Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

The backrow looked better with Stander/Conan in is just another way of saying our backrow looked much better with POM not playing. Stander doesn't change his game between 6 and 8 imo.

He's not. But he's a better 6 than 8. Always felt he was shoehorned in there because of need rather than any particular facility he had in the position. POM shouldn't be anywhere near the Ireland setup this year imo. Far better options available now.

aloooof

I think CJ's defensive tackling often gets overlooked as well. He regularly, holds up or stops guys behind the gainline. He's also good for the odd poach too.

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

This. Harks back to the days of static ball to POC where was knocked down on or before the gain line and we went nowhere.
I think we've become a bit too predictable recently and this crack of a pop pass to a one up runner (normally static) isn't going to help our cause anytime soon.

That's exactly why we need to keep doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox6MScSWp28

Jump_In_Jack

Just for the Irish back row,

My preference at the moment would be:
6. Ruddock or Stander, 7. Van der Flier, 8. Doris or Deegan.

I think we need to cut loose a few seasoned players, such as Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony and possibly Jordi Murphy also.
We have many promising young players that could replace them, for example, Connors for O'Donnell, O'Donoghue for O'Mahony, Boyle for Murphy, that could be brought into the wider squad instead.

Dubinusa

Wouldn't write Jordi off! He's very capable in all positions in the back row! He can certainly do the job and he's brilliant when on top form. He's going to be in the mix too. He's certainly got time on his side as he is only 27!

Jump_In_Jack

Dubinusa wrote: »

Wouldn't write Jordi off! He's very capable in all positions in the back row! He can certainly do the job and he's brilliant when on top form. He's going to be in the mix too. He's certainly got time on his side as he is only 27!

Jordi is 28, but for example, Paul Boyle is the same size as him and has been putting in good performances for a while now, and can cover the whole back row too, so would it be better to bring in a 22 year old with potential, or bring back in a 28 year old that has probably peaked and been through a few injuries, and isn't really putting in stand-out performances to say he is any better that Boyle, for example.
There are other young players out there too.

Simply put, if not a starting player, having young players in the wider squad is an investment in the future.

I guess the obvious counter-argument is to pick the best players regardless of age, but that ignores the philosophy that you need to bring in fresh blood regularly to see if they can step up a level, and it takes time for them to adjust to that level, so if always relying on seasoned players there will come a time where there will be too big a gap in experience to fill when older players finish up.

There are many ways the process of blooding-in new players could be approached, and the six nations cycle and the world cup cycle demand a systematic approach where the team can peak at certain times, I just think weighing it up at the moment that the best approach for this six nations would be to blood-in some young players in the wider squad as there appears to be an unprecedented amount of talent coming through at the moment.

Bridge93

So it appears Ross Byrne is the undisputed starting 10 now come February? Unless sexton makes a miraculous comeback

Bridge93

Bridge93 wrote: »

So it appears Ross Byrne is the undisputed starting 10 now come February? Unless sexton makes a miraculous comeback

Just read the Carbery news. Absolute disaster for him, he has no luck at all.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Just read the Carbery news. Absolute disaster for him, he has no luck at all.

Balls...just read it myself...broken arm... disaster

Squidgy Black

Ignore my last post, thought we were talking about Cullen saying Sexton definitely won't be back for the Treviso game....

Dubinusa

So with Carberry out and Sexton not back yet! It looks like a toss up between R.B and Burns. Of course Carty could make an impact yet but he's really struggling this year.
AF may be forced a hand he didn't expect!

stephen_n

Bridge93 wrote: »

So it appears Ross Byrne is the undisputed starting 10 now come February? Unless sexton makes a miraculous comeback

Is Carthy injured?

Bazzo

stephen_n wrote: »

Is Carthy injured?

No, but he wasn't included in the Ireland squad meetup at Christmas while Byrne and Burns both were. He will be starting all Connacht's matches for the next few weeks since Fitzgerald was injured against Leinster so I suppose we'll see how he goes.

