Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

It did fail. And Henshaw should be by no means favourite for the 12 shirt for the 6Ns as it stands. That doesnt actually change any of what I said though. Just because someone is playing well for their province does not mean they will play well for Ireland. That was simply my point. And new guys coming in do have an element of uncertainty around them. Theres absolutely no point in rehashing old discussions about 2019 because none of it changes any of the above one way or the other.

Sure there's uncertainty, but the only way players banging on the door are going to get any better or move up a level is if they get a real chance to do it.

There's a tonne of uncertainty around picking Henshaw too by the way. I certainly would not be confident selecting him based on what he has offered recently.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Sure there's uncertainty, but the only way players banging on the door are going to get any better or move up a level is if they get a real chance to do it.

There's a tonne of uncertainty around picking Henshaw too by the way. I certainly would not be confident selecting him based on what he has offered recently.

I agree. That's what I mean about coaches making educated guesses based on what they are seeing in training. What are the respective pros and cons and how do they think that will affect performance and result. Then they go with what they deem to be the best option. They dont just say "ah Henshaw has done it before, maybe he'll do it again" any more than they say "ah isnt McCloskey playing well for Ulster, sure let's stick him at 12".

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I agree.

I need to stop making a habit of this.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

He has earned a call up to the squad to see how he fits in. Nothing else. We need to stop talking about selecting players for Ireland based on how they perform with a different team, beside different players, playing a different way at a different level.

Players perform well and get a call up. Some perform so well that they push themselves into poll position for a jersey. Then the coaches see how guys fit the game plan, how they gel with one another etc. From those training camps they essentially make educated guesses about how a player will step up to Test rugby (assuming they havent before or at least in some time).

That's why a lot of coaches around the world often stick with tried and trusted, because they know that these guys can play at that level and it takes a lot of the guesswork out of selection. .

thats all fine and well when your longer into a coaches tenure, however this is Farrells first ever test competition as head coach so id say all cards are on the table, and previous test level performances will only get you so far.

Form definitely gets you in the door, but to be honest, a good coach will dictate a way of playing to suit the best attributes of his players. Jamie Joseph didnt have the japanese playing bosh rugby.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats all fine and well when your longer into a coaches tenure, however this is Farrells first ever test competition as head coach so id say all cards are on the table, and previous test level performances will only get you so far.

Form definitely gets you in the door, but to be honest, a good coach will dictate a way of playing to suit the best attributes of his players. Jamie Joseph didnt have the japanese playing bosh rugby.

Agree with all of the above too. Previous form at Test level is only 1 factor like form at provincial level is only 1 factor. And good coaches will adapt how they want a side to play to suit the team as much as anything. In that way Farrell already has a leg up on someone who would be coming from outside the set-up as he will be very familiar with the players from the outset. Youd have to think he already knew what way he wanted to go before taking the role as he knew just what he was working with.

awec

I guess my point is that right now, there is no incumbent 12 as far as I am concerned. I don't think Henshaw has any more claim to that jersey than Aki or McCloskey. McCloskey is certainly the form 12 right now, and surely the front runner, but he'll have to stay at that level for the next few weeks, show that he's got it in training then show that he's got it in a match if he gets selected.

Henshaw I feel has a lot of ground to make up, and he's fast running out of time.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I guess my point is that right now, there is no incumbent 12 as far as I am concerned. I don't think Henshaw has any more claim to that jersey than Aki or McCloskey. McCloskey is certainly the form 12 right now, and surely the front runner, but he'll have to stay at that level for the next few weeks, show that he's got it in training then show that he's got it in a match if he gets selected.

Henshaw I feel has a lot of ground to make up, and he's fast running out of time.

