Star Trek Discovery ***Season 3*** [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

youcancallmeal

With every episode they stray further from the Star Trek light. Discovery is like a poorly written but very well budgeted fan fiction

Agent Coulson

Michael Burnham is such a dislikeable character and really puts me off watching the series.

RandomViewer

Have watched Picard over the last few nights and found it much more likeable, Each character is given some development ,possibly because the 80 year old Stewart not being able for some of the scenes

CastorTroy

Apart from official podcasts and other tie ins does anyone like Burnham? And if there are Burnham fans, what is their reasoning? A strong, black female character?

And at this point how would they go about changing things to make it less about her? It might seem pretty jarring if we start off season 4 focusing on other characters. Think if they started focusing more on other characters it might seem more like they're seeing up a spinoff.

TheValeyard

RandomViewer wrote: »

Have watched Picard over the last few nights and found it much more likeable, Each character is given some development ,possibly because the 80 year old Stewart not being able for some of the scenes

Picard started off very strong, just completely lost its way towards the end.

pixelburp

TheValeyard wrote: »

Picard started off very strong, just completely lost its way towards the end.

Picard's one overall strength was that it gave Data a much superior send-off than Nemesis ever was. The show spiralled off into insanity but the scene in the last episode, with Picard helping Data experience the android's life dream was bittersweet. The rest of that episode was hot garbage, but that scene was a big saving grace.

I think this has finally surpassed Picard for me as the worst Trek ever. And I include all and any of Enterprise in that, though I really liked most of enterprise watching back.

Baggly

I did a rewatch of ENT on the back of my last posts in this thread and i have to say....its actually grand.

Maybe in 10 years time ill rewatch STD and it too will be grand....?

ilovesmybrick

TheValeyard wrote: »

Picard started off very strong, just completely lost its way towards the end.

While I do agree that Picard was, overall, a bit dissapointing, mostly due to the final couple of episodes and some insane decisions (the ctrl + v fleet and the really poor way they used the Borg at the end) I still enjoyed it and looked forward to the episodes. I also didn't find myself groaning at scenes or making fun of the show. The writing was a bit stronger, and it had the advantage of characters that were fully developed (prior to the series), so we got some character development on the newly introduced characters. Dahj, Agnes, Rios and Raffi all had some form of character development or arc. You could at least imagine them having lived experiences away from Picards adventure.

In contrast the writing on discovery is poorer, after three seasons the character development, aside from Saru, ranges from poor to lacking, and I don't think Martin Green is a particularly strong actress to carry a show. Aside from Saru, and maybe Culber and Stamets, do any of these characters, after three seasons, strike you as having any kind of life or personality outside of the show?

pixelburp

I had thought that once some consistency within the production team was established, and the crazy merry-go-round of producers and directions therein had stopped, Discovery might finally attain some kind of pattern or identity. But while there were hints at the start of Season 3 this might finally have happened - I think the show is too far gone to save. There's going to be a Season 4 but better at this point to tear things up and put focus into another Trek show.

Being as it is the streaming era, we have next to zero idea how successful Disco is, either on CBS or Netflix, so this could remain a smash hit and indicators point towards the general public feeling differently to here. It's hard to know. Heck maybe Netflix paid a fortune and it's money for old rope wiht CBS (wouldn't be the first time with Netflix overpaying for something). The rot is too deep with this show and better that it's allowed die with some degree of dignity, let the franchise move forward with something fresh and definitive in its focus.

breezy1985

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

While I do agree that Picard was, overall, a bit dissapointing, mostly due to the final couple of episodes and some insane decisions (the ctrl + v fleet and the really poor way they used the Borg at the end) I still enjoyed it and looked forward to the episodes. I also didn't find myself groaning at scenes or making fun of the show. The writing was a bit stronger, and it had the advantage of characters that were fully developed (prior to the series), so we got some character development on the newly introduced characters. Dahj, Agnes, Rios and Raffi all had some form of character development or arc. You could at least imagine them having lived experiences away from Picards adventure.

In contrast the writing on discovery is poorer, after three seasons the character development, aside from Saru, ranges from poor to lacking, and I don't think Martin Green is a particularly strong actress to carry a show. Aside from Saru, and maybe Culber and Stamets, do any of these characters, after three seasons, strike you as having any kind of life or personality outside of the show?

