Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Dubinusa

Nordi covers all 3 positions! He's good at all 3. His run at 7 this season has been great! He's a bit above J.O.D imo.

Faugheen

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I think based on the Stocktake and form you could look at it this way

6. Stander, Rhys, POM
7. Josh, Connors
8. Doris, Deegan, Stander

Based on stocktake and form.

Has Stander as top 6 despite not playing there, and as the third 8.

So is Stander in form or not?

aloooof

Dubinusa wrote: »

Nordi covers all 3 positions! He's good at all 3. His run at 7 this season has been great! He's a bit above J.O.D imo.

He wasn't in the stock take squad either so it's difficult to know what way Farrell sees it. Personally, I'd have JOD ahead of him but there isn't much between them.

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

You seem to have missed my point.

Connors is a 7. Deegan is an 8/6. Doris is an 8. JOD can play all 3 positions. That is what differentiates him from those guys that might get him into the 23, specifically into the #20 jersey. (And even at that, I said he's odds against). That's all I'm saying.

your saying his lack of specificity is a positive? I see it as a negative there isnt a single area he excels in hes average at a number of things ....that doesnt scream international standard to me

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

Penny has 9 Pro14 starts to his name. He hasn't even appeared off the bench for Leinster in Europe yet. If he was close to international caps, he'd be getting European starts for Leinster.

The Leinster team is a harder team to break into then the Munster one...Tommmy O'donnel would be playing 'A' rugby for Leinster yet often starts for Munster

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

He wasn't in the stock take squad either so it's difficult to know what way Farrell sees it. Personally, I'd have JOD ahead of him but there isn't much between them.

Id have JOD ahead of Murphy aswell but not sure Farrell would...also its because I dont rate Nordi that highly either

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

your saying his lack of specificity is a positive?

It is for the #20 jersey.

kingofthekong wrote: »

I see it as a negative there isnt a single area he excels in hes average at a number of things ....that doesnt scream international standard to me

He's excellent as both a lineout operator and maul defence.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

The Leinster team is a harder team to break into then the Munster one...Tommmy O'donnel would be playing 'A' rugby for Leinster yet often starts for Munster

Penny's 9 starts have been against the following:
Dragons x2
Ulster x2
Zebre
Ospreys
Benetton
Edinburgh
Scarlets

I could be wrong, but ff you think Penny is ahead of JOD for caps during this 6 Nations, then I think you might be disappointed.

Buer

I honestly don't get the level of Penny hype for some. He looked comfortable in his performances without ever looking brilliant. He has bagged himself a handful of tries and came through at a very early age which I assume has coloured people's view. He has never started a match against any half decent side at this point. He's got a long, long way to go before he's in contention for test honours. First and foremost, he needs to aim to move up from 4th in the openside pecking order at Leinster.

sydthebeat

Conan is a better 8 than JOD

but JOD could be seen as a better fit for the 20 jersey than Conan...should his progression continue.

Horses for courses

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

Penny's 9 starts have been against the following:
Dragons x2
Ulster x2
Zebre
Ospreys
Benetton
Edinburgh
Scarlets

I could be wrong, but ff you think Penny is ahead of JOD for caps during this 6 Nations, then I think you might be disappointed.

The question wasn't about a likely hood of getting caps. JOD isn't within an asses roar of a cap, unless there are a rake of injuries. It was whether he's top 3 in any position, which I don't think he is.

kingofthekong

aloooof wrote: »

Penny's 9 starts have been against the following:
Dragons x2
Ulster x2
Zebre
Ospreys
Benetton
Edinburgh
Scarlets

I could be wrong, but ff you think Penny is ahead of JOD for caps during this 6 Nations, then I think you might be disappointed.

Never said Penny was ahead of JOD but you stating that Penny hasnt 'even' broke into the leinter team as something to be scoffed at

Leinster have probably the best backrow production line in the world, Penny as of right now isnt ahead of JOD because there are better players ahead of him and more competition then there is for JOD in Munster

kingofthekong

sydthebeat wrote: »

Conan is a better 8 than JOD

but JOD could be seen as a better fit for the 20 jersey than Conan...should his progression continue.

Horses for courses

lol'd at this, seriously?? JOD is behind way to many people for that jersey and no hes not a better fit then Conan

kingofthekong

Buer wrote: »

I honestly don't get the level of Penny hype for some. He looked comfortable in his performances without ever looking brilliant. He has bagged himself a handful of tries and came through at a very early age which I assume has coloured people's view. He has never started a match against any half decent side at this point. He's got a long, long way to go before he's in contention for test honours. First and foremost, he needs to aim to move up from 4th in the openside pecking order at Leinster.

He's massively hyped, because hes a very good player, and if you dont get why hes hyped then I cant help you with that..

