Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2019/20

kerplun k

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If we lose to Sheffield Utd how will you feel?

If we lose, and spurs win, there’s a 1 point deficit between us.

My case isn’t for keeping Ole, it’s against replacing him with Pock at this point in time.

kerplun k

kerplun k wrote: »

If we lose, and spurs win, there’s a 1 point deficit between us.

My case isn’t for keeping Ole, it’s against replacing him with Pock at this point in time.

Sorry, to explain the question was genuine. Thanks for the response and point taken.
My reference was to our form over a 12 month period.
We need to cut ties now. Not sit and dwell on this.

Cantona's Collars

Tuanzebe and Shaw back training with the first team today.

kerplun k

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sorry, to explain the question was genuine. Thanks for the response and point taken.
My reference was to our form over a 12 month period.
We need to cut ties now. Not sit and dwell on this.

Of course. And I do agree with you to some extent.

Look, It’s hard to argue a case for keeping Ole on.

Our performances over the last 12 months has been awful. I wouldn’t be too upset if he was sacked. But, there’s other factors at stake.

At this current time, the conditions at our club for any manager are not ideal, and bringing in Poch now off the back of a disastrous end to his time at spurs is a huge gamble.

Oles last few results has just tipped the scales in favour of me wanting to keep things as they are (for now) until something big changes.

There’s no point in causing all the upheaval that comes with changing managers, just to bring in a guy who is short on confidence and isn’t going to flourish under our conditions.

I know, it sounds mad because Poch is clearly a much, much better manager than Ole, but for me, the conditions just aren’t right.

sky88

kerplun k wrote: »

Of course. And I do agree with you to some extent.

Look, It’s hard to argue a case for keeping Ole on.

Our performances over the last 12 months has been awful. I wouldn’t be too upset if he was sacked. But, there’s other factors at stake.

At this current time, the conditions at our club for any manager are not ideal, and bringing in Poch now off the back of a disastrous end to his time at spurs is a huge gamble.

Oles last few results has just tipped the scales in favour of me wanting to keep things as they are (for now) until something big changes.

There’s no point in causing all the upheaval that comes with changing managers, just to bring in a guy who is short on confidence and isn’t going to flourish under our conditions.

I know, it sounds mad because Poch is clearly a much, much better manager than Ole, but for me, the conditions just aren’t right.

i see were you coming from but isnt also the case if we wait and end up sacking ole end of the season or early next year we damage our potential top class replacements poch, allegri etc with other top clubs with champions league opportunity to take on

Father Hernandez

How much do we think Spurs will pay for Matic in January?

sky88

Father Hernandez wrote: »

How much do we think Spurs will pay for Matic in January?

honestly i wouldnt be surprised if he bid for mctominary

Drumpot

Father Hernandez wrote: »

How much do we think Spurs will pay for Matic in January?

Well with Woodward negotiating with Levy, my guess is we end up paying at least half his wages and probably end up giving them more then we get from them. .

kerplun k

kerplun k wrote: »

Of course. And I do agree with you to some extent.

Look, It’s hard to argue a case for keeping Ole on.

Our performances over the last 12 months has been awful. I wouldn’t be too upset if he was sacked. But, there’s other factors at stake.

At this current time, the conditions at our club for any manager are not ideal, and bringing in Poch now off the back of a disastrous end to his time at spurs is a huge gamble.

Oles last few results has just tipped the scales in favour of me wanting to keep things as they are (for now) until something big changes.

There’s no point in causing all the upheaval that comes with changing managers, just to bring in a guy who is short on confidence and isn’t going to flourish under our conditions.

I know, it sounds mad because Poch is clearly a much, much better manager than Ole, but for me, the conditions just aren’t right.

The point is well made, but some of us like myself believe that waiting to see what happens with Ole is only a recipe for further disaster down the line.

The availability of Poch is the primary issue.
Either Utd cut ties now or miss out on him. Which is exactly what will happen.
This is fundimentaly more evidence of how badly the club is being run.

beno619

secman wrote: »

To my 3 mates..Spurs fans who dished out plentiful of slagging to me during that awful Mourinho reign..... good morning boys.

Our most successful period post Fergie ? Not sure why you seem so happy about it

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

The point is well made, but some of us like myself believe that waiting to see what happens with Ole is only a recipe for further disaster down the line.

The availability of Poch is the primary issue.
Either Utd cut ties now or miss out on him. Which is exactly what will happen.
This is fundimentaly more evidence of how badly the club is being run.

It would be evidence of rubbish no matter what.

Imagine Ole got sacked tonight and Poch appointed tomorrow.

The reason for sacking Ole would only be that Poch was available. It could be the right call, but it also shows that United had no faith in Ole but were sticking with him cause there wasn't an easy choice available. That is a poor way to run a club too!