Same here the Picard crew have mostly stuck with me. The names, motivation, personality all stuck in my head pretty easy and outside of the Romulan ninja and Lannisters I liked the crew. Agnes was an easy one as I like the actor but Rios and Soji I had no expectations for but worked really well for me.

I would also say Stamets, Culber and Saru are the best but even they annoy me at times especially Saru this season

ilovesmybrick

breezy1985 wrote: »

especially Saru this season

I agree, though I would probably say that I'm more disappointed than annoyed with Saru's character. They set up a potentially very interesting developmental arc in season 2 for him, and then made him the captain of an outdated ship in a future vastly different from where they came from. And they did nothing with it but undermine any authority he had and spent no time exploring his new captaincy or the changes he experienced in season 2. This one nod maybe to this is when the admiral, out of nowhere, states the reason he didn't let them know about the nebula was because he hadn't seen a Kelpian in a while-which is a questionable assumption anyway since when he joined starfleet he had left all Kelpians behind forever.

The entire thing seems to be set up to make Saru seem to be a poor choice for captain so that it's passed tro Burnham with Saru's acquiescence. I really hope not, but this is not a show that has ever shown any subtletly or nuance.

~Rebel~

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I agree, though I would probably say that I'm more disappointed than annoyed with Saru's character. They set up a potentially very interesting developmental arc in season 2 for him, and then made him the captain of an outdated ship in a future vastly different from where they came from. And they did nothing with it but undermine any authority he had and spent no time exploring his new captaincy or the changes he experienced in season 2. This one nod maybe to this is when the admiral, out of nowhere, states the reason he didn't let them know about the nebula was because he hadn't seen a Kelpian in a while-which is a questionable assumption anyway since when he joined starfleet he had left all Kelpians behind forever.

The entire thing seems to be set up to make Saru seem to be a poor choice for captain so that it's passed tro Burnham with Saru's acquiescence. I really hope not, but this is not a show that has ever shown any subtletly or nuance.

On this subject from Burnham’s POV, I’ve always wondered if that was the original long term intention of the show - like career mode in FIFA, where you start as an unknown player and build your ability and career, was the idea to start with a disgraced officer who has to build from nothing to become captain over a few seasons?

Wouldn’t have been a bad idea at all, but has been horribly handled if so - she’s been overpowered and over important pretty much from the start, which sort of leaves nowhere to go besides a growing god complex.

Jheaney

would the show work if burnham was killed off?

flazio

Jheaney wrote: »

would the show work if burnham was killed off?

It would be saved from the brink.

TheValeyard

Jheaney wrote: »

would the show work if burnham was killed off?

Or just erase her from the timeline.

TheValeyard

TheValeyard wrote: »

Or just erase her from the timeline.

There's precedence that she be never spoken about... let that sink in. Hmmmm. Second time's a charm?

CastorTroy

TheValeyard wrote: »

Or just erase her from the timeline.

I'm surprised we haven't had the "What if she never existed" episode yet, just to show its how important she is

Rawr

CastorTroy wrote: »

I'm surprised we haven't had the "What if she never existed" episode yet, just to show its how important she is

I think Episode 2 might have been an attempt at that...which only went to show how good the show could have been without her.

Rawr

Jheaney wrote: »

would the show work if burnham was killed off?

Given that structure of this show is built around Martin-Green being the central star, they'd likely end the show upon Michael's death. Discovery has enough going for it to be an alright Trek show *without Burnham* but the contractual mill-stone of having Martin-Green's character in the middle of damn near everything might make it easier to just make a new Trek show without her, which they appear to have been trying to do.

I honestly wish they we're more honest with the naming of Star Trek: Discovery, and actually call it Star Trek: Burnham / Star Trek: Michael, because that appears to be the heart of what they intended this show to be.

pixelburp

Man, I've stalled at that (first) Mirror Universe episode: I've given the show a lot of bandwidth, looking past the sometimes quite overt flaws - but I'm barely managing to summon the interest to continue and it's entirely down that shíte with Georghiu. I don't hate the show, not in the sense some here clearly do, but the snarling camp of its alternate universe is a big pill to swallow.