Well see in the future whether or not he lives up to it

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The question wasn't about a likely hood of getting caps. JOD isn't within an asses roar of a cap, unless there are a rake of injuries. It was whether he's top 3 in any position, which I don't think he is.

I don't really see why you think a guy who is 25, has international caps to his name already, and has probably had his best half-season of rugby since coming back from injury "isn't with an asses roar of a cap". He could easily feature, at least against Italy, say.

kingofthekong wrote: »

Never said Penny was ahead of JOD but you stating that Penny hasnt 'even' broke into the leinter team as something to be scoffed at

Leinster have probably the best backrow production line in the world, Penny as of right now isnt ahead of JOD because there are better players ahead of him and more competition then there is for JOD in Munster

I wasn't scoffing at Penny. Just pointing at that it would be atypical in the extreme that a player (with as little as 9 Pro14 starts and no European appears) would being to pick up international caps.


But fair enough, lads. You both seem agree with me that JOD is more likely to get caps this 6 Nations than Penny, at least.

Dubinusa

I suppose we should gaze into the crystal ball and see what we look like in 2 or 3 years! That said, this 6nations is very important for Farrell.
This is why I presume that there will not be major breakthroughs until the autumn series. I believe there's going to be about 10 new caps this year. But, the 6nations will only see the introduction of maybe 4. Certainly Burns is one that could play a part. Possibly Doris and Deegan.
But 2 or 3 years from now Rk will be gone. Earl's too. Earl's may not make the upcoming tournament. Sexton is most likely gone also! Healy will be waning and Cronin most likely too. Toner should be gone as well as POM and Murray. That means there will be a new nucleus!
Of the current contenders, I see Connors as a viable addition. Kelleher obviously and Balacoune. Perhaps Thornbury will stay injury free and get a shot. There is 50 odd lads with a shout over the next 2 to 3 years!
Attrition will account for some of the new faces and of course injury and form.
Farrell, I assume is looking to the summer and autumn series to make changes. By next years 6nations, we will have a different squad.
This year I think the following get capped.
JGP
Balacoune
Connors
Deegan
Doris
Wycherly
Thornbury
Boyle
Lowe
Kelleher.

Possibles!
McBurney
Butler
Shane Daly
Lyttle
EOS

arsebiscuits1

Dubinusa wrote: »

This year I think the following get capped.
JGP
Balacoune
Connors
Deegan
Doris
Wycherly
Thornbury
Boyle
Lowe
Kelleher.

Possibles!
McBurney
Butler
Shane Daly
Lyttle
EOS

Wycherley wont get capped for the same reason that Billy Holland has won a single international cap in 13 years - he's too small. He's a generous 6'4" so he be the second smallest lock we've capped in the last 10 years after Billy Holland whose the smallest we've capped in the Pro era.

I like Wycherley. He's tough and uncompromising. But unless he can prove a viable option at 6 also I think we will see Baird in green before him (and not necessarily this season)

I think we'd see Butler before Boyle of all the Connacht back rows. I think 7s who can cover 8 are more valuable than 6s who can cover 8

I'm not sure Rob Lyttle will cut it at Pro Rugby to be honest. Has he been fit for more than 3 games in a row? I think himself and Peter Robb will fall into the extremely talented but brittle category.

bilston

Dubinusa wrote: »

I suppose we should gaze into the crystal ball and see what we look like in 2 or 3 years! That said, this 6nations is very important for Farrell.
This is why I presume that there will not be major breakthroughs until the autumn series. I believe there's going to be about 10 new caps this year. But, the 6nations will only see the introduction of maybe 4. Certainly Burns is one that could play a part. Possibly Doris and Deegan.
But 2 or 3 years from now Rk will be gone. Earl's too. Earl's may not make the upcoming tournament. Sexton is most likely gone also! Healy will be waning and Cronin most likely too. Toner should be gone as well as POM and Murray. That means there will be a new nucleus!
Of the current contenders, I see Connors as a viable addition. Kelleher obviously and Balacoune. Perhaps Thornbury will stay injury free and get a shot. There is 50 odd lads with a shout over the next 2 to 3 years!
Attrition will account for some of the new faces and of course injury and form.
Farrell, I assume is looking to the summer and autumn series to make changes. By next years 6nations, we will have a different squad.
This year I think the following get capped.
JGP
Balacoune
Connors
Deegan
Doris
Wycherly
Thornbury
Boyle
Lowe
Kelleher.

Possibles!
McBurney
Butler
Shane Daly
Lyttle
EOS

It depends who play in June and November.

However I'd say Lowe, Gibson Park, Kelleher and at least one of Doris and Deegan are almost certain to be capped.