Depending on Sexton's fitness - there is a chance that some lads will be getting calls they definitely weren't expecting. From a Leinster point of view Frawley or Harry Byrne may be brought into camp. Burns at Ulster definitely. Madigan couldn't pick a better time to announce he is returning to Ireland next season albeit no idea whether that would make a difference either way - he's a long way from the starting outhalf in the 2015 World Cup Quarter Final.

I imagine this is Carty back in the setup too which will do his confidence no harm at all. Getting a chance to prove himself again and build in that environment will be good for the head space.

Wegians89

Deleted User wrote: »

Depending on Sexton's fitness - there is a chance that some lads will be getting calls they definitely weren't expecting. From a Leinster point of view Frawley or Harry Byrne may be brought into camp. Burns at Ulster definitely. Madigan couldn't pick a better time to announce he is returning to Ireland next season albeit no idea whether that would make a difference either way - he's a long way from the starting outhalf in the 2015 World Cup Quarter Final.

I imagine this is Carty back in the setup too which will do his confidence no harm at all. Getting a chance to prove himself again and build in that environment will be good for the head space.

Which province would be silly enough to take Madigan?

sydthebeat

Wegians89 wrote: »

Which province would be silly enough to take Madigan?

The one with no fit out half's??

Kidding, but if terms were right....

aloooof

Wegians89 wrote: »

Which province would be silly enough to take Madigan?

Agreed, I don't see it happening. Even if he did sign for someone for next season, that still may not be enough to be considered; thinking Tadhg Beirne when he was with Scarlets, and had signed for Munster.

Squidgy Black

Munster might take a punt on him if Bleyendaal doesn't return with his neck injuries. Carbery is perpetually injured and even when he's not he's going to be away with Ireland camps, so that leaves Healy and JJ. A 3rd senior outhalf who can cover 12 wouldn't do any harm if the price is right, and I'd imagine his wages will be slashed regardless.

Buer

It will be interesting to see where Madigan ends up next season. I don't think he'll come back to Ireland. He's more than likely going to be second choice regardless of where he goes and he'll take a savage drop in salary.

I'd expect he'll take a drop in salary regardless but I could see him being back up in England somewhere rather than Ireland and commanding more money. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire relatively young either (maybe one more contract after this one).

Buer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

A 3rd senior outhalf who can cover 12 wouldn't do any harm if the price is right, and I'd imagine his wages will be slashed regardless.

Is that not realistically what Scannell is? This outhalf situation is fairly unprecedented as far as I can recall. I don't think they can sign a relatively high profile player to be third choice particularly when they have someone like Healy available to them.

TB should be done with. His injury situation simply isn't viable. Carbery, Hanrahan and Healy should be sufficient with Scannell providing cover there too.

If TB goes, another signing is viable as you say but I don't think it should be someone like Madigan who won't be moving home for less than six figures and I don't think Munster should be looking to sign someone for more than that. They've let Conor Fitzgerald go to Connacht and Bill Johnston go to Ulster who would be ideal for those scenarios. In fairness, neither were ever going to get the opportunities they have now if they stayed in Limerick.

What they might be able to do is look at someone like Frawley. The outhalf situation in Munster is so up in the air that there's a real gap there for someone to come in and make a claim for a spot in their 23. He's just turned 22 and opportunities are in very short supply for him in Leinster.

EachSmallChime

Deleted User wrote: »

Depending on Sexton's fitness - there is a chance that some lads will be getting calls they definitely weren't expecting. From a Leinster point of view Frawley or Harry Byrne may be brought into camp. Burns at Ulster definitely. Madigan couldn't pick a better time to announce he is returning to Ireland next season albeit no idea whether that would make a difference either way - he's a long way from the starting outhalf in the 2015 World Cup Quarter Final.

I imagine this is Carty back in the setup too which will do his confidence no harm at all. Getting a chance to prove himself again and build in that environment will be good for the head space.

Andy Friend said over Xmas that Carty text him from his holiday to say he didn't realise how fatigued he was. Missing out on a summer and breaking your hole trying to make a RWC squad probably just drained him and he crashed.

