Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Trevorclever

molloyjh wrote: »

I get the point you are trying to make, but even against weak opposition he was a stand out. And then rest of my point was around all his other appearances. The guy is in very good form, performing as well as anyone selected and better in some cases. And every time hes been asked to step up to Test level hes done so and performed well. Unless you can dispute any of this (and I cant see how you can) then it's hard to conclude anything other than him being hard done by. Especially when one of the guys ahead of him has struggled for form at any level for over a year.

What teams has he started against in the the world cup and 6 nations?

Trevorclever

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Come off it. McCloskey, Henshaw and Aki are all pretty similar type players. The only decision there is which ones do you prefer and which are in form. I personally think McCloskey should be picked in the squad, but to claim he's a massively different player to the other two is stretching things just a little.

Ruddock is 29, Stander is also 29 and POM is 30. Of those three players, Ruddock is in form, and the others are not.

We haven't seen offloading at the level of McCloskey from the other two as regularly. So Ruddock is a similar age to the others but has started how many 6 nations games?

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Henshaw is a proven test level player. He's not on fire but I don't accept he's playing badly enough to be dropped.

It is a squad based on form. Burns, Cooney, Deegan, Doris, Kelleher, JOD, Heffernan and O'Toole have no international pedigree. They are there based on nothing except form. Toner and McGrath were previously discarded and have fought their way back in.

It is as much a squad picked on form as anyone could reasonably expect. It was never going to 100% please everyone.

I disagree, I think he has offered very little for quite a while now. Henshaw is a proven test player yes, but when was the last time he put in a notable performance at that level? 2018 six nations probably.

12 is my only real gripe about that squad. Hard to see how it's a selection based on form.

I wouldn't overly care except that 12 has been a problematic area for Ireland.

On another note I do not understand why O'Toole has been selected.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

I disagree, I think he has offered very little for quite a while now. Henshaw is a proven test player yes, but when was the last time he put in a notable performance at that level? 2018 six nations probably.

12 is my only real gripe about that squad. Hard to see how it's a selection based on form.

I wouldn't overly care except that 12 has been a problematic area for Ireland.

On another note I do not understand why O'Toole has been selected.

After the warm up game against Wales in September everyone was calling for Ringrose to be dropped in favor of Henshaw based on his performance that day.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

After the warm up game against Wales in September everyone was calling for Ringrose to be dropped in favor of Henshaw based on his performance that day.

The warm up game? Really?

Anyway, no point going on about it. Farrell will sink or swim on the results and how the team plays, if the same old problems emerge at 12 then all he's doing is making a rod for his own back.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

I disagree, I think he has offered very little for quite a while now. Henshaw is a proven test player yes, but when was the last time he put in a notable performance at that level? 2018 six nations probably.

12 is my only real gripe about that squad. Hard to see how it's a selection based on form.

I wouldn't overly care except that 12 has been a problematic area for Ireland.

On another note I do not understand why O'Toole has been selected.

If 12 is problematic for Ireland then your anger is misdirected. Henshaw hasn't really played 12 at all since Aki qualified. He's either been injured or at 13

O'Toole is benefitting from the cull of mid level guys above a certain age. The same way Deegan, JOD and Doris are ahead of Ruddock and Murphy, it looks to me like they said there is more long term merit in O'Toole than Moore or John Ryan.

Neil3030

Squidgy Black wrote: »

You have to feel bad for Andy in some respects.

Names 5 uncapped players, brings in a cohort of players who were given token caps in summer games and are playing well like JOD and Heffernan, and names 4 young lads as development players to bring into the setup.

But is still being called conservative and just like Joe.

Who himself was the least conservative selector in Irish rugby history.

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

The warm up game? Really?

Anyway, no point going on about it. Farrell will sink or swim on the results and how the team plays, if the same old problems emerge at 12 then all he's doing is making a rod for his own back.

Was it not an international test match?

Dave_The_Sheep

Trevorclever wrote: »

We haven't seen offloading at the level of McCloskey from the other two as regularly. So Ruddock is a similar age to the others but has started how many 6 nations games?

So you're discounting Ruddock (5) because he hasn't gotten as many 6N caps as Stander (31) or POM (31), and ignoring form...