JeffKenna

pixelburp wrote: »

Man, I've stalled at that (first) Mirror Universe episode: I've given the show a lot of bandwidth, looking past the sometimes quite overt flaws - but I'm barely managing to summon the interest to continue and it's entirely down that shíte with Georghiu. I don't hate the show, not in the sense some here clearly do, but the snarling camp of its alternate universe is a big pill to swallow.

I actually thought the mirror universe episodes were the best of the season. I'm stuck on episode 11 and can't gather the strength to watch anymore of it.

FunLover18

pixelburp wrote: »

Man, I've stalled at that (first) Mirror Universe episode: I've given the show a lot of bandwidth, looking past the sometimes quite overt flaws - but I'm barely managing to summon the interest to continue and it's entirely down that shíte with Georghiu. I don't hate the show, not in the sense some here clearly do, but the snarling camp of its alternate universe is a big pill to swallow.

Honestly, you could skip it and just Google what happens. It has no relevance to the major arc.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Man, I've stalled at that (first) Mirror Universe episode: I've given the show a lot of bandwidth, looking past the sometimes quite overt flaws - but I'm barely managing to summon the interest to continue and it's entirely down that shíte with Georghiu. I don't hate the show, not in the sense some here clearly do, but the snarling camp of its alternate universe is a big pill to swallow.

Part two of the mirror universe is the musical episode. Who knew Stamets had such a good voice.

If you don't like musicals you could just skip it, you'd not miss much other than space Hitler leaving this series.

EltonJohn69

Watching the mandalorian alongside this show has done it very few favours.

Goodshape

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Watching the mandalorian alongside this show has done it very few favours.

Even worse alongside The Expanse.

I don't mean to go on and on about it, but the difference in quality is shocking. I was watching the latest episode of Expanse last night and it occurred to me that maybe it's a location thing.

Maybe Discovery is filmed in LA and it's just got this blockbuster attitude where everything needs to be flash-bang exciting, and actors and crew that are just caught up in the Hollywood noise, with ego's that would prefer to be doing movies.

Maybe The Expanse is produced somewhere away from the glitz and glam and they've "had to settle" for stage actors or something. Bit more gravitas, bit less ego.

Maybe that accounts for some of the diff.... nope. THEY'RE FILMED IN THE SAME STUDIO IN CANADA!! Literally both filmed in Pinewood Toronto. Jesus I wish they'd share some knowledge of how to do the job.


I actually enjoy watching The Expanse and half-imagining it's a Star Trek reboot, showing us a more troubled time that leads into the formation of the UFP. Probably wouldn't have been worth the effort 20 years ago, but Star Trek: Enterprise should have been something like this.

H3llR4iser

pixelburp wrote: »

Not to command rank. I like Tilly and have defended her throughout the show. She's just another iteration of the Lt Barclay character, that awkward bumbling type. Basically, us, if we ever found ourselves on a starship. But Tilly just ain't a commander and the emotional hoops this show is trying to spin to justify it is really stretching my own patience.

I admire the sentiment it tries to convey -, which is basically that of love and support, a sadly lacking theme in many TV drama - but it's overriding basic pragmatism at every juncture now.

With one caveat I've explained before - Barclay is shown to be, if anything, extremely competent as an engineer, whereas the rest of the characters on TNG (and Voyager later on) dismiss him and his ideas based off of his character faults. Whenever he has an idea or reports an issue, the Enterprise senior staff dismiss him based on the fact he's a socially awkward hypochondriac with an holo-addiction problem. Heck, even Geordi (who was played more than a bit like the 'awkward-around-women-nerd-type' in the first couple of seasons) disses him, not to mention Troi (who as ship counselor is supposed to help him).

Barclay started off as a joke/cheap shot at what is perceived as a significant chunk of Star Trek's audience, yet became a popular character because that specific part of the audience saw not a dig at them, but their own struggles in him - and that he would occasionally succeed fighting an uphill battle to get the rest of the crew to take him seriously.