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

Ole took over a squad that was supposedly much better then the 2nd spot Jose achieved. How is it on to bash Jose for not doing better and to give Ole a pass for not only not doing better but to have the team languishing near mid table with no real prospects of anything good anytime soon? Are you really going to suggest that Poch was given much support in transfer window the last 2 years? Ole got more support in one window then Poch the last few seasons!!!

You know any manager can use “rebuild” as an excuse , hell even Moyes didn’t get any chance to rebuild and he’s more experience then Ole. That’s the major issue fans have with Ole, he’s a Hail Mary punt with no managerial pedigree at this level. I can’t argue with people who are trying to make out somehow that Poch is no more qualified because that’s just a stupid statement to make and you can’t reason with stupid.

Ole gutted the squad, something not done at this extent and so quickly before, and is attempting a rebuild very quickly. He is still very early in his tenure without a full season under his belt yet. Suggesting the term rebuild is just an excuse in this case is unfair, its quite clearly the case.

As Mitch pointed out lots of people are prepared to give managers different amounts of time on the job. I advocated more time for both Moyes and LVG because I'm not a fan of revolving door managers and we are in danger of becoming like Chelsea in that respect, a manager every two seasons.

Jose had much more time and money spent than Ole and left us in a bad position in the table for being afforded that much time and cash. The cleanout was immensely quick with still more to do under Ole and yes the squad is depleted and we are short in areas like a backup striker and some have leveled lots of criticism at Ole for this.

That criticism is correct if you expected us to be competitive this season, I said in the summer after the window that I expect this season for us to be non competitive, as a clear out and rebuild doesn't happen in one window. We got defense almost sorted, now we need MF and the forward line and we clearly weakened in area before we can re-strengthen.

Poch maybe the more experienced coach and if circumstances were different I would prefer him to take over pre Ole but now that Ole is in the middle of his rebuild and more reliance on youth, sacking him and bringing some else in with a different vision sets us back to square one.

Your Airbag

It will be very interesting to see how Jose gets along with Levy. Levy is notorious for being heavily involved in transfers.

It will also be interesting to see how the players take Jose and how he deals with them. I'd imagine he wont get along with everyone and the like of Kane and Son could be available come the summer.

Interesting times ahead.

Cotts72

Talks that Zlatam and Bruno Fernández lined up as his first signings

Drumpot

Your Airbag wrote: »

Ole gutted the squad, something not done at this extent and so quickly before, and is attempting a rebuild very quickly. He is still very early in his tenure without a full season under his belt yet. Suggesting the term rebuild is just an excuse in this case is unfair, its quite clearly the case.

As Mitch pointed out lots of people are prepared to give managers different amounts of time on the job. I advocated more time for both Moyes and LVG because I'm not a fan of revolving door managers and we are in danger of becoming like Chelsea in that respect, a manager every two seasons.

Jose had much more time and money spent than Ole and left us in a bad position in the table for being afforded that much time and cash. The cleanout was immensely quick with still more to do under Ole and yes the squad is depleted and we are short in areas like a backup striker and some have leveled lots of criticism at Ole for this.

That criticism is correct if you expected us to be competitive this season, I said in the summer after the window that I expect this season for us to be non competitive, as a clear out and rebuild doesn't happen in one window. We got defense almost sorted, now we need MF and the forward line and we clearly weakened in area before we can re-strengthen.

Poch maybe the more experienced coach and if circumstances were different I would prefer him to take over pre Ole but now that Ole is in the middle of his rebuild and more reliance on youth, sacking him and bringing some else in with a different vision sets us back to square one.

I advocated more time for LVG and Moyes aswell because they had a managerial pedigree we could fall back on and I couldnt of imagined how bad Woodward would be at running the club. But I dont know how anybody can make any confident claims that Ole deserves time. He was chosen as an emergency appointment (not long term) to "make players happy" and all of a sudden over a few months he impressed Woodward (a clueless accountant) that he has the credentials to lead the club going forward ?

Your revolving door point only makes sense when we can point to qualities of the manager at the helm that suggests they deserve to retain the job at hand or the person who put the manager in charge has form at making good calls in such an important footballing department. We cant fallback on either of these things.

Jose got us to second when the board backed him. The board has forced this rebuild by their actions, not Joses. You dont seem to get it , you have bought into this "Jose was the problem" narrative and keep doubling down , ignoring anything to the contrary. This is the 2nd rebuild United needed in less then a decade, why is that ? Why are we the only club that always needs these fuppin rebuilds? Dont you get it ? The club is being run extremely badly and Jose was more a victim and scapegoat , then the actual cause of our issues.