In a way we're in a good place for the long term, if not for the short term. Very few spots are truly nailed on. Healy, Ryan, VDF, Sexton, Ringrose and Stockdale are probably the only ones who are. Maybe Furlong too, but Porter is pushing him hard. Meaning theres lots to play/train for over the next month. Hopefully Farrell can create something similar to Leinster in terms of competition for places, although he wont have much time or scope to do so by comparison.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

On the face of it a playmaker at 12 might be the way Ireland go based on the fact that that was exactly what Mike Catt was. I don't know that we have an obvious player to do that though. I agree Marshall was someone who a few years ago you'd have said had the quality to do it, but it hasn't worked out. Rory Scannell is the only other one I can think of but I don't think he is at test level.

Therefore we probably have to go the less subtle route.

Mike Catt was a 10 who got shifted to 12 because of Wilkinson though. Maybe something else we can look at, though none of the 10’s come to mind as international 12’s either.

Bazzo

stephen_n wrote: »

Mike Catt was a 10 who got shifted to 12 because of Wilkinson though. Maybe something else we can look at, though none of the 10’s come to mind as international 12’s either.

Byrne maybe, but that will never happen at Leinster. The others are probably too small.

errlloyd

stephen_n wrote: »

Mike Catt was a 10 who got shifted to 12 because of Wilkinson though. Maybe something else we can look at, though none of the 10’s come to mind as international 12’s either.

Catt played everywhere. He played a lot of his rugby for England at 15 too. Including when he got run over by Lomu!

the baby bull elephant

stephen_n wrote: »

Mike Catt was a 10 who got shifted to 12 because of Wilkinson though. Maybe something else we can look at, though none of the 10’s come to mind as international 12’s either.

I'd say Frawley would probably be the best candidate.

aloooof

stephen_n wrote: »

Mike Catt was a 10 who got shifted to 12 because of Wilkinson though. Maybe something else we can look at, though none of the 10’s come to mind as international 12’s either.

Sexton's probably the closest? (Tho that'll never happen, and nor should it, really).

Bazzo

errlloyd wrote: »

Catt played everywhere. He played a lot of his rugby for England at 15 too. Including when he got run over by Lomu!

I was going to say I remembered him as a full back but thought I was imagining things for a minute!

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

Sexton's probably the closest? (Tho that'll never happen, and nor should it, really).

It has been tried. It is not good.

typhoony

awec wrote: »

I guess my point is that right now, there is no incumbent 12 as far as I am concerned. I don't think Henshaw has any more claim to that jersey than Aki or McCloskey. McCloskey is certainly the form 12 right now, and surely the front runner, but he'll have to stay at that level for the next few weeks, show that he's got it in training then show that he's got it in a match if he gets selected.

Henshaw I feel has a lot of ground to make up, and he's fast running out of time.

I thought both Farrell and to a lesser extent McCloskey were found out at the weekend, their size might make them the form centres in PRO14 but when they come up against the top centres in European games they just don't have the same impact, for me Ringrose, Aki and Henshaw are still ahead of those 2.

Paul Smeenus

McCloskey has been excellent for a season and a half now, including most of his European games last season. Leinster certainly didn't seem to find him out in the QF last year - a game in which Darren Cave fully dominated Ringrose, which shows the issue with being "found out" based on one game.

The Rape of Lucretia

Henshaw is without doubt the incumbent 12 (by the same token, Earls and POM also are in their positions). He has been effectively first choice 12 for 4 years other than when injured or the experiment at 15.
Which is not to say he will be retained there. But not selecting him will be a dropping. All of which makes him the incumbent.

And I would keep him there. Unlike Earlsie or POM, who I would, and expect to be, dropped.

ionadnapokot

I would say Aki is nailed on at 12 for Scotland and probably throughout the 6N.

No way irfu gave the green light on his contract without Farrell giving the thumbs up. He’s solid, reliable and durable. Would love if he is given more scope to pass under Farrell.

Henshaw is going backwards with all the injuries.
McCloskey also deserves a go but without Sexton I doubt Farrell will also change up the 12. Although Andy loves a big 12!

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

the only way players banging on the door are going to get any better or move up a level is if they get a real chance to do it.

