Italy : ****e

Vs France : decent.

Vs Wales: apocalyptically ****e.

Vs Italy: okay.

Vs England: Absolutely ****e.

Vs Wales: okay.

Vs Wales: back to 2018 form.

Vs Scotland: 2018 form.

Vs Japan: ****e.

Vs Russia: ****e.

Up until recently I've been able to say that it was just a bad six nations while focusing on the world cup or just a bad warm up, sure it's only a friendly. Everyone was saying this with the implication that this was a deviation from the norm which was 2018.

We have to accept that this is the new norm. Ireland are very, very average now. Are we still capable of a big win? I have no idea. There's no evidence to suggest it.

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You have been for 2 weeks now and you have no information. He played perfect today, took all kicks but you seem to think he was injured?

Who told you he wasn't or was fit for Japan?

I dont any of these dogs you refer to....who are they? medics?

What has Leinster got to do with Sexton fitness?

Joe

Podge_irl

whatcanidonow wrote: »

O'Mahony was close to man of the match today but it was against Russia b. Every player has to be judged on the opposition. O'Mahony offers more than Ruddock.

The actual man of the match...

O'Mahony offers something different to Ruddock alright. But we are desperately missing the strength in contact that Ruddock brought today.

blinding

A manager announcing he is going at a certain date in the future hardly if ever works to the good .

Andy Farrell was strongly involved with England in a disastrous World Cup . Is he on the same track with Ireland this time ?

Has Ireland performance dis-improved since Farrell became involved ?

lawrencesummers

troyzer wrote: »

Ireland have played 12 times since the start of the year.

Vs England : absolute ****e.

Vs Scotland : very average.

Vs Italy : ****e

Vs France : decent.

Vs Wales: apocalyptically ****e.

Vs Italy: okay.

Vs England: Absolutely ****e.

Vs Wales: okay.

Vs Wales: back to 2018 form.

Vs Scotland: 2018 form.

Vs Japan: ****e.

Vs Russia: ****e.

Up until recently I've been able to say that it was just a bad six nations while focusing on the world cup or just a bad warm up, sure it's only a friendly. Everyone was saying this with the implication that this was a deviation from the norm which was 2018.

We have to accept that this is the new norm. Ireland are very, very average now. Are we still capable of a big win? I have no idea. There's no evidence to suggest it.

Beating a welsh team that is disinterested in a warm up and a terrible Scottish team does not constitute 2018 form.

We haven’t played a game this year that suggests we are anywhere near the level of 2018.

thebaz

Joe sort of hinted that sexton will play Samoa, I would much prefer he was on the bench and given 20 at end of game - I fear some of the early big Somoan hits, and fear Sexton will be targeted , I would think Carberyy/ Carty should get the job done and will both have learnt from Japan.