United has struggled with players and managers long before Jose came. You cant blame him for this rebuild.

Your only defence of Ole is that he is in the middle of a rebuild that nobody thinks he was qualified to do in the first place . . You cant actually give any other reason why he should be retained other then "we cant keep sacking managers", its just crazy logic.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/MarkOgden_/status/1197162482428710912

"United target Dzeko"

Mark Ogden.

sky88

Your Airbag wrote: »

Ole gutted the squad, something not done at this extent and so quickly before, and is attempting a rebuild very quickly. He is still very early in his tenure without a full season under his belt yet. Suggesting the term rebuild is just an excuse in this case is unfair, its quite clearly the case.

As Mitch pointed out lots of people are prepared to give managers different amounts of time on the job. I advocated more time for both Moyes and LVG because I'm not a fan of revolving door managers and we are in danger of becoming like Chelsea in that respect, a manager every two seasons.

Jose had much more time and money spent than Ole and left us in a bad position in the table for being afforded that much time and cash. The cleanout was immensely quick with still more to do under Ole and yes the squad is depleted and we are short in areas like a backup striker and some have leveled lots of criticism at Ole for this.

That criticism is correct if you expected us to be competitive this season, I said in the summer after the window that I expect this season for us to be non competitive, as a clear out and rebuild doesn't happen in one window. We got defense almost sorted, now we need MF and the forward line and we clearly weakened in area before we can re-strengthen.

Poch maybe the more experienced coach and if circumstances were different I would prefer him to take over pre Ole but now that Ole is in the middle of his rebuild and more reliance on youth, sacking him and bringing some else in with a different vision sets us back to square one.

didnt LVG cut more than ole did i could be wrong but felt like a similar cull

MeMen2_MoRi_

Who did Ole gut from the squad?
From the ones that left/on loan I'd say Sanchez is the only one.. smalling left with too few game opportunities/ROM was asked to stay/Herrera got sent packing by ed/Valencia his departure started under Jose

Seems so long ago! 27/05/16

Father Hernandez

Cotts72 wrote: »

Talks that Zlatam and Bruno Fernández lined up as his first signings

Id absolutely hate to see Bruno Fernandes go to Spurs and tear it up.

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

Jose got us to second when the board backed him. The board has forced this rebuild by their actions, not Joses. You dont seem to get it , you have bought into this "Jose was the problem" narrative and keep doubling down , ignoring anything to the contrary. This is the 2nd rebuild United needed in less then a decade, why is that ? Why are we the only club that always needs these fuppin rebuilds? Dont you get it ? The club is being run extremely badly and Jose was more a victim and scapegoat , then the actual cause of our issues.

United has struggled with players and managers long before Jose came. You cant blame him for this rebuild.

Your only defence of Ole is that he is in the middle of a rebuild that nobody thinks he was qualified to do in the first place . . You cant actually give any other reason why he should be retained other then "we cant keep sacking managers", its just crazy logic.

Thats funny because your nigh impossible to talk to on the subject. You just keep defaulting to either your with Jose or not and then claim others "just dont get it" and that THEY "double down".

Yes Jose and his attitude were a big problem, you'd have to be delusional to say otherwise, he has a proven history of it. Yes the club also has squad and behind the scenes problems, I've never denied it but, you just keep ignoring it downright lying about me thinking Jose was the only problem but Jose a scapegoat? Nobody asked him to act like he did on camera, to the press and players. He purposely isolated himself instead of doing the best job he could which is unacceptable. He showed no professionalism and acted like a brat tbh.

Your constant mentioning of the 2nd place is pointless, it was something like 16 points off City and teams faltered in the run in to give us 2nd, the idea that this was Jose's crowning achievement is laughable and highlights how badly he did.

In his last season, with Lukaku, Fellaini etc and all the players still in the team that people criticize Ole for off loading Jose had us playing some miserable ineffective football and getting beaten by very average teams. Ole by his own choice has less to work with but I'm sure the irony of you who wanted Jose to stay with all those players at his disposal had us limping to 6th and worse are calling for Oles head but Jose with more to work with should have been kept. Its a complete contradiction.

I never "blamed this rebuild on Jose". Your actually counter arguing points in your own head and nothing I've said. Ole has gone for a drastic squad gutting and rebuild and has made us weaker in the short term, thats what I said, between this and your claim I only though Jose was the problem well you just leave those goalposts alone now please.

You can ignore Jose's last season all you want and keep mentioning the second place finish but Jose did enough terrible football and toxic behavior to earn a sacking in his last season, nobody called for his head before that and if you think Maguire in that summer would have transformed the team and Joses vision would have finally been realized and we would have gone onto to improve on 2nd and compete your nuts. Maguire would have just been another player in Joses terrible system.