Tilly...nothing of this at all; Her character is basically defined by the fact everyone else on the ship think she is "great", for no clear reason whatsoever. In this she's equal but opposite to Barclay - their personal "issues" are equally self made, but whereas Reggie had to find it in himself to assert his competence, Tilly pretty much always relies on the help and consideration of the rest of the crew, Saru and Stamets being the main enablers.

beauf wrote: »

This exactly.
There's so much focus on that aspect that that I often forget what the objective of the episode, or even the main story line is. I simply lose interest. They go so far off the point, when they return to it, I've lost all context.

Precisely that - I basically found myself struggling to follow and getting otherworldly bored during the "dead space" segments into each episode.
I've honestly skipped the last 4/5 ones, just reading recaps online with a secret wish of finding something in there telling me "oh, maybe I should catch up". If anything, what I've read (including the last episode coming around tonight in Europe) just pushed me further away.

TheValeyard

There is still hope.


Star Trek: New Worlds

breezy1985

Goodshape wrote: »

Even worse alongside The Expanse.

I don't mean to go on and on about it, but the difference in quality is shocking. I was watching the latest episode of Expanse last night and it occurred to me that maybe it's a location thing.

Maybe Discovery is filmed in LA and it's just got this blockbuster attitude where everything needs to be flash-bang exciting, and actors and crew that are just caught up in the Hollywood noise, with ego's that would prefer to be doing movies.

Maybe The Expanse is produced somewhere away from the glitz and glam and they've "had to settle" for stage actors or something. Bit more gravitas, bit less ego.

Maybe that accounts for some of the diff.... nope. THEY'RE FILMED IN THE SAME STUDIO IN CANADA!! Literally both filmed in Pinewood Toronto. Jesus I wish they'd share some knowledge of how to do the job.

The Expanse is better in every way except actors where both shows are hit and miss.


The plot, the arc and the continuity, the way characters talk and interact and most of all the lighting are far superior on the Expanse. One works on multiple levels while the other is a Netflix style teen show repackaged as Star Trek cause call backs and brand familiarity sell.

Compare Marcos to Osyraa and you get a good view of the difference in depth between the two

pixelburp

FunLover18 wrote: »

Honestly, you could skip it and just Google what happens. It has no relevance to the major arc.

I kinda hate that, that unwatched status beside the episode would just annoy me, more than the Terrain Universe does lol.

So I brute forced it, watched episode 10 and yeah, hated all the snarling camp again. But the drinks in the bridge. Sigh. Discovery's key writing flaw is how it keeps showing emotions utterly unearned against prior actions by its characters. Tilly toasting Georghiu? Tilly, love, the Terran was a thundering c*nt to you, she wasn't "badass". There you go again Discovery, telling never showing.

So with shows I'm a bit meh about I'm usually a bit more freewheeling with spoilers; normally I'm allergic to them wholesale but ambivalence is fought with spoiling myself a little, just to see how X comes to pass. I see how this season ends and .. eh. I dunno. It might be an ask too far even for me.

Mav11

OK, first time posting here. I'm of an age where I watched TOS when it first aired on RTE. Can't count how many times I have watched TNG, never got into DS9 but loved Voyager (I know, shoot me). Was just about to give up on Discovery, jeeez it's very "woked", but the last 2 episodes, which I have just watched, while a bit smarmy at the end, were top class. Is that the end of this series??

PhiloCypher

Mav11 wrote: »

OK, first time posting here. I'm of an age where I watched TOS when it first aired on RTE. Can't count how many times I have watched TNG, never got into DS9 but loved Voyager (I know, shoot me). Was just about to give up on Discovery, jeeez it's very "woked", but the last 2 episodes, which I have just watched, while a bit smarmy at the end, were top class. Is that the end of this series??

No season 4 is already in production in Toronto, its more like a soft reboot. New captain ( for the 3rd season running) , new mission , rebuilding the federation.
As for its wokeness. Trek has been woke since TOS, Discovery flaws are many, its Wokeness is the least of them imo.

Spear

Season 3 was just flat out bad.

There were fundamental mistakes in the pacing of the arc, utterly illogical character decisions, and simply unimaginative storytelling.

The first two episodes needlessly dragged out the scene setting, where one would have done. 4 out of the next 5 then follow the same template of Discovery interfering in an unhappy equilibrium while doing a tour of each individual planet. Then two episodes just to boot out Georgiou.