With Conor Fitz out, he has a chance to play his way back into form. maybe just in time to be considered.

aloooof

Buer wrote: »

What they might be able to do is look at someone like Frawley. The outhalf situation in Munster is so up in the air that there's a real gap there for someone to come in and make a claim for a spot in their 23. He's just turned 22 and opportunities are in very short supply for him in Leinster.

Frawley was touted as a short-term loan option when Hanrahan first got injured this season, but now with the Ireland injury situation i.e. Sexton and Carbery injured, this puts Ross Byrne firmly in the Ireland 23, so Leinster will be in more need of Frawley during the 6 Nations. In that sense, I think it's less likely to happen.

EDIT: My bad, it was actually Harry Byrne that was touted as a short-term option.

kingofthekong

Shouldve given Bill Johnston more gametime and they wouldnt be in this situation

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Shouldve given Bill Johnston more gametime and they wouldnt be in this situation

In fairness, it's pretty unprecedented having your 3 senior OH's out injured.

Interested Observer

aloooof wrote: »

In fairness, it's pretty unprecedented having your 3 senior OH's out injured.

Even 2 injured would have brought him onto the bench, and Bleyendaal has an absolutely awful injury record so it's not that much of a stretch.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

Is that not realistically what Scannell is? This outhalf situation is fairly unprecedented as far as I can recall. I don't think they can sign a relatively high profile player to be third choice particularly when they have someone like Healy available to them.

TB should be done with. His injury situation simply isn't viable. Carbery, Hanrahan and Healy should be sufficient with Scannell providing cover there too.

If TB goes, another signing is viable as you say but I don't think it should be someone like Madigan who won't be moving home for less than six figures and I don't think Munster should be looking to sign someone for more than that. They've let Conor Fitzgerald go to Connacht and Bill Johnston go to Ulster who would be ideal for those scenarios. In fairness, neither were ever going to get the opportunities they have now if they stayed in Limerick.

What they might be able to do is look at someone like Frawley. The outhalf situation in Munster is so up in the air that there's a real gap there for someone to come in and make a claim for a spot in their 23. He's just turned 22 and opportunities are in very short supply for him in Leinster.

I'm pretty sure Connacht made Frawley an offer a couple years back but he turned it down. Things have obviously probably changed a bit since then though.

thomond2006

kingofthekong wrote: »

Shouldve given Bill Johnston more gametime and they wouldnt be in this situation

Munster have Ben Healy. Johnston wasn't needed anymore and spent a lot of his Munster career out injured.

Buer

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Connacht made Frawley an offer a couple years back but he turned it down. Things have obviously probably changed a bit since then though.

Yup. Frawley was getting a lot of good press 2 years ago given his age and the fact that he had started in the Pro14 due to injuries. Now, due to his own injuries and the emergence of others, his star has potentially dimmed somewhat or, at the very least, his future is looking a little less promising at Leinster.

I think he's someone that Connacht/Munster should certainly be looking at. For a start, he's an excellent goal kicker which is a massive boost to any team. He attacks the line well with ball in hand an isn't afraid to have a cut as he showed against Connacht and Northampton. He does need a little more time to develop and improve his pass selection. His passing in the second half at the weekend was very sloppy and I recall some similar situations last season including a couple of intercept tries (well, one intercept...would have been two except the Scarlets spilled it in grounding).

I'd love if Leinster took a longer look at him playing 12 but it seems outhalf is where his future is.

Dubinusa

Frawley should stay put! He's going to see plenty of game time over the next few years. Sexton is getting on and R.B looks like he will be on international duty. Frawley and H.B will get lots of opportunities. Going to Munster doesn't make sense! Healy is highly rated, JJ is playing well and Carberry is going to be back.
Munster also have Flannery, who looks promising. Who knows in a couple of years, Frawley may be the 10 for Leinster!
Munster should let T.B go. He is injured more than not and healthwise, retirement would probably be his best option.

Former Former

aloooof wrote: »

In fairness, it's pretty unprecedented having your 3 senior OH's out injured.

When two of those three are Joey Carbery and Tyler Bleyendaal, it's not really that surprising. I know it's hard to plan for, but sooner or later Munster have to recognise that reality (I'm sure they already do).