Wonder if Jose is interested in any United players? Ducks for cover!

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

This is the 2nd rebuild United needed in less then a decade, why is that ? Why are we the only club that always needs these fuppin rebuilds? Dont you get it ? The club is being run extremely badly and Jose was more a victim and scapegoat , then the actual cause of our issues.

I think it's obvious to everyone the club has done some really poor business in terms of transfer selection and player expenditure for much of the last 5 years.

JM is not responsible for all this. But no way does he get away as lightly as some are suggesting either.....

All indications are he greenlit signings like Lukaku, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, Pogba, Matic, Bailly.

And to varying degrees these guys have just not performed to the level expected. Some were just, to put it quite bluntly, a flop.

Your Airbag

sky88 wrote: »

didnt LVG cut more than ole did i could be wrong but felt like a similar cull

LVG had more in terms of volume, I'd say your right there but a lot of them were players coming to the end of their top flight careers. Giggs, Vidic, Rio for example were all released, some deemed not good enough were realeased like Cleverly and Macheda. Evra and RVP were sold and probably done at the top level . A lot of that could and should have happened under Fergie and Moyes. It was a case that we really couldn't go on with some of them anymore, like Fletcher who was medically done.

Then some clearly sub par like Buttner, Bebe and DiMaria who wanted out were sold. He frequently played ADM out of position which probably led to him wanting out.

LVG made his own call on Nani, Rafael, Evans and Wellbeck but all of this was over about four windows, Ole has had one. The situations are a bit different.

brinty

Your Airbag wrote:

LVG made his own call on Nani, Rafael, Evans and Wellbeck but all of this was over about four windows, Ole has had one. The situations are a bit different.

Ole had last winter and the summer,

Drumpot

Your Airbag wrote: »

Thats funny because your nigh impossible to talk to on the subject. You just keep defaulting to either your with Jose or not and then claim others "just dont get it" and that THEY "double down".

Yes Jose and his attitude were a big problem, you'd have to be delusional to say otherwise, he has a proven history of it. Yes the club also has squad and behind the scenes problems, I've never denied it but, you just keep ignoring it downright lying about me thinking Jose was the only problem but Jose a scapegoat? Nobody asked him to act like he did on camera, to the press and players. He purposely isolated himself instead of doing the best job he could which is unacceptable. He showed no professionalism and acted like a brat tbh.

Your constant mentioning of the 2nd place is pointless, it was something like 16 points off City and teams faltered in the run in to give us 2nd, the idea that this was Jose's crowning achievement is laughable and highlights how badly he did.

In his last season, with Lukaku, Fellaini etc and all the players still in the team that people criticize Ole for off loading Jose had us playing some miserable ineffective football and getting beaten by very average teams. Ole by his own choice has less to work with but I'm sure the irony of you who wanted Jose to stay with all those players at his disposal had us limping to 6th and worse are calling for Oles head but Jose with more to work with should have been kept. Its a complete contradiction.

I never "blamed this rebuild on Jose". Your actually counter arguing points in your own head and nothing I've said. Ole has gone for a drastic squad gutting and rebuild and has made us weaker in the short term, thats what I said, between this and your claim I only though Jose was the problem well you just leave those goalposts alone now please.

You can ignore Jose's last season all you want and keep mentioning the second place finish but Jose did enough terrible football and toxic behavior to earn a sacking in his last season, nobody called for his head before that and if you think Maguire in that summer would have transformed the team and Joses vision would have finally been realized and we would have gone onto to improve on 2nd and compete your nuts. Maguire would have just been another player in Joses terrible system.

I had actually started to respond, but hated myself for even beginning to troll through that fantasy. For somebody who regularly accuses people of engaging in arguments that contradict themselves, misinterpreting points and ignoring points made you regularly do a great job of not practicing what you preach . .

Mitch Connor

brinty wrote: »

Ole had last winter and the summer,

In fairness Ole wasn't made perminent manager til Feb or March so you can't really say he had the January window. He could advise but wouldn't have been able to make the same demands a manager would (that fall on deaf ears anyway)

Whatsisname

Didn’t Ed say Jose didn’t want a DOF? Good ol Ed.

[url]

https://twitter.com/skysportsnews/status/1197245883278077952?s=21[/url]

Rayne Wooney

Ole “gutting” the squad was another diversion tactic

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

It will be very interesting to see how Jose gets along with Levy. Levy is notorious for being heavily involved in transfers.

It will also be interesting to see how the players take Jose and how he deals with them. I'd imagine he wont get along with everyone and the like of Kane and Son could be available come the summer.

Interesting times ahead.