... But you're touting McCloskey as he's the form player being able to offload, as if the others can't, but ignoring that Henshaw (18) and Aki (10) have more 6N caps than he has (1).

Solid logic.

The Rape of Lucretia

stephen_n wrote: »

Was it not an international test match?

It was a friendly.

Faugheen

awec wrote: »

The warm up game? Really?

Yes, really. There was a myth going around here that Ringrose’s form dropped off a cliff based on one or two sub-par games.

Disappointed Ruddock isn’t in the squad. If Farrell has really told him to step it up to another level, I’d be wondering what on Earth he has to do.

Anyway. I’ll be supporting whatever team is put out against Scotland. It is what it is.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

If 12 is problematic for Ireland then your anger is misdirected. Henshaw hasn't really played 12 at all since Aki qualified. He's either been injured or at 13

O'Toole is benefitting from the cull of mid level guys above a certain age. The same way Deegan, JOD and Doris are ahead of Ruddock and Murphy, it looks to me like they said there is more long term merit in O'Toole than Moore or John Ryan.

My frustration isn't at Henshaw specifically, it's at 12 in general. In fact, I am not even bothered that Henshaw is selected. He's on a central deal, so is Aki with his big fat new 3 year one, no way they aren't included.

My gripe is that it's supposedly selected on form, but the actual form player will be sitting watching on the telly, while players who are definitely not in form are picking up caps.

awec

Faugheen wrote: »

Yes, really. There was a myth going around here that Ringrose’s form dropped off a cliff based on one or two sub-par games.

Disappointed Ruddock isn’t in the squad. If Farrell has really told him to step it up to another level, I’d be wondering what on Earth he has to do.

Anyway. I’ll be supporting whatever team is put out against Scotland. It is what it is.

Nobody is talking about Ringrose though. His place is without question, he's in excellent form.

awec

On another note, more Ulster players than Munster players in the overall squad. When was the last time that happened for a Six Nations?

Trevorclever

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

So you're discounting Ruddock (5) because he hasn't gotten as many 6N caps as Stander (31) or POM (31), and ignoring form...

... But you're touting McCloskey as he's the form player being able to offload, as if the others can't, but ignoring that Henshaw (18) and Aki (10) have more 6N caps than he has (1).

Solid logic.

No, I'm discounting Ruddock because he's not international class.

And I'm touting McCloskey because he gives us something the other 12's can't match.

Very solid logic.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

The warm up game? Really?

Anyway, no point going on about it. Farrell will sink or swim on the results and how the team plays, if the same old problems emerge at 12 then all he's doing is making a rod for his own back.

Hang on, 12 has been a problem? Since when? All your complaints last year were about 9 & 10. But as FF has pointed out, Henshaw hasnt actually played at 12 since 5he 2017 6Ns. Injury has left him watching on from the sidelines or playing 13. I think he only has 2 or 3 caps at 12 since the 2017 6Ns.

You've said a couple of the things about this today that just dont really with reality. Apparently Henshaw was one of the worst performers in the RWC despite the fact he only played in 1 game where he wasnt the worst performer on the day. Now hes been part of an ongoing problem at 12 that I certainly have no recollection of people discussing despite the fact he has barely played at 12 in the last few years. Is it possible you're shaping your narrative to suit your position on McCloskey?

EDIT: Just saw your latest post so most of the above is moot. I'm still confused about this problem at 12 that has never really come up before though...

Dave_The_Sheep

Ruddock isn't international class. Right.

There ends that discussion.

phily2002

McCloskey very unlucky. Think Marshall is really unlucky as well, he's been a lot better than Farrell who was badly exposed at the weekend. I'd have Ruddock over POM whose been bang average for a while.
Scannel should have been in, don't see what he's done to be dropped.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Hang on, 12 has been a problem? Since when? All your complaints last year were about 9 & 10. But as FF has pointed out, Henshaw hasnt actually played at 12 since 5he 2017 6Ns. Injury has left him watching on from the sidelines or playing 13. I think he only has 2 or 3 caps at 12 since the 2017 6Ns.