Is that really the case though ? Over the years, is it not the players who were really standing out at the level below international, and screaming for inclusion, that have gone on to be really international standard and successes ?
How many players, looking so so for their provinces or knocking around at a similar level for a few years without shooting the lights out, have really shown to develop and move up a grade as a result of being 'given a chance', as the saying goes, at international level ?

Professor Genius

stephen_n wrote: »

Everyone seems to be going for Henshaw. With very little gametime recently to measure him by, it’s hard to tell. Felt he had a very mixed bag yesterday though. I would have Aki or McCloskey ahead of him at present.

Henshaw strikes me as a player with a great future behind him.

Paul Smeenus

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Is that really the case though ? Over the years, is it not the players who were really standing out at the level below international, and screaming for inclusion, that have gone on to be really international standard and successes ?
How many players, looking so so for their provinces or knocking around at a similar level for a few years without shooting the lights out, have really shown to develop and move up a grade as a result of being 'given a chance', as the saying goes, at international level ?

Chris Henry

Paul Smeenus

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1216811350543958017?s=19

Bobby "Naive Defence" Baloucoune

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1216811350543958017?s=19

Bobby "Naive Defence" Baloucoune

Touch of Dave Kearney about him.

theVersatile

How's McCloskeys breakdown game? Bundees rucking is probably the one thing that sets him apart from every other centre in Ireland.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Touch of Dave Kearney about him.

On a more serious note, the fact that Dave, Cooney, and Rudds are in the mix as potential starters for Ireland should be ringing the alarms bells all round. Not that they arent deserving of being in the conversation, or even all being the right choice. Its that they correcly are, is the really worrying bit.

That three 30-ish, decent indeed club players, but really only some-caps-but-never-really-made-its on the international scene, being our best options, is a strong indication that our generally esteemed pipeline (all kneel for the Jesuits and Spiritans) isnt quite as rich as we might like to think.

The lacuna seems to be on the Munster front, bringing little, or quite likely nothing (a Leinster refugee being their most likely canidate to be involved) to the party.

Paul Smeenus

theVersatile wrote: »

How's McCloskeys breakdown game? Bundees rucking is probably the one thing that sets him apart from every other centre in Ireland.

Good, but not as good as Aki. McCloskey's strong, but doesn't have Aki's aggression in that department. But he's certainly not averse, and often manages to be a real nuisance.

In defense, he often goes for the choke tackle, which refs rarely let turn into a maul these days, but he often slows the attack down so that Ulster's defensive line can reset.

Paul Smeenus

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

On a more serious note, the fact that Dave, Cooney, and Rudds are in the mix as potential starters for Ireland should be ringing the alarms bells all round. Not that they arent deserving of being in the conversation, or even all being the right choice. Its that they correcly are, is the really worrying bit.

That three 30-ish, decent indeed club players, but really only some-caps-but-never-really-made-its on the international scene, being our best options, is a strong indication that our generally esteemed pipeline (all kneel for the Jesuits and Spiritans) isnt quite as rich as we might like to think.

The lacuna seems to be on the Munster front, bringing little, or quite likely nothing (a Leinster refugee being their most likely canidate to be involved) to the party.

The only one worrying there is Cooney. At wing and back row there are plenty of young, markedly talented lads starting to shine; scrumhalf not so much.

Former Former

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1216811350543958017?s=19

Bobby "Naive Defence" Baloucoune

Yeah it's maybe a bit harsh by Kinsella to point out his poor defensive read but I guess he has to call it as he sees it.

Still, as Kinsella goes on to note, he did well to recover from the error.

Thanks for sharing. Always good to see a poster admit his mistakes.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah it's maybe a bit harsh by Kinsella to point out his poor defensive read but I guess he has to call it as he sees it.

Still, as Kinsella goes on to note, he did well to recover from the error.

Thanks for sharing. Always good to see a poster admit his mistakes.

Droll. Still, you've bounced back nicely from your (now deleted) meltdown. Good to see. I was genuinely worried for you.

irishbucsfan

Its simply excellent defense, there's no real error in that passage. Good potential