I do find in funny that the likes of Carragher ect think that Levy and Jose haven't discussed how their relationship will work, organisation structures, director of football ect before agreeing to get into bed with each other.

It's such a laughable suggestion, promises might be broken in the future but im sure they have both accepted and are happy with how the club will operate.

Jose is only the 'Head Coach' after all.

I dont see Kane ever leaving Spurs and it would take massive money to get either him or Son but yeah bad man Jose will push them out.

Cotts72

Whatsisname wrote: »

Didn’t Ed say Jose didn’t want a DOF? Good ol Ed.

[url]

https://twitter.com/skysportsnews/status/1197245883278077952?s=21[/url]

I think he actually recommended him to utd when he was in charge

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

I had actually started to respond, but hated myself for even beginning to troll through that fantasy. For somebody who regularly accuses people of engaging in arguments that contradict themselves, misinterpreting points and ignoring points made you regularly do a great job of not practicing what you preach . .

So you don't address any of the points I raised in my post, call them fantasy, double down with the insults. Then bang on practicing and preaching. Cool story.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

I do find in funny that the likes of Carragher ect think that Levy and Jose haven't discussed how their relationship will work, organisation structures, director of football ect before agreeing to get into bed with each other.

It's such a laughable suggestion, promises might be broken in the future but im sure they have both accepted and are happy with how the club will operate.

Jose is only the 'Head Coach' after all.

I dont see Kane ever leaving Spurs and it would take massive money to get either him or Son but yeah bad man Jose will push them out.

I'm sure Jose doesn't go into any job without lengthy discussions with the higher ups but like you said many things may not come to pass. I'm sure Jose's behavior in the later seasons of many of his clubs was never discussed in those early meetings.


It will be interesting to see how Joes does at Spurs, will he temper his behavior in any and his relationship with Levy.

IamtheWalrus

Step down for Jose?

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/VinceVega7/status/1197184963407470597

Backstreet Moyes

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Ole “gutting” the squad was another diversion tactic

Lukaku and Fellaini were two of our best performing players and important in recent cup wins especially Fellaini with important goals

Smalling and Sanchez are on loan and coming back

Valencia and Herrera left on a free

Am I missing anybody else

So basically Lukaku, Fellaini and Herrera who were all important squad players

Sanchez and Smalling will be coming back and Valencia never played

In what universe is this supposed gutting of the squad a good thing

Backstreet Moyes

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Step down for Jose?

Spurs are a big step up from United at this time and they are a great match

All the talk is the players no longer respected Poch once they peaked and who better to go in and get the respect from the players

He will play good football with the attacking players they have and make them more solid with a good transfer window or two they could do very well

Liam O

Nuts102 wrote: »

Lukaku and Fellaini were two of our best performing players and important in recent cup wins especially Fellaini with important goals

Smalling and Sanchez are on loan and coming back

Valencia and Herrera left on a free

Am I missing anybody else

So basically Lukaku, Fellaini and Herrera who were all important squad players

Sanchez and Smalling will be coming back and Valencia never played

In what universe is this supposed gutting of the squad a good thing

https://talksport.com/football/438510/why-is-manchester-united-striker-romelu-lukaku-not-scoring-this-season/

I struggle to think what would happen if Rashford went on a run like outlined in that article. There were individual games that you could see he wasn't up to it with regards movement, touch and having all of the factors needed for a top team.

Of course United probably don't qualify as a top team anymore but the problem was not replacing him, not that he was allowed go. No problem with Martial and Rashford starting this season but when one gets injured and you are down to Greenwood or another youth player there's a problem.

Fellaini should have obviously been kept around but Herrera would have cost a lot of money to keep around and had never really proved himself under both managers he played for. Again, the issue is not bringing in someone to replace him.

bucketybuck

Liam O wrote: »

I struggle to think what would happen if Rashford went on a run like outlined in that article.

Why? Rashford was ****ing atrocious from February right up until the last few games so I find it pretty easy to imagine what would have happened.

He would have been kept in the team, thats what.

Is it selective memory or just plain bad memory?

The Rashford as lead striker experiment has failed miserably and only a few weeks ago he has been consistently awful since February.

Ironically Rashford has now picked up a bit of form in the same position he was most successful in his entire Utd careeer, on the left under Jose.
He will stay there until Martial inevitably gets injured.

It happens so often here. Use an excuse to hammer someone (Jose, Lukaku ect) and then when the same thing replicates itself( Ole, Rashford) completely ignore it.

Liam O

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it selective memory or just plain bad memory?

The Rashford as lead striker experiment has failed miserably and only a few weeks ago he has been consistently awful since February.

Ironically Rashford has now picked up a bit of form in the same position he was most successful in his entire Utd careeer, on the left under Jose.
He will stay there until Martial inevitably gets injured.