And during all this, the biggest mystery of the entire galaxy, in the form of the Burn, barely gets lip service.

And it's interspersed with bizarre character decisions, Burnham cheerfully butchering security guards doing their jobs at a completely legal trading post, Nhan abandons her crew and post to mind plants after coming a thousand years into the future, and of course Tilly as first officer.

What small glimpses of something interesting quickly disappear. The mysterious lullaby is hand waved away as somehow being a garbled distress beacon, some overdue screentime for the rest of the crew evaporates.

The two big baddies turn out to be a crying toddler, and Osyraa, who ultimately appears to not really evil, just pragmatic and ruthless in her methods, as opposed to malicious.

There's no big twists, nothing keep viewers guessing.

If I didn't know season 4 was already shooting, I'd almost think it was a series finale, given that everything ended with a neatly tied up bow on it.

BlitzKrieg

season 3 was a rollercoaster that just went meh for me. I was actually hopeful actually moving forward would allow the series to breath more and become more comfortable in its skin and it briefly felt like that this was the case but it quickly seemed to have receeded back to old problems.

I was really worried after the first two episodes because it felt like in the first episode that they'd fallen back to their mistakes in season 1 over focusing the episodes on burnham, but episode 2 which was the non burnham episode looked hopeful (even if it felt like a subpar next generation episode) I actually thought episode 3 hit the right spot juggling multiple plot threads with multiple characters and I was happy and hopeful.

and I was hoping it would stick to that

but honestly it feels like the new setting has been mostly wasted on the episodes that followed and it just never really wanted to do anything but the bare minimum to pass through each plotline.

All the made worst I think because of how short each season is. I think pushing 13 (roughly) episode seasons and insisting on some arc through it all is a core part of the series problem. It ends up overplaying Burnham underplaying the supporting cast, dangling a carrot with little foundation.

Short seasons make sense for a show like The Expanse or Mandalorian where they are doggedly chasing a single plot thread that is carried over series to series. I rather they shifted back to longer seasons for stark trek and accept that out of 20 or so episodes only say 8 of them will deal with the arc and the rest is used for character building. It's a shame because I honestly like a lot of the supporting cast in Discovery, they just get sidelined a lot. I like a lot of the characters they introduce but they never get the chance to build up as a returning cast member.


Though honestly I kinda just want to talk about the new uniforms. The Grey and clasped top with the rank right under the face feels a bit fascie to me but I really like the colour bar running down the chest indicating their post.

fritzelly

First two seasons I enjoyed - they at least had a coherent storyline running thru the season but this season was a total shambles from the Burn (oh how I groaned at the big wimpered at the reveal) to the totally pathetic baddie who we didn't even really get to see anything of like the Borg or the Cardassians etc
Season 3 was just a mish mash of ideas not didn't gel together at all

I could watch the first 2 seasons again some time in the future but I would certainly give this season a miss - like someone else said earlier I can easily watch TNG episodes over and over again, even Voyager episodes

One can only hope now they've got all the crap of arriving outta the way we some more world/Federation building with meeting new races and more a story of the week tho that probably wouldn't work with such limited episodes but...

Cookie_Monster

Just finished the last 3 episode. God its terrible.

I honestly hate every single character apart from Reno who is brilliant.

Banana Republic 1

PhiloCypher wrote: »

No season 4 is already in production in Toronto, its more like a soft reboot. New captain ( for the 3rd season running) , new mission , rebuilding the federation.
As for its wokeness. Trek has been woke since TOS, Discovery flaws are many, its Wokeness is the least of them imo.

TOS was woke, man o man

Banana Republic 1

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just finished the last 3 episode. God its terrible.

I honestly hate every single character apart from Reno who is brilliant.

Is that a sarcastic statement ?

Cookie_Monster

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Is that a sarcastic statement ?

no, its not

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just finished the last 3 episode. God its terrible.

I honestly hate every single character apart from Reno who is brilliant.

Agree, she stands out a mile. She's the only one not infected by the over emotion. That she can act is another outlier. Actually, I'd add booker too. Other than that, meh.