You've said a couple of the things about this today that just dont really with reality. Apparently Henshaw was one of the worst performers in the RWC despite the fact he only played in 1 game where he wasnt the worst performer on the day. Now hes been part of an ongoing problem at 12 that I certainly have no recollection of people discussing despite the fact he has barely played at 12 in the last few years. Is it possible you're shaping your narrative to suit your position on McCloskey?

EDIT: Just saw your latest post so most of the above is moot. I'm still confused about this problem at 12 that has never really come up before though...

No they weren't. Go back and re-read, 12 comes up consistently. Not just by me.

Henshaw played 1 game at the World Cup. He was completely and utterly crap. Of all the performances by any player at the RWC, his was potentially the worst of all. Does this not make him one of the worst? I guess we could just pretend it never happened?

Faugheen

By the way, with the real lack of experience at hooker, I think it’s nailed on that POM starts to give them a secure line out platform along with Toner.

Trevorclever

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Ruddock isn't international class. Right.

There ends that discussion.

He's been around for a decade, he's not been deemed good enough to start any 6 nations games. Or maybe 1? I think that tells the story.

molloyjh

Trevorclever wrote: »

No, I'm discounting Ruddock because he's not international class.

And I'm touting McCloskey because he gives us something the other 12's can't match.

Very solid logic.

So a guy who is one of the best players for the best club in Europe, who has delivered at every level he has ever played at is not international standard. However a guy who is one of the best players for a club not quite as good, who has struggled to step up to Test level in the past, is international standard.

As I said, of course....

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

So a guy who is one of the best players for the best club in Europe, who has delivered at every level he has ever played at is not international standard. However a guy who is one of the best players for a club not quite as good, who has struggled to step up to Test level in the past, is international standard.

As I said, of course....

Ah here.

Ruddock is not one of Leinster's best players, and McCloskey has got 1 chance and even then he was thrown to the wolves by being hauled off early.

molloyjh

Trevorclever wrote: »

He's been around for a decade, he's not been deemed good enough to start any 6 nations games. Or maybe 1? I think that tells the story.

Of course you're happy to use that very same logic re McCloskey, right? How many 6Ns starts does he have? What teams has he played against for Ireland? Surely if Rhys can be discounted on that logic, then so can McCloskey, right?

awec

phily2002 wrote: »

McCloskey very unlucky. Think Cave is really unlucky as well, he's been a lot better than Farrell who was badly exposed at the weekend. I'd have Ruddock over POM whose been bang average for a while.
Scannel should have been in, don't see what he's done to be dropped.

Not sure Darren Cave would have the fitness levels to play test rugby at this stage...

Trevorclever

molloyjh wrote: »

So a guy who is one of the best players for the best club in Europe, who has delivered at every level he has ever played at is not international standard. However a guy who is one of the best players for a club not quite as good, who has struggled to step up to Test level in the past, is international standard.

As I said, of course....

He's been on squads for over a decade and now he's been unceremoniously dumped. He's had plenty of chances to impress the coaches and has failed. What club he plays for is irrelevant.
McCloskey deserves a chance to prove himself. His game could be lethal at international level and just what we need.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Ah here.

Ruddock is not one of Leinster's best players, and McCloskey has got 1 chance and even then he was thrown to the wolves by being hauled off early.

Rhys absolutely is one of our best players. And McCloskey was taken off because he played badly in that game. Which was 1 of 3 caps.

AbusesToilets

Trevorclever wrote: »

He's been around for a decade, he's not been deemed good enough to start any 6 nations games. Or maybe 1? I think that tells the story.

We're going to ignore his awful injury timing then? Your points are bad and you should feel badly.

Trevorclever

molloyjh wrote: »

Of course you're happy to use that very same logic re McCloskey, right? How many 6Ns starts does he have? What teams has he played against for Ireland? Surely if Rhys can be discounted on that logic, then so can McCloskey, right?

That's not the reason he's been dumped, it's because he's not good enough. I'm using the point that he hasn't been selected to show that the coaches agree. He's been on squads for over a decade!
McCloskey hasn't been given the same opportunities and is younger.

sydthebeat

Faugheen wrote: »

By the way, with the real lack of experience at hooker, I think it’s nailed on that POM starts to give them a secure line out platform along with Toner.

Deegan at 8 provides enough alternative to the second rows.
Move stander to 6