It happens so often here. Use an excuse to hammer someone (Jose, Lukaku ect) and then when the same thing replicates itself( Ole, Rashford) completely ignore it.

The same way certain people will have said that Lukaku wasn't scoring because he wasn't getting the service but completely ignore that Rashford was getting much worse service during that period than Lukaku ever got. Why people think Rashford is going to be the main striker when he's 2nd choice at a time United are looking for a new striker too is grating. He's clearly going to be a wide forward for United and England unless he has to cover. I think he's doing well in that regard.

I'm glad Lukaku is gone and the transfer was basically a wash. He had a couple of good runs but bar the month or so around the Sevilla game and maybe the PSG away game I always felt he wasn't really up to it and mainly self preserving. I said I'd take a 10th place finish this season if it meant getting the team back on the right track. I think it is on the way but obviously dependent on the right attacking signings.

Mitch Connor

THe links to Dzeko are interesting. As a short term option I would take him over Manzukic anyway. Though his scoring record in S.A last season was poor. He'd potentially be a good short term alternative option, if that is what we could be looking at in Jan rather than getting a higher priority long term target in Jan like Haaland, and looking to get them in Summer window

Drumpot

This will be too long for most to be bothered reading, that's fair enough . .

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm sure Jose doesn't go into any job without lengthy discussions with the higher ups but like you said many things may not come to pass. I'm sure Jose's behavior in the later seasons of many of his clubs was never discussed in those early meetings.

So do you think Jose equally doesn't sign any contract extensions without lengthy discussions aswell ? So what exactly did he discuss with Woodward in the January he signed an extension with United? Do you think his targets for the summer and what the team needed to push on were one of the things they discussed when he was committing his own future to the club ?

You see Ive answered everything you have said in the past that you either ignore or just dont bother responding to. Im fed up going round in circles and reading what I think is quite an over simplistic appraisal of Jose that revolves around the "bad man Jose" mantra.

What is Bad Man Jose ?
I cant speak for others but when I see that posted I think its a response to people who, no matter what facts or information is provided, the response is always "yeh but Jose is toxic" (or something to that effect). It doesn't address anything other then that he can fall out badly with clubs. Its like this one trait of Jose trumps everything else and it destroys any possibility of objective discussion.

So who has he fallen out with ?

Chelsea, Madrid and United . . Are these clubs renowned for how they treat managers or how they part ways with managers on good terms ? No, they most certainly are not . . So why is Jose singled out ? Probably because he doesn't make it easy for these clubs to offload him discreetly. . It seems to be the case that when something is common in football (cynical fouling, diving, sacking managers etc) its sort of brushed aside as an accepted norm.

Does Jose leave clubs in turmoil ?

Madrid won 5 european Cups after he left, Chelsea won the league and champions league with squads he built even after he left but United supposedly need a complete rebuild. Its funny how when you look at United, they always stick out at bucking the trend in the negative.

If you really want to honestly look at Jose's tenure at United you will look at the comparison to how he left other clubs, what happened there and what has happened at United. You can also look at his career and see that United are a stain on his resume, United have been a stain on every player and manager who has joined since 2013

2nd Spot

You discount 2nd spot because it suits your argument, not because its an objective appraisal of his tenure. Only City finished above United and only one club has been able to match City in that period. Was that not a record breaking points tally by City ? But like, how can finishing 2nd any season be discounted ? I really cant understand how anybody could think that finishing second in the league is irrelevant leading up to the summer when a manager is not supported.

The league was over in January and yet Woodward was happy to extend Jose's contract, why ? This doesnt add up to scrutiny when you consider your "crap football" narrative. The club would not of extended his contract if football brand was an issue.

We finished second spot, Liverpool finished behind us and they broke world records for a defender and goalkeeper. We are told we are a club where money is no object and yet United didnt make the required signings last seasons to improve the squad. They signed Fred, who Jose himself said needed to be signed with a quality Centre half. This is a position that needed to be addressed and yet it was only done this season.

You see, I find your "bad man Jose" default setting lazy, poorly thought out and an apologetic stance to take with regards to Woodward. You can convince yourself its not, but it is a defence of sorts because it suggests there was nothing Woodward could of done to prevent a Jose Meltdown. I think Woodward/Glazers are 100% responsible for last season and the demise of Jose because they knew exactly what they were getting with him and the conditions of having him as manager. By not supporting him last summer after agreeing to whatever he asked when signing a contract extension, they wrote off our season and forced this bullsh*t rebuild that didnt have to happen.

