Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

crisco10

Dubinusa wrote: »

Frawley should stay put! He's going to see plenty of game time over the next few years. Sexton is getting on and R.B looks like he will be on international duty. Frawley and H.B will get lots of opportunities. Going to Munster doesn't make sense! Healy is highly rated, JJ is playing well and Carberry is going to be back.
Munster also have Flannery, who looks promising. Who knows in a couple of years, Frawley may be the 10 for Leinster!
Munster should let T.B go. He is injured more than not and healthwise, retirement would probably be his best option.

It's all up for grabs at Leinster really. long term you can't see all of them staying, given RB, HB and CF are all under 25 so have at least 10 years in them (injury allowing etc). But who goes on to be the long term 10 is anyones guess really. And its not unforeseeable that it would be more form based than the last 10 years of "sexton fit, sexton plays".

errlloyd

Former Former wrote: »

When two of those three are Joey Carbery and Tyler Bleyendaal, it's not really that surprising. I know it's hard to plan for, but sooner or later Munster have to recognise that reality (I'm sure they already do).

I was the first person on here giving out when Munster had 4 senior outhalves on the books last year in JJ, Keat, TB and Joey. I think three was the correct number.

I think the main issue is that Leinster have one outhalf injury, and have given starts to the other three outhalves over the last three weeks. Munster have not been as willing with Healy.

aloooof

errlloyd wrote: »

I was the first person on here giving out when Munster had 4 senior outhalves on the books last year in JJ, Keat, TB and Joey. I think three was the correct number.

No disagreement there, but I think that scenario was a function of the last management team and the opportunity to get Carbery. It was pretty clear that at least one would leave, and Keatley did just that in the January.

errlloyd wrote: »

I think the main issue is that Leinster have one outhalf injury, and have given starts to the other three outhalves over the last three weeks. Munster have not been as willing with Healy.

I think the nearest comparison for Healy is with Harry Byrne, given they're both in the 2nd year of the academy. Byrne has started 2 games while Healy has started 1, so in terms of starts it's not all that different. Tho I accept Byrne has had more gametime off the bench.

kingofthekong

Sooooooo.........

There was a lot of debate before the recent interpro derbies about the players included in the recent ireland squad...

And also which players in the squad should make up the starting team..

There were calls for JOD to be in ahead of Deegan or Connors, should Cooney replace Murray

Who will be the starting backrow, is POM good enough to still make the team...

Kleyn, Roux or Toner

etc....etc


Who do people think will be in the 23?

Personally Id like to see:



1. HEALY
2. kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Deegan - on form with Stander to come off the bench with something to prove..deegan gets in ahead because his distribution is unmatched
7. VDF
8. Doris
9. Cooney
10. Byrne - Sexton if fit
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw or bUNDEE
13. Ringrose
14. Kearney
15. Larmour

Bench: Porter, Kilcoyne, Stander, Ruddock, Herring, Toner/kleyn, Conway, Sexton/Byrne

mfceiling

kingofthekong wrote: »

Sooooooo.........

There was a lot of debate before the recent interpro derbies about the players included in the recent ireland squad...

And also which players in the squad should make up the starting team..

There were calls for JOD to be in ahead of Deegan or Connors, should Cooney replace Murray

Who will be the starting backrow, is POM good enough to still make the team...

Kleyn, Roux or Toner

etc....etc


Who do people think will be in the 23?

Personally Id like to see:



1. HEALY
2. kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Kleyn or Toner both are pretty even imo
6. Deegan - on form with Stander to come off the bench with something to prove..deegan gets in ahead because his distribution is unmatched
7. VDF
8. Doris
9. Cooney
10. Byrne - Sexton if fit
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw or bUNDEE
13. Ringrose
14. Kearney
15. Larmour

Bench: Porter, Kilcoyne, Stander, Ruddock, Herring, Toner, Conway, Sexton/Byrne

Kleyn ahead of Henderson?

Hmmm.....

