Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's up to the younger lads to unseat them then. And they have that opportunity now.

It's up to the coaches to stop picking guys who haven't played well for about 12 months.

car_radio19834

What a massive disappointment.

Same as Schmidt.

What the hell is Toner coming back in for? Need to build for the world cup. Sexton getting the captaincy is another Joe like call.

Not a very brave start from Andy, very very conservative. Dave Kearney another who shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.

salmocab

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What a massive disappointment.

Same as Schmidt.

What the hell is Toner coming back in for? Need to build for the world cup. Sexton getting the captaincy is another Joe like call.

Not a very brave start from Andy, very very conservative. Dave Kearney another who shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.

Toner playing very well as is DK, we can’t clamour for form calls then give out when they happen.

Dave_The_Sheep

Trevorclever wrote: »

Ruddock is 30 in November. McCloskey is at his peak, gives us something we don't have in his position. Ruddock does not.

Come off it. McCloskey, Henshaw and Aki are all pretty similar type players. The only decision there is which ones do you prefer and which are in form. I personally think McCloskey should be picked in the squad, but to claim he's a massively different player to the other two is stretching things just a little.

Ruddock is 29, Stander is also 29 and POM is 30. Of those three players, Ruddock is in form, and the others are not.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Well, Henshaw has been playing well, haven't seen much of Aki since RWC to be honest but he's proven quality. McCloskey needed to be picked in addition to these two, displacing one of them was a big ask.

Stretching it a bit there FF I think...

In reality, Henshaw is in that squad purely because he's been in previous squads.

Farrell claims it's a squad based on form, blatantly nonsense, but more fool anyone expecting a coach to say anything different. You also cannot expect huge changes to a squad instantly, but the centre, 12 particularly, has been an area of weakness for Ireland and I am more than a little disappointed to see we're continuing with the same faces.

Squidgy Black

You have to feel bad for Andy in some respects.

Names 5 uncapped players, brings in a cohort of players who were given token caps in summer games and are playing well like JOD and Heffernan, and names 4 young lads as development players to bring into the setup.

But is still being called conservative and just like Joe.

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

It's up to the coaches to stop picking guys who haven't played well for about 12 months.

You can't just discard all your experience in one critical set of positions in one go. Especially with the injury profile in the back row. The injury list there is massive and we always over estimate how much depth we have. Bringing in three/four new players means you have to hold on to a couple of the old guard too. I have no great desire to see POM or Stander on the pitch, Stander less so as he does a particular job decently, but I can see the sense in having a transition.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

You can't just discard all your experience in one critical set of positions in one go. Especially with the injury profile in the back row. The injury list there is massive and we always over estimate how much depth we have. Bringing in three/four new players means you have to hold on to a couple of the old guard too. I have no great desire to see POM or Stander on the pitch, Stander less so as he does a particular job decently, but I can see the sense in having a transition.

What good was their experience in 2019 when they lost, often very heavily, to every single decent team they played?

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

What good was their experience in 2019 when they lost, often very heavily, to every single decent team they played?

Experience doesn't win you games. But lack of experience will certainly lose you them.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Experience doesn't win you games. But lack of experience will certainly lose you them.

I'll take that as their experience was absolutely worthless when getting blown off the pitch by Wales, England, NZ. Glad we cleared that up. Not entirely sure why we should expect any different this 6N.

The Rape of Lucretia

People need to stop falling for the coaching line that they will select on form. All coaches say it. Its correct that they do - it carrots players who are not established squad players that if they show form they will be included, and sticks those in the squad that they need to play up and not be comfortable that their position in the squad is assumed. But that doesnt mean they mean it. They select on who they thing is most likely to win for them. And past achievements and estimated overall potential if they played to their best, are more indicative of performance than form (which tends to be against weaker opposition). So they dont really select on form. People should not be surprised at the exclusion of Rudds and Big Stu. They have both only been intermittent bit part players for years, and are not suddenly going to turn into world class players at their ages.

Gutted at the Sexto captaincy though. It will crash and burn.

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'll take that as their experience was absolutely worthless when getting blown off the pitch by Wales, England, NZ. Glad we cleared that up. Not entirely sure why we should expect any different this 6N.

Yeah. That's how it works alright.

Buer

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm going to go for more than McCloskey has.

Surprisingly, he hasn't. Ruddock has never started a 6N match whilst McCloskey has. As FF said, he's been thereabouts for a long time without ever breaking in. They could just see the spot being better used on a young player who could potentially be a long term starter.

Interested Observer

Buer wrote: »

Surprisingly, he hasn't. Ruddock has never started a 6N match whilst McCloskey has. As FF said, he's been thereabouts for a long time without ever breaking in. They could just see the spot being better used on a young player who could potentially be a long term starter.

That is quite surprising.

molloyjh

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What a massive disappointment.

Same as Schmidt.

What the hell is Toner coming back in for? Need to build for the world cup. Sexton getting the captaincy is another Joe like call.

Not a very brave start from Andy, very very conservative. Dave Kearney another who shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.

Brings back Toner. Apparently is the same as the guy who dropped Toner. Of course....

The Rape of Lucretia

molloyjh wrote: »

Brings back Toner. Apparently is the same as the guy who dropped Toner. Of course....

Two of the guys ahead of him are injured. So does it not make sense ?

Interested Observer

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Two of the guys ahead of him are injured. So does it not make sense ?