However there will probably be others as you have listed. Someone I reckon mm ight get a cap in 2020 who you didn't mention is Tom O'Toole. His scrummaging is improving all the time, the rest of his game looks to be top class.

aloooof

bilston wrote: »

It depends who play in June and November.

However I'd say Lowe, Gibson Park, Kelleher and at least one of Doris and Deegan are almost certain to be capped.

However there will probably be others as you have listed. Someone I reckon mm ight get a cap in 2020 who you didn't mention is Tom O'Toole. His scrummaging is improving all the time, the rest of his game looks to be top class.

It's actually July this year, due to the RWC. Hell of a long season.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He's a better player now, and is only going to get better.

Clearly you don’t watch any Munster games so.

theVersatile

Lots of people here asking for players to be chosen on form, yet JOD is being laughed at even though he's the form back row in the country...

Most turnovers of any Irish player in the competition : 7 (Doris next closest with 6), including three line-out steals, a joint highest for an Irish players (mind plenty others have three).

Want Ireland to play more expansively? Well luckily JOD also has the most offloads of any Irish player in the Pro14 this season with 10 (next closest Addison and T. Darrell with 7, next closest forward Paul Boyle with 6)

Second highest number of carries of an Irish player: 87 (behind Boyle who was 105, next closest backrow is Deegan at 81 - mind I'm not sure what the minutes comparison is between the two).

98 tackles, ahead of Doris & Deegan - behind Connor, O'connor, Reidy, Rea and Boyle.

His maul prowess has been discussed at length already.

Ultimately the stats do not mean everything (otherwise Paul Boyle would be Irish captain and Shane Daly would be starting at 15), but nobody should be scoffing at the idea of JOD in a green jersey.

Stats from Pro14 Statistics Media Resource: https://www.pro14rugby.org/media-resource-opta-stats/

sydthebeat

I wouldnt bother, some people are just one eyed when it comes to JOD

bilston

aloooof wrote: »

It's actually July this year, due to the RWC. Hell of a long season.

So it is, and we play Australia. Not much hope of rotation then, unless there are injuries

phily2002

Think JOD is going well but his discipline let's him down. Can't see him getting a run unless there's a number of injuries(the stocktake shows he's not really in the coaches thoughts). He's Munsters best backrow this year but don't think 7 is his position, I'd play him at 6 but that means playing off form POM out of position or O'Donnell.
Think he needs a run at 6 or 8 consistently but don't think he'll get it.

Faugheen

theVersatile wrote: »

Lots of people here asking for players to be chosen on form, yet JOD is being laughed at even though he's the form back row in the country...

Most turnovers of any Irish player in the competition : 7 (Doris next closest with 6), including three line-out steals, a joint highest for an Irish players (mind plenty others have three).

Want Ireland to play more expansively? Well luckily JOD also has the most offloads of any Irish player in the Pro14 this season with 10 (next closest Addison and T. Darrell with 7, next closest forward Paul Boyle with 6)

Second highest number of carries of an Irish player: 87 (behind Boyle who was 105, next closest backrow is Deegan at 81 - mind I'm not sure what the minutes comparison is between the two).

98 tackles, ahead of Doris & Deegan - behind Connor, O'connor, Reidy, Rea and Boyle.

His maul prowess has been discussed at length already.

Ultimately the stats do not mean everything (otherwise Paul Boyle would be Irish captain and Shane Daly would be starting at 15), but nobody should be scoffing at the idea of JOD in a green jersey.

Stats from Pro14 Statistics Media Resource: https://www.pro14rugby.org/media-resource-opta-stats/

If you want to pick a form team, where does JOD fit?

You can take the stats from the Pro14 and I would say fair enough, but how does he compare in Europe?

Ruddock has been the form 6 in the in the country for the bones of 2 years at provincial level. He brings levels of physicality that I personally don’t think JOD has in comparison. He’s a line out option and while he isn’t winning many turnovers on the ground, there’s no Irish back-row (with the exception of maybe Stander) who can rip the ball in contact as well as he can.

JOD has been playing at 7 more often than not, and he (along with everyone else) is leagues behind Van Der Flier in that position.

At 8, I’ve lost count of the number of times we’ve had the debate about Stander being dropped (myself included) based on provincial form but he has shown during every international window just how good he is. He was one of our better players at the World Cup. He’s an option at 6 also. Then you’ve the two Leinster 8s who are lighting it up at the moment.

Get Gilroy from OTB had him starting at 6. He’s not the form 6 in Ireland (mind you Eoin had POM which was even more ridiculous). To say he shouldn’t be starting isn’t ‘scoffing’ at him. There are just players you could argue are in better form than him.

His discipline really isn’t great either. He has a tendency to give away silly penalties especially when his team is under pressure.

