Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Jump_In_Jack

At this point could hazard a guess at the squad pecking order.

LH: Healy, Kilcoyne, McGrath
HK: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan
TH: Furlong, Porter, O'Toole
LK: Ryan, Henderson, Toner, Dillane, Baird
OF: Van der Flier, Connors
BF/No.8: Stander, O'Mahony, Doris, Deegan, O'Donoghue
SH: Murray, Cooney, McGrath
OH: Sexton, R.Byrne, Burns, H.Byrne
CE: Ringrose, Aki, Henshaw, Farrell
B3: Larmour, Stockdale, Earls, Conway, Addison, D.Kearney, Baloucoune.

So likely matchday 23 could be:
Healy, Herring, Furlong,
Ryan, Henderson,
O'Mahony, Stander, Van der Flier,
Murray, Sexton,
Aki, Ringrose,
Stockdale, Larmour, Earls.

Replacements: Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Porter, Dillane, O'Donoghue, Cooney, Burns, Addison.

My thinking about the replacements is that once the 15 starters are selected, the bench is more about impact and covering various positions, so it wouldn't always follow that the next in line to start in specific positions will automatically go onto the bench.

Still a good few positions there that are difficult to call, especially in the subs.

salmocab

I think there will be a change in the back row for Scotland. I’d guess at Stander, VDF and Deegan

kilns

Trevorclever wrote: »

He's been injured for every 6 nations and world cup for a decade? O'Mahony isn't on great form but has far more ability to Ruddock. I think Beirne at 6 when he's fit could be the way forward.

ability to avoid making tackles and carrying the ball then you are right

irelandrover

kilns wrote: »

ability to avoid making tackles and carrying the ball then you are right

What does it say about Ruddock that he cant get passed a guy who doesn't carry or tackle?

Jump_In_Jack

salmocab wrote: »

I think there will be a change in the back row for Scotland. I’d guess at Stander, VDF and Deegan

I hope so.

Also I hope we start with Cooney at 9 and Conway at 14.

kilns

irelandrover wrote: »

What does it say about Ruddock that he cant get passed a guy who doesn't carry or tackle?

It says something about the coach who picks the players, if any other international team picked a 6 who goes through a match hardly making a tackle or carrying the ball, we on this forum would be making fun of them

2020Vision

kilns wrote: »

It says something about the coach who picks the players, if any other international team picked a 6 who goes through a match hardly making a tackle or carrying the ball, we on this forum would be making fun of them

Every international rugby team needs a good scowler to intimidate the ref.

aloooof

awec wrote: »

POM is not very good at stealing ball.

The pre-RWC stats suggest otherwise tho; I posted this from August, which had turnover stats since Jan 2016.

Some interesting stats from August, which work out as 1.1 turnovers per game. If you convert that to Turnovers per 80 mins, he comes 4th on that list, ahead of Hooper, Cane and Ardie Savea.

He's also among the best defensive lineout jumpers in the world.

He's our biggest turnover threat and I think that's what differentiates him from the others in the squad. Ruddock does everything to a very high level, but I wouldn't say he's among the best in the world at anything.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it not far, far more likely that the guy who was man of the match in one of the biggest wins in the history of Irish rugby suffered a loss of form due to the same reasons that affected almost everyone else in the entire squad?

Seems infinitely more likely to me, he’s not that old. I wouldn’t put a return to form past him at all.

His form had been poor through 2018 too, there were question marks there which the performance against the All Blacks dismissed for a while. POM’s form for both club and country has been poor for more than 12 months now. 30 is relatively old considering he plays in the most attritional position on the pitch and his style of play attracts a lot of hits.

I wouldn’t put a return to form past him either or Murray. Is the international stage the place to find form though?

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

The pre-RWC stats suggest otherwise tho; I posted this from August, which had turnover stats since Jan 2016.



He's also among the best defensive lineout jumpers in the world.

He's our biggest turnover threat and I think that's what differentiates him from the others in the squad. Ruddock does everything to a very high level, but I wouldn't say he's among the best in the world at anything.

Its like saying Robbie Keane was our greatest goal scorer but he hasnt been in years and the same applies here.

In reality it will all depend on how Farrell will play, if we persist with the way we were playing then it will suit POM as its a slow attritional game but if we are to modernise and play a more expansive skills based game (see Leinster) then POM is certainly not required as he is too slow and does not have the skillset for this type of game

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Unlike other players who have suffered a similar loss in form he hasn't exactly been pulling up trees for his province though.