What I believe happened was that Woodward was very happy with what Jose was doing (including the "crap football" you complain about) and the direction the club was going, they agreed on an extension to his contract and something happened between Feb and June that made Woodward balk. The only public thing i can think of is Jose's public fallout with Pogba. Ironic how many people who dont like Jose were quick to jump to Pogbas defence for being equally public when airing his dirty laundry. In many regards, you had two big egos demanding respect. That is why many of us thought Pogba was probably a significant factor in Jose getting the sack. Asides from the fact Jose has alluded to it and Pogba made his grievances public from day 1 of last season, there is no other logical reason why Woodward didnt support him last summer (when you cant work out why he gave him a contract extension and then changed his mind in the summer).

When Jose fell out at Chelsea, Hazzard was quoted years later as saying that he felt the problem was that the players standards dropped at the manager couldnt accept it. He also lamented that they didnt listen to Jose and that he would like to work with him again. In effect, Jose is a winner and accepts no substitute or second best bullsh*t from players or clubs. Every fan knew we needed alot of strengthening last summer to continue the upward trend, yet some wanted Jose to accept what fans themselves knew to be bullsh*t. We needed strenghening and yet some fans used it as an opportunity to ignore that issue and convince themselves that Woodward (the man who had extended Jose's contract less then a few months previous) was making the right call. .

This was known before Woodward hired him, Joses brand of football was known before he was hired, Jose’s work with youth was known, Joses public fallouts were known before he was hired and Joses demands were agreed before he was hired and his contract was extended. As soon as Woodward broke agreements last summer all bets were off. Some people were willing to accept last summer, not because we didnt need stronger players, but purely because they didnt like Jose and presumed any signings made would somehow prop him up.

Last summer , Woodward ruined our season by effectively not having the balls to sack Jose but choosing not to back him. Woodward ruined last season, not Jose. Jose's heart was not in it last season , which was confirmed by United fan entourage who usually follow the club on tour and confirmed that immediatley last summer Jose's demeanor and attitude had changed. So as far as I can see/tell, Jose didnt want to be at the club the whole season and this was reflected in our performances and results that were like chalk and cheese from last season to the season before.

So yes, the way we ended up playing last season, getting Maguire might not of made much of a difference, but had Jose gotten what he wanted (which I presume was discussed and agreed only a few months before when he agreed his contract extension), then I believe his heart would of been in it and we wouldnt of seen such a poor dislplay last season . I genuinley think he would of continued the progress that happened. 2nd spot is progress. Concurrent qualificaion for champions league is progress relative to what we had gotten used to. I think players knew last season that he didn’t want to be there and we know what happens to every manager when they lose the dressingroom.

I dont believe you have the capacity to discuss Jose's tenure at United in a remotely informative manner because you are too entrenched in "the bad man" narrative that doesnt tell the majority of the story. We dont learn anything by blaming him and in many regards his time at the club was yet again further evidence how badly is being run. He has given us a great insight into the poor decision making of the club and how a clueless accountant has massive influence over decisions he is not qualified to make. One consistency in 7 poor seasons has been woodward who is the most influential person in a footballing capacity in that time.

And you do regularly accuse other people of doing what you do all the time. I lose my head and sometimes just give up conversing. Anybody who knows me, whether they like me or not, knows that my issue is not that I lack the capacity to respond. What I will concede is that I can go headstrong into a argument and sometimes miss things that are fair and sometimes misinterpret points or posters. But generally speaking I clarify exactly why I feel a certain way. Usually this is met with the phrase "mental gymnastics" or by just quoting one line, of an extensive post, and ignoring everything else.

We have had all these discussions before and discussed all these points. I considered whether or not to respond, but your "wont even respond/converse" bullsh*t encouraged me to point it out that the reason was simply because you are incapable of digesting any information that you just dont want to acknowledge. I do accept Jose had a meltdown last season and that he ultimately had to go, but I dont accept it had to happen and feel that the issue, as all our issues have been since Woodward took over, started from the top and we still have to suffer that same issue. Another rebuild, another f**king rebuild .. . FFS, Woodward is some cowboy that anybody still thinks he deserves to be humoured.

grumpymunster

Nuts102 wrote: »

Spurs are a big step up from United at this time and they are a great match

All the talk is the players no longer respected Poch once they peaked and who better to go in and get the respect from the players

He will play good football with the attacking players they have and make them more solid with a good transfer window or two they could do very well

As a neutral I would have to say, even with their current difficulities, United are orders of magnitude bigger than Spurs. Liverpool are the only English team that even comes close. It might take a few years but United will be back (similar to Liverpools more barren years you always knew they would be back we just enjoyed the ride in the meanwhile), Spurs were never there in the first place.

There is no way for this to be dressed up as anything but a step down for Mourinho. To go from one of the biggest clubs in the world to at best 2nd and possibly 3rd biggest club in London is a huge fall.