Buer

Dubinusa wrote: »

Frawley should stay put! He's going to see plenty of game time over the next few years. Sexton is getting on and R.B looks like he will be on international duty. Frawley and H.B will get lots of opportunities. Going to Munster doesn't make sense! Healy is highly rated, JJ is playing well and Carberry is going to be back.
Munster also have Flannery, who looks promising. Who knows in a couple of years, Frawley may be the 10 for Leinster!
Munster should let T.B go. He is injured more than not and healthwise, retirement would probably be his best option.

People have this assumption that Sexton is going to suddenly disappear. He's still playing very well and is the best 10 in the country still. I can absolutely see him remaining with Leinster for 2 seasons after this one. He may not be first choice but he'll be there and featuring.

Frawley has found himself competing for game time with Harry Byrne this season and Byrne is highly rated having managed a couple of starts already. If Frawley backs himself to win the jersey in Leinster, fair play to him but he'll need to beat out strong competition and will more than likely struggle for the required amounts of game time.

The level of competition in the future at Munster won't be as high. Carbery is very highly rated but made of glass and is likely to be with Ireland when fit for chunks of the season. JJH has had his best run of form for Munster but he's 28 next summer and Frawley should be backing himself to pass him out as well as Healy who was back up to Harry Byrne at U20 level. There's a very clear route to being in the Munster 23 within 18 months. The same cannot be said at Leinster unless Frawley is happy to be a bit part player until he's 25.

Something will have to give at Leinster as it's highly unlikely they're going to be able to keep three young, well regarded outhalves happy with adequate game time.

kingofthekong

mfceiling wrote: »

Kleyn ahead of Henderson?

Hmmm.....

completley forgot about henderson - ill edit

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Bench: Porter, Kilcoyne, Stander, Ruddock, Herring, Toner/kleyn, Conway, Sexton/Byrne

6/2 split on the bench? I wonder when the last time we saw that for Ireland was?

Bridge93

There is absolutely no chance Farrell picks a 23 for Scotland with no sub scrum half

The Rape of Lucretia

kingofthekong wrote: »

Personally Id like to see:

1. HEALY
2. kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Deegan - on form with Stander to come off the bench with something to prove..deegan gets in ahead because his distribution is unmatched
7. VDF
8. Doris
9. Cooney
10. Byrne - Sexton if fit
11. Stockdale
12. Henshaw or bUNDEE
13. Ringrose
14. Kearney
15. Larmour

While Murray, Earlsie, Stander, and O'Mahoney all have genuine chances of not starting, the full set would mean no Munster player in the starting 15.
Quiz Q : when did that last happen ?

kingofthekong

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

While Murray, Earlsie, Stander, and O'Mahoney all have genuine chances of not starting, the full set would mean no Munster player in the starting 15.
Quiz Q : when did that last happen ?

None of them for me deserve to start, there shouldnt be a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation - this is thew highest level of sport and theres no room for picking based on equality between the provinces ,

I want to see ireland win..so the inform players need to play, it also sends a wider message to all the fringe players...if your playing well you have a shot....that in my opinion is vital for driving players on...

Will also give the kick in the ass to senior players that they need to up their game if they are to get the jersey back just like anyone else

Its a healthier environment to have similar to the allblacks....Rieko Ioane (argualbly best wing in the world a couple years ago) didnt get a look in at the world cup because his form dipped marginally.....Ireland need to have that ruthlessness

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

None of them for me deserve to start, there shouldnt be a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation - this is thew highest level of sport and theres no room for picking based on equality between the provinces ,

But there isn't a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation

Joe picked the guys he thought were best for the job. You might disagree with his selections, that's totally fair. But he didn't just pick them to balance representation of the provinces. Same with Andy Farrell, he'll pick what he and his coaches think is the best selection.