D13exile

Ok, I’m old as in old enough to grow up with Captain Kirk and co and later I had to learn to live with this bald Englishman pretending to be French called Picard. But I grew to prefer him to Kirk as TNG developed into a modern classic. DS9, Voyager and Enterprise had their moments but Discovery? What a load of first class sh1te. Star Trek has been destroyed in a similar manner to what Disney has done to Star Wars. An engaging science fiction roller coaster has been turned into a weepy soap opera with all the “essential” characters for the woke age, ie weepy/tearful characters (aplenty :rolleyes:) gay characters, plucky young teen punching above their weight, overweight lightweight makes first officer despite being a junior rank, a Captain who tolerates gross insubordination from their subordinate on many occasions, killing off what could and should have been great characters (sorry can’t name them as I just can’t get into this show but the android one, Lorca, the Emperor, Pike’s first officer etc). And as for Burnham, she’s the most annoying character ever to wear a Star Fleet uniform. In the “real” Star Trek universe, she’d have been kicked out of Star Fleet a long time ago on pure “breaking into tears at the first sign of stress” alone!

Sorry for the sarcasm but I’ve been a life long Trekkie and Discovery just annoys the fcuk out of me as to what they’ve done to the Star Trek universe.........similar to the travesty of what Disney has done to Star Wars of my youth

breezy1985

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agree, she stands out a mile. She's the only one not infected by the over emotion. That she can act is another outlier. Actually, I'd add booker too. Other than that, meh.

Saru was a great character and actor but by the end he was spewing the same muck as the other over emotional children

Banana Republic 1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agree, she stands out a mile. She's the only one not infected by the over emotion. That she can act is another outlier. Actually, I'd add booker too. Other than that, meh.

The guy who played Booker is in another series called nightflyers a sci-fi which was filmed in Limerick, it’s on Netflix but there only 1 series. Netflix dropped that and pumped money into std, baffling,”.

RandomViewer

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

The guy who played Booker is in another series called nightflyers a sci-fi which was filmed in Limerick, it’s on Netflix but there only 1 series. Netflix dropped that and pumped money into std, baffling,”.

Nightflyers wasnt up to much,

pixelburp

RandomViewer wrote: »

Nightflyers wasnt up to much,

It also wasn't a Netflix production, it was a SyFy show (hence cancellation lol), and yeah. Was a bit rubbish anyway, trading on bring an old George RR Martin story IIRC. The Expanse is the gold standard of TV sci-fi ATM, others? I dunno. I liked Lost in Space as a good "people solve problems" show, while Apple+ has "For All Mankind", which would be my pick for "best show nobody's watching", a show set in NASA in a world where the Russians landed on the moon first

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

The guy who played Booker is in another series called nightflyers a sci-fi which was filmed in Limerick, it’s on Netflix but there only 1 series. Netflix dropped that and pumped money into std, baffling,”.

Filmed in a building I worked in no less. But, never watched it. The reviews were poor and when cancelled I never bothered.

breezy1985

RandomViewer wrote: »

Nightflyers wasnt up to much,

Can't have been worse than Another Life. I watched about half the season because I was so curious to see how much more ridiculous it could get

RandomViewer

breezy1985 wrote: »

Can't have been worse than Another Life. I watched about half the season because I was so curious to see how much more ridiculous it could get

10minutes episode 1, not my thing, "Raised by Wolves" is another steaming turd,
Why cant they just make big loud action shows with no other meaning, this current every niche must get airtime will not age well

pixelburp

breezy1985 wrote: »

Can't have been worse than Another Life. I watched about half the season because I was so curious to see how much more ridiculous it could get

Brave man. Rare for me I don't give a show a few episodes to find its feet but Another Life's first episode was just so appalling I couldn't go on. One of those instances where yeah, I reckon I COULD have written something better myself.

breezy1985

pixelburp wrote: »

Brave man. Rare for me I don't give a show a few episodes to find its feet but Another Life's first episode was just so appalling I couldn't go on. One of those instances where yeah, I reckon I COULD have written something better myself.

5 mins in it gets stupid but seeing as it was on Netflix I was too curious not to see how bad it could get.

Some lad as a review of everything wrong with it on twitter and I think its like an hour long