S.M.B.

In the past it may have looked like a step down, and probably a step that Jose would not be willing to make.

But the reality is that Spurs are on an upward trajectory and if Jose is happy to work within the financial constraints that the new stadium has imposed on the club then he's found a very good home for himself.

Jose moving from a United in turmoil to a somewhat stable Spurs possibly tells us more about the state of the two clubs then it does about Jose's ego.

Backstreet Moyes

grumpymunster wrote: »

As a neutral I would have to say, even with their current difficulities, United are orders of magnitude bigger than Spurs. Liverpool are the only English team that even comes close. It might take a few years but United will be back (similar to Liverpools more barren years you always knew they would be back we just enjoyed the ride in the meanwhile), Spurs were never there in the first place.

There is no way for this to be dressed up as anything but a step down for Mourinho. To go from one of the biggest clubs in the world to at best 2nd and possibly 3rd biggest club in London is a huge fall.

Spurs have a better team than United

Spurs have Levy and Mourinho while United have an accountant and a novice

Spurs have built the new stadium and are rich also

Spurs have London and Mourinho to attract players

United have Manchester and Ole to attract players

United have spent nearly a billion and have a mid table side and the person who stood over this is still involved

It's far more likely Spurs will pull further clear than United overtaking them in the next few years

At this point in time Spurs are in a much better position than United so for Mourinho it is a step up

Hotblack Desiato

Laughable to see United fans going onto the Jose thread bigging him up. Delusional. As if the exact same things which he did with us (which Chelsea fans warned us about at the time) aren't going to happen all over again - except probably quicker this time. Unless Levy sells up, I can't see Jose even making it into his notorious "third season syndrome". But they'll probably win a league cup along the way which might be enough to win over Spurs fans. The guy's career was in a decline before he joined us and this is definitely a step down the order for him.

YES we all know United had and have massive off-field problems, but so does Spurs. I give him a year before the rot sets in.

Your Airbag

Drumpot wrote: »

So who has he fallen out with ?

Chelsea, Madrid and United . . Are these clubs renowned for how they treat managers or how they part ways with managers on good terms ? No, they most certainly are not . . So why is Jose singled out ? Probably because he doesn't make it easy for these clubs to offload him discreetly. . It seems to be the case that when something is common in football (cynical fouling, diving, sacking managers etc) its sort of brushed aside as an accepted norm.

Does Jose leave clubs in turmoil ?

Madrid won 5 european Cups after he left
2nd Spot

You discount 2nd spot because it suits your argument, not because its an objective appraisal of his tenure. Only City finished above United and only one club has been able to match City in that period. Was that not a record breaking points tally by City ? But like, how can finishing 2nd any season be discounted ? I really cant understand how anybody could think that finishing second in the league is irrelevant leading up to the summer when a manager is not supported.
.

I wont quote the whole thing as it will only annoy others but its an overly long cherry picked load of nonesense that amounts to nothing but making excuses for your sacked hero.

I will address the two most delusional parts though.

The fact that you somehow credit Jose for Madrid having won 5 European trophies AFTER he left is at best laughable, and at worst, well I wont say. Ancelotti comes in straight after Jose's departure, sells Ozil and signs Bale, changes the formation to 4-3-3 and deviates immediately from Jose's system, ADM in particular excels in this system and they win the UCL (something Jose could not muster with all his tie and money) and Copa del Ray in his first season. Kroos is signed the next summer and after Ancelotti departs and a brief stint from Rafa Zidane goes on to win the UCL three times in a row signing no one of real note along the way.

It was a departure from Joses methods that gave Madrid such success, all of this happening immediately after he left is enough of an indication to any rational person that he was underachieving there but you just spin it 180.

Crediting Jose is someway for what he failed to do because other managers did it after he left is garbage. Madrid have always been a buy big now club and dont have much time for rebuilds, Jose bought big and failed to win the UCL. There aren't many more things as self dis-crediting you could have said then this which essentially amounts to "even his failings are a success, if someone wins something after he leaves". Excuse making at is worst.

As for managers not parting teams on good terms its a modern part of the game, PR defenses from both club and manager but again you draw a simplistic comparison as an excuse. Jose doesn't depart like other managers. now does he? This is the man that bullied a female doctor out of a club, stuck his finger in an assistant managers eye and regularly slates his own players in front of the camera.

Your continuous ignoring of this aspect of the guy, not only ignoring but painting his failures as paving the way for the next managers success shows how blinkered and beyond reason you are about the man. I'll decline from engaging with you about him again as that was a self-discrediting pile of waffle.

RobbingBandit

Spurs match is on Amazon prime