Just because you disagree with a selection doesn't mean it's being done for provincial optics.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

But there isn't a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation

Joe picked the guys he thought were best for the job. You might disagree with his selections, that's totally fair. But he didn't just pick them to balance representation of the provinces. Same with Andy Farrell, he'll pick what he and his coaches think is the best selection.

Just because you disagree with a selection doesn't mean it's being done for provincial optics.

Exactly. I actually cant believe these conversations are still being had. Coaches pick the team they feel will best deliver for them. Doing anything else would be utterly counter productive. No coach is judged based on anything other than results. Why would anyone ever think selection would be done on anything other than the basis of achieving results!?

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. I actually cant believe these conversations are still being had. Coaches pick the team they feel will best deliver for them. Doing anything else would be utterly counter productive. No coach is judged based on anything other than results. Why would anyone ever think selection would be done on anything other than the basis of achieving results!?

They're under way too much pressure to do anything else but pick what they think is the best team. It's bewildering to me why anyone would think otherwise.

yerrahbah

kingofthekong wrote: »

None of them for me deserve to start, there shouldnt be a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation - this is thew highest level of sport and theres no room for picking based on equality between the provinces ,

Did someone say there was?

Mr Tickle

kingofthekong wrote: »

Its a healthier environment to have similar to the allblacks....Rieko Ioane (argualbly best wing in the world a couple years ago) didnt get a look in at the world cup because his form dipped marginally.....Ireland need to have that ruthlessness

I agree to an extent. the risk is that you end up less like the AB's and more like France.

VayNiice

Listening to House of Rugby earlier and Flannery still believes POM has a good chance of being named captain and that Murray should still be starting also. He seems to think Cooney getting the scrubs minutes off the bench is still rewarding his good form but Murray has shown that he's world class in the past. I fear this sort of mentality is still going to be present in the new set up.

Hopefully Farrell takes a similar approach to what Lancaster did at the start of their partnership with England and clears out the deadwood.

sydthebeat

VayNiice wrote: »

Listening to House of Rugby earlier and Flannery still believes POM has a good chance of being named captain and that Murray should still be starting also. He seems to think Cooney getting the scrubs minutes off the bench is still rewarding his good form but Murray has shown that he's world class in the past. I fear this sort of mentality is still going to be present in the new set up.

Hopefully Farrell takes a similar approach to what Lancaster did at the start of their partnership with England and clears out the deadwood.

to be fair on flannery, he was saying that in the context of Ross Byrne starting, and using the risk of having an inexperienced 9 and 10 playing together as a mitigating factor to have an out of form murray in there alongside byrne.

I don't agree with it, but he wasnt simply saying straight out murray should be picked over cooney.

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

But there isn't a policy of lets pick an out of form Munster guy just so it doesnt look bias or just for representation

Joe picked the guys he thought were best for the job. You might disagree with his selections, that's totally fair. But he didn't just pick them to balance representation of the provinces. Same with Andy Farrell, he'll pick what he and his coaches think is the best selection.

Just because you disagree with a selection doesn't mean it's being done for provincial optics.

Disagree i think theres massive pressure that would be piled on the coach if he were to just pick the Leinster team and not inlcude a single player from another province which he could conceivably do......

Bar Stockdale and Cooney who just cant be left out

Interested Observer

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair on flannery, he was saying that in the context of Ross Byrne starting, and using the risk of having an inexperienced 9 and 10 playing together as a mitigating factor to have an out of form murray in there alongside byrne.

I don't agree with it, but he wasnt simply saying straight out murray should be picked over cooney.

I thought he was just using some nonsense about experience as window-dressing, he clearly thought Murray was still the man to start. He ended up just saying something like 'well what do you have to lose by starting Murray??' - obviously not starting a guy playing much better rugby is the answer.

He also mentioned POM as an option at 7 and talked about him as a guy who the coaches might just pick to start no matter what, and had him in the conversation for captain. He's off his rocker.

sydthebeat

kingofthekong wrote: »

Disagree i think theres massive pressure that would be piled on the coach if he were to just pick the Leinster team and not inlcude a single player from another province which he could conceivably do......