I don't disagree with the general premise - declaring him "past it" is ridiculously over the top but whatever is affecting him is more than the Irish squad malaise.

There have been others in that position, where they loss form at all levels and rediscovered it at the highest level. The most obvious example being BOD. Rob Kearney was the same for a while.

As long as POM is a regular for Ireland then that’s where his focus is going to be. And people are obviously forgetting just how good he is. If it’s himself, VDF and Stander people will complain but that’s a top class back row (although I’d love to see Conan for Stander if he was fit, I think that’ll be a real possibility later this year)

thomond2006

I'm surprised Baloucoune is only a development player, I would have thought he is much further in his development than the others selected.

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

Its like saying Robbie Keane was our greatest goal scorer but he hasnt been in years and the same applies here.

In reality it will all depend on how Farrell will play, if we persist with the way we were playing then it will suit POM as its a slow attritional game but if we are to modernise and play a more expansive skills based game (see Leinster) then POM is certainly not required as he is too slow and does not have the skillset for this type of game

It really doesn't. He still had a good number of turnovers and lineout steals during the RWC. (I'll get hammered here, but I actually thought he had a good RWC; Jamie Heaslip name-checked him as one of our better players prior to the NZ game).

He's not in the best form (and fwiw, I still don't think he'll start) but do you really think Ruddock offers a similar turnover threat to him?

car_radio19834

Could well be wrong but I don't see any major change from under Joe.

I would put good money on Aki starting at 12 as the battering ram. Would be nice to have a no.12 with a step or ability to make a linebreak.

Former Former

Whether POM is rubbish or not is a separate discussion to Ruddock being excluded, I think that's worth noting. POM hasn't been preferred over Ruddock, Ruddock has been ditched to make way for younger guys.

evil_seed

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Could well be wrong but I don't see any major change from under Joe.

I would put good money on Aki starting at 12 as the battering ram. Would be nice to have a no.12 with a step or ability to make a linebreak.

Henshaw is the battering ram at 12. Bundee has a bit more finesse to his game than you might think

Buer

I'm a big fan of Ruddock but I can understand the decision on reflection. He's an exceptionally solid player. He puts in a very solid shift always, makes his tackles, some hard carries and clears rucks.

But I don't think it's wrong to suggest he is not a particularly strong candidate to be part of the Irish team into the future. He's not known for having games where he comes up with a few game changing moments such as turnovers (breakdown or set piece), massive line breaking carries, momentum changing tackles where he drives the carrier right back etc. He's 30 this year so he's not going to suddenly transform into a player who does these things with any consistency. He's a tighthead lock trapped in the body of a blindside. Lads like JOD, Doris and Deegan could become those players.

Someone like POM has been this player in the past too. It's doubtful whether he can be this player again but you can understand the value in having him around the squad given it's generally accepted he's a key figure in the camp even if he's not in the 23. Farrell needs guys there who will galvanise the squad and set standards and expectations for new lads.

AdamD

Former Former wrote: »

Whether POM is rubbish or not is a separate discussion to Ruddock being excluded, I think that's worth noting. POM hasn't been preferred over Ruddock, Ruddock has been ditched to make way for younger guys.

People say this when every squad is picked and it baffles me. 2 young guys were picked over Ruddock yes, but so was POM. You can't just seperate it. POM, a 6 was picked and Ruddock, also a 6, was not.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

Whether POM is rubbish or not is a separate discussion to Ruddock being excluded, I think that's worth noting. POM hasn't been preferred over Ruddock, Ruddock has been ditched to make way for younger guys.

Thats a little bit of a stretch. POM is the only member of the squad that plays 6 with any regularity. The young lads have been playing at 8 predominantly with JOD playing at 7. POM is the one in most direct competition with Ruddock. It's the obvious comparison. Now I agree with the likes of alooof & Buer about the logic behind the selection, but it really is a case of POM ahead of Ruddock IMO.

whatawaster

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm surprised Baloucoune is only a development player, I would have thought he is much further in his development than the others selected.

I'd agree, and Connors also stands out from that list, given that he was part of the stocktake. Baloucoune is definitely a player I'd like to see brought on tour next summer

kilns

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a little bit of a stretch. POM is the only member of the squad that plays 6 with any regularity. The young lads have been playing at 8 predominantly with JOD playing at 7. POM is the one in most direct competition with Ruddock. It's the obvious comparison. Now I agree with the likes of alooof & Buer about the logic behind the selection, but it really is a case of POM ahead of Ruddock IMO.