All that said, if he was named to start tomorrow I don’t think many would be worried about him.

shootermacg

Faugheen wrote: »

If you want to pick a form team, where does JOD fit?

You can take the stats from the Pro14 and I would say fair enough, but how does he compare in Europe?

Ruddock has been the form 6 in the in the country for the bones of 2 years at provincial level. He brings levels of physicality that I personally don’t think JOD has in comparison. He’s a line out option and while he isn’t winning many turnovers on the ground, there’s no Irish back-row (with the exception of maybe Stander) who can rip the ball in contact as well as he can.

JOD has been playing at 7 more often than not, and he (along with everyone else) is leagues behind Van Der Flier in that position.

At 8, I’ve lost count of the number of times we’ve had the debate about Stander being dropped (myself included) based on provincial form but he has shown during every international window just how good he is. He was one of our better players at the World Cup. He’s an option at 6 also. Then you’ve the two Leinster 8s who are lighting it up at the moment.

Get Gilroy from OTB had him starting at 6. He’s not the form 6 in Ireland (mind you Eoin had POM which was even more ridiculous). To say he shouldn’t be starting isn’t ‘scoffing’ at him. There are just players you could argue are in better form than him.

His discipline really isn’t great either. He has a tendency to give away silly penalties especially when his team is under pressure.

All that said, if he was named to start tomorrow I don’t think many would be worried about him.

Yeah, Ruddock wins zero turnovers. It was like watching paint dry to see him against Italy last year. They just kept the ball in the second half and there was FA that he did about it. Beirne comes on and turns two balls over in 5 minutes.

The world is full of piano shifters, but very few can play the piano.

Faugheen

shootermacg wrote: »

Yeah, Ruddock wins zero turnovers. It was like watching paint dry to see him against Italy last year. They just kept the ball in the second half and there was FA that he did about it. Beirne comes on and turns two balls over in 5 minutes.

The world is full of piano shifters, but very few can play the piano.

A game from 2018 is the best you can do to discredit Ruddock?

aloooof

I’d agree with a decent amount of your post Faugheen, but just a couple of points:

Faugheen wrote: »

If you want to pick a form team, where does JOD fit?

Probably in the 20 jersey.

Faugheen wrote: »

JOD has been playing at 7 more often than not, and he (along with everyone else) is leagues behind Van Der Flier in that position.

He’s actually had far more game time at 6 this season than 7. He’s definitely a better 8 or 6 than he is a 7 alright tho.

Faugheen wrote: »

Get Gilroy from OTB had him starting at 6. He’s not the form 6 in Ireland (mind you Eoin had POM which was even more ridiculous). To say he shouldn’t be starting isn’t ‘scoffing’ at him. There are just players you could argue are in better form than him.

That’s not what was being said tho. One poster said he “shouldn’t be with it an asses roar of the team”. Which is clearly ridiculous.

Personally I think I’d have Ruddock, VdF and Stander as starters and see how that goes. I’d have a small concern about turnover threat / slowing down the ball, but that’s less of an issue if you’re making dominant tackles behind the gain line, which that back row is well capable of doing.

I’d also probably have Toner in the second row. His form deserves it and it’d help compensate with the lineout from not having POM.

We wouldn’t be as strong in our defensive line outs also tho, imo.

Clegg

I think Beirne has the same problem as POM. Both have a strong all round game. They're great in the air and snaffling ball on the ground. But they're not the strongest of carriers or hitters. Their qualities are great when you've a dominant tight 5. But in the last 12 months we've seen our players smashed up front so often. They don't offer enough when we're on the back foot. Ruddock wins collisions and makes dominant hits. He may not have the all round game of the others, but he has qualities they don't. Notably his ball carrying and footwork. He's not a straight bosh merchant. Has a good shift if movement that lets him hit soft shoulders and make more metres than he should.

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

I’d agree with a decent amount of your post Faugheen, but just a couple of points:



Probably in the 20 jersey.



He’s actually had far more game time at 6 this season than 7. He’s definitely a better 8 or 6 than he is a 7 alright tho.



That’s not what was being said tho. One poster said he “shouldn’t be with it an asses roar of the team”. Which is clearly ridiculous.

Personally I think I’d have Ruddock, VdF and Stander as starters and see how that goes. I’d have a small concern about turnover threat / slowing down the ball, but that’s less of an issue if you’re making dominant tackles behind the gain line, which that back row is well capable of doing.

I’d also probably have Toner in the second row. His form deserves it and it’d help compensate with the lineout from not having POM.

We wouldn’t be as strong in our defensive line outs also tho, imo.

He's not within a shout of the team, imo, because he's at best the 3rd option in any one of the positions. There are multiple better players in front of him, and that's only going to get worse as guys return from injury.