I dont believe ANY international coach work work under the condition or pressure where they do not have full control over the team they select.

kingofthekong

Interested Observer wrote: »

I thought he was just using some nonsense about experience as window-dressing, he clearly thought Murray was still the man to start. He ended up just saying something like 'well what do you have to lose by starting Murray??' - obviously not starting a guy playing much better rugby is the answer.

He also mentioned POM as an option at 7 and talked about him as a guy who the coaches might just pick to start no matter what, and had him in the conversation for captain. He's off his rocker.

Trimble also echoed this about POM and thinks he will start, disappointing as i think they feel the pressure to not talk about their former colleagues getting dropped for new up and comers,

POM shouldnt be within an assses roar of that team

VayNiice

sydthebeat wrote: »

to be fair on flannery, he was saying that in the context of Ross Byrne starting, and using the risk of having an inexperienced 9 and 10 playing together as a mitigating factor to have an out of form murray in there alongside byrne.

I don't agree with it, but he wasnt simply saying straight out murray should be picked over cooney.

I don't think Carberys injury was public yet and they never mentioned Ross Byrne. He said it'd be awkward to drop Murray and then have to call him up when Cooney doesn't deliver. He's incredibly biased towards munster

aloooof

VayNiice wrote: »

I don't think Carberys injury was public yet and they never mentioned Ross Byrne. He said it'd be awkward to drop Murray and then have to call him up when Cooney doesn't deliver. He's incredibly biased towards munster

Is that an exact quote? I'd be amazed if so.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Disagree i think theres massive pressure that would be piled on the coach if he were to just pick the Leinster team and not inlcude a single player from another province which he could conceivably do......

Bar Stockdale and Cooney who just cant be left out

There would be massive pressure on any coach that did it. But that's entirely distinct from there being a policy preventing it, which is what you earlier suggested. You even admit as much yourself with the bolded part.

FrannoFan

Interested Observer wrote: »

I thought he was just using some nonsense about experience as window-dressing, he clearly thought Murray was still the man to start. He ended up just saying something like 'well what do you have to lose by starting Murray??' - obviously not starting a guy playing much better rugby is the answer.

He also mentioned POM as an option at 7 and talked about him as a guy who the coaches might just pick to start no matter what, and had him in the conversation for captain. He's off his rocker.

There is an unwritten rule in the Irish media and its that you can't criticise POM.

Don't mention his stats. Make sure you talk about his leadership qualities and all his "unseen" work. (the unseen work the general public are too uneducated on the nuances of the game to get)

Interested Observer

aloooof wrote: »

Is that an exact quote? I'd be amazed if so.

It's paraphrased rather than an exact quote but that's what they said yes.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Is that an exact quote? I'd be amazed if so.

He made the point that promoting Cooney from outside the RWC squad to inside the 6Ns 23 rewards his form and allows him then a more direct comparison to Murray by facing the same opposition in the same game. If hes better then he can displace Murray. That's a positive approach from a squad perspective. However if they dump him into the start 15 and it doesnt work, dropping Murray to the bench and then dropping Cooney from the starting line up to promote Murray again is a negative approach. It makes sense, although I'm not sure I agree. They all struggled to call out the poor form of some of the incumbents. Nit through provincial bias, more familiarity with the players themselves I'd say. Trimble was at pains from the start to stress Murrays abilities.

yerrahbah

FrannoFan wrote: »

There is an unwritten rule in the Irish media and its that you can't criticise POM.

Don't mention his stats. Make sure you talk about his leadership qualities and all his "unseen" work. (the unseen work the general public are too uneducated on the nuances of the game to get)

There is?

How long has that been in place and is it only POM that it applies to?

Clegg

yerrahbah wrote: »

There is?

How long has that been in place and is it only POM that it applies to?

Applies to Murray too. The general consensus is that Cooney's excellent form should give him the starting berth. But there's too little analysis on Murray's poor form.