Does it not smack of being very conservative however? A guy who on form does not deserve to be in the squad and is basically only there on reputation alone picked ahead of a guy who is shooting the lights out playing the same position for the best team in Europe

Bazzo

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Could well be wrong but I don't see any major change from under Joe.

I would put good money on Aki starting at 12 as the battering ram. Would be nice to have a no.12 with a step or ability to make a linebreak.

Is this the same Bundee Aki that's beaten 11 defenders and made 3 clean breaks in the last 3 games he's played?

aloooof

AdamD wrote: »

People say this when every squad is picked and it baffles me. 2 young guys were picked over Ruddock yes, but so was POM. You can't just seperate it. POM, a 6 was picked and Ruddock, also a 6, was not.

kilns wrote: »

Does it not smack of being very conservative however? A guy who on form does not deserve to be in the squad and is basically only there on reputation alone picked ahead of a guy who is shooting the lights out playing the same position for the best team in Europe

It's not that simple, tho. While they both play 6, they have very different skill sets.

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

It's not that simple, tho. While they both play 6, they have very different skill sets.

Leinster are the best team in Europe and play good rugby and arguably would be up there to win the six nations if they played it in themselves.

Would POM get in that team?

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There have been others in that position, where they loss form at all levels and rediscovered it at the highest level. The most obvious example being BOD. Rob Kearney was the same for a while.

Sure, but that's not really relevant to your original point. I don't think it is far more likely that the same thing that affected the rest of the squad is what POM is struggling with, because they rest of the squad have not carried through the same lack of form to their provincial teams in the way that POM has.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

As long as POM is a regular for Ireland then that’s where his focus is going to be. And people are obviously forgetting just how good he is. If it’s himself, VDF and Stander people will complain but that’s a top class back row

People are forgetting how good he can be because he has not displayed it in quite a long time. Of course he may recover his form, but if he continues to play as he has for the last year then no, that is not a top class back row.

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats a little bit of a stretch. POM is the only member of the squad that plays 6 with any regularity. The young lads have been playing at 8 predominantly with JOD playing at 7. POM is the one in most direct competition with Ruddock. It's the obvious comparison. Now I agree with the likes of alooof & Buer about the logic behind the selection, but it really is a case of POM ahead of Ruddock IMO.

AdamD wrote: »

People say this when every squad is picked and it baffles me. 2 young guys were picked over Ruddock yes, but so was POM. You can't just seperate it. POM, a 6 was picked and Ruddock, also a 6, was not.

Anyone who really thought that POM wasn't going to be named yesterday was absolutely delusional. No other word for it.

So POM is in the squad. You then decide who else you're going to pick.

Now the choice is the 29 year old who's been knocking around for years without making a breakthrough, or the young buck who might go on to win 70 or 80 caps.

This squad is littered with those calls and they all went the way of the young fellas. Its exactly what we have all been crying out for.

But POM vs Ruddock was a decision that existed only on boards.ie. He was never going to displace POM. It's like saying Sexton is keeping out Carty.

prawnsambo

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Could well be wrong but I don't see any major change from under Joe.

I would put good money on Aki starting at 12 as the battering ram. Would be nice to have a no.12 with a step or ability to make a linebreak.

Yes. You could well be wrong.

Making predictions about how Ireland will play under Andy Farrell is the equivalent of leading with your chin in a heavyweight boxing match.

Brief_Lives

kilns wrote: »

Leinster are the best team in Europe and play good rugby and arguably would be up there to win the six nations if they played it in themselves.

Would POM get in that team?

Stop clogging up the thread with your waffle.
You made your point.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

Anyone who really thought that POM wasn't going to be named yesterday was absolutely delusional. No other word for it.

I never thought he wouldn't be named. But I don't really think that's necessarily a good thing.

kilns

Former Former wrote: »

Anyone who really thought that POM wasn't going to be named yesterday was absolutely delusional. No other word for it.

So POM is in the squad. You then decide who else you're going to pick.

Now the choice is the 29 year old who's been knocking around for years without making a breakthrough, or the young buck who might go on to win 70 or 80 caps.

This squad is littered with those calls and they all went the way of the young fellas. Its exactly what we have all been crying out for.

But POM vs Ruddock was a decision that existed only on boards.ie. He was never going to displace POM. It's like saying Sexton is keeping out Carty.

Explain why he was never going to displace him

and the second part of your sentence is ridiculous