There aren't two players ahead of Toner. He has actually played himself back into the squad.

salmocab

Interested Observer wrote: »

There aren't two players ahead of Toner. He has actually played himself back into the squad.

Look who your replying to

joseywhales

Surely, if we learned anything from the world cup year, it's to be consistent with the mantra of focussing on the next game, next tournament. And the importance of maintaining momentum. We have to beat Scotland.

car_radio19834

molloyjh wrote: »

Brings back Toner. Apparently is the same as the guy who dropped Toner. Of course....

Huh? Who said that?

And it's not like he had nothign to do with the side...he was in the management team!

Toner is not going to be at the next WC.

Even ****ing France are building for the world cup. It's the same thing. We might win a 6 nations and everyone will be jizzing themselves and then the Englands and Wales will peak world cup year and achieve something.

sydthebeat

Absolutely no point planning for a RWC until at least two years out.... Preferably 18 months out.

Clegg

There's nothing wrong with selecting players who won't be around for the next world cup. If you're playing well in your position you'll be selected and can contribute to the development of the rest of the squad.

prawnsambo

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Even ****ing France are building for the world cup. It's the same thing. We might win a 6 nations and everyone will be jizzing themselves and then the Englands and Wales will peak world cup year and achieve something.

Absolutely no point in comparing France with Ireland. Apart from the fact that they have far more to choose from, they've named a 42 man squad which will get split up and sent back to play for their clubs during every break and will be the usual mess while the coach works out what his best matchday squad is. Which he won't. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

aloooof

prawnsambo wrote: »

Absolutely no point in comparing France with Ireland. Apart from the fact that they have far more to choose from, they've named a 42 man squad which will get split up and sent back to play for their clubs during every break and will be the usual mess while the coach works out what his best matchday squad is. Which he won't. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Did they not change that 1-2 seasons ago, where the squad now stays together for the duration of the 6 Nations, and they don't return to their clubs in the off weeks?

prawnsambo

aloooof wrote: »

Did they not change that 1-2 seasons ago, where the squad now stays together for the duration of the 6 Nations, and they don't return to their clubs in the off weeks?

Not that I'm aware of, but happy to stand corrected if that's the case.

Edit: Not quite the case apparently. New agreement sees 14 players released to their clubs on the Thursday after training in a 6N week. So basically the national squad retains 28 players after the squad is selected, but loses the rest.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Stretching it a bit there FF I think...

In reality, Henshaw is in that squad purely because he's been in previous squads.

Farrell claims it's a squad based on form, blatantly nonsense, but more fool anyone expecting a coach to say anything different. You also cannot expect huge changes to a squad instantly, but the centre, 12 particularly, has been an area of weakness for Ireland and I am more than a little disappointed to see we're continuing with the same faces.

Henshaw is a proven test level player. He's not on fire but I don't accept he's playing badly enough to be dropped.

It is a squad based on form. Burns, Cooney, Deegan, Doris, Kelleher, JOD, Heffernan and O'Toole have no international pedigree. They are there based on nothing except form. Toner and McGrath were previously discarded and have fought their way back in.

It is as much a squad picked on form as anyone could reasonably expect. It was never going to 100% please everyone.

molloyjh

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Huh? Who said that?

And it's not like he had nothign to do with the side...he was in the management team!

Toner is not going to be at the next WC.

Even ****ing France are building for the world cup. It's the same thing. We might win a 6 nations and everyone will be jizzing themselves and then the Englands and Wales will peak world cup year and achieve something.

The RWC is another 3 1/2 years away. You dont throw the baby out with the bathwater from the off. You evolve over time. Any country with an ounce of sense does that. And theres simply no way in hell anyone should be using France as a yardstick for how to select squads. They've been ballsing that up for about a decade now while we've been winning 6Ns titles.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

Henshaw is a proven test level player. He's not on fire but I don't accept he's playing badly enough to be dropped.

It is a squad based on form. Burns, Cooney, Deegan, Doris, Kelleher, JOD, Heffernan and O'Toole have no international pedigree. They are there based on nothing except form. Toner and McGrath were previously discarded and have fought their way back in.

It is as much a squad picked on form as anyone could reasonably expect. It was never going to 100% please everyone.

This is where we are though. If it isnt 100% "right" then its melodrama and moaning. The fact that so may young lads and guys who were outside the set-up just a few short months ago have been included is irrelevant apparently.

Ruddock and McCloskey can feel hard done by, but there isnt room for everyone. And had they been selected, then the guys excluded would be in those shoes instead. It's actually a really positive squad and I'm a bit disheartened that so few can see their way to recognising that.

prawnsambo

Whingeing about the squad or whatever omission or inclusion that people may have issues with, is largely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I'm much more interested in how they play. There's always something that people will get hysterical about. Can't understand it tbh. It's hardly life or death stuff.

aloooof

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Huh? Who said that?

And it's not like he had nothign to do with the side...he was in the management team!

Toner is not going to be at the next WC.

Even ****ing France are building for the world cup. It's the same thing. We might win a 6 nations and everyone will be jizzing themselves and then the Englands and Wales will peak world cup year and achieve something.

We heard after the RWC that the players and coaches built it up too much, had too much of a focus on it and that affected them. It seems to me if you pick a squad for the 6 Nations with the RWC in mind, you're only going to make that even worse.

We're even after a RWC where the winners changed their coach 2 years out. I don't get this massive rush that some are advocating.