Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

kilns

Brief_Lives wrote: »

Stop clogging up the thread with your waffle.
You made your point.

I will continue to make reasonable balanced arguments sorry if you are not smart enough to distinguish that from waffle.

aloooof

Fwiw, I actually think POM's poor form is being over-played. I thought he was far poorer during the 6 Nations last season than he was during the RWC and since his return. He's still affecting lineout and jackal turnovers, which is what he's being picked for. I can't remember which game, but he had 3 lineout steals and 3 jackals in one game alone.

The following is from Gerry Thornley's piece after the Saracens game in Thomond:

it was recorded as one of the 10 lineouts Munster retained off their dozen throws, while pinching four of Saracens’ 13.

Unusually, almost every throw was contested, making the lineout the key battle within the war, with Munster captain O’Mahony a key figure.

In the heel of the hunt, Mark McCall admitted: “Fair play to Munster, their defensive lineout probably won them the game.”

His carrying and passing could be a lot better but that's not what he's in the team to do.

Ruddock doesn't have the same skillset. He lost out to the likes of Deegan, Doris and JOD. You could add Stander to that list too. That's the reality.

In any case, I've made my point so I'm going to leave it at that.

Riskymove

This discussion is only the latest example of "Boards knows better"

Whatever your views on POM vs Ruddock, the basic truth is that it appears we now have a third straight Ireland coaching ticket going back 10 years that does not particularly rate Ruddock as a first choice. It is not like some Irish stalwart has been dropped and I think it is just an excuse to rant about POM tbh


My own view is that Conan's injury is what kept POM in the first XV but I certainly couldn't see him being dropped from any 35 man training squad at present in any event

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

Fwiw, I actually think POM's poor form is being over-played. I thought he was far poorer during the 6 Nations last season than he was during the RWC and since his return. He's still affecting lineout and jackal turnovers, which is what he's being picked for. I can't remember which game, but he had 3 lineout steals and 3 jackals in one game alone.

The following is from Gerry Thornley's piece after the Saracens game in Thomond:



His carrying and passing could be a lot better but that's not what he's in the team to do.

Ruddock doesn't have the same skillset. He lost out to the likes of Deegan, Doris and JOD. You could add Stander to that list too. That's the reality.

Thornley loves that heel of the hunt phrase

He is great at those two things I agree but we need more I feel, Stander has been exposed carrying too much when he lines up with VDF and POM beside him. We need more impact going forward as the last 2 years have been painful to watch I am sure you would agree. Doris and Deegan do show alot of promise, with CJ moving to 6 it could give a better attacking dynamic to the team

AdamD

Former Former wrote: »

Anyone who really thought that POM wasn't going to be named yesterday was absolutely delusional. No other word for it.

So POM is in the squad. You then decide who else you're going to pick.

Now the choice is the 29 year old who's been knocking around for years without making a breakthrough, or the young buck who might go on to win 70 or 80 caps.

This squad is littered with those calls and they all went the way of the young fellas. Its exactly what we have all been crying out for.

But POM vs Ruddock was a decision that existed only on boards.ie. He was never going to displace POM. It's like saying Sexton is keeping out Carty.

You've moved the goal posts. He was still picked ahead of Ruddock. Whether I agree with that isn't the argument, you began by saying POM wasn't picked instead of Ruddock. He was, saying anything else is mental gymnastics.

prawnsambo

Riskymove wrote: »

My own view is that Conan's injury is what kept POM in the first XV but I certainly couldn't see him being dropped from any 35 man training squad at present in any event

Assuming Conan would displace Stander to 6 and therefore POM loses out? Because it looks like Doris and Deegan are being tested to replace Conan while he's injured, but not to the point where they would be considered good enough to bank on them being able to create that reshuffle in the back row.

Former Former

AdamD wrote: »

You've moved the goal posts. He was still picked ahead of Ruddock. Whether I agree with that isn't the argument, you began by saying POM wasn't picked instead of Ruddock. He was, saying anything else is mental gymnastics.

I haven't moved anything. POM was always going to be picked. The decision was Ruddock or young guys. I don't see why this is so difficult to accept or why people are so upset about it.

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

Does it not smack of being very conservative however? A guy who on form does not deserve to be in the squad and is basically only there on reputation alone picked ahead of a guy who is shooting the lights out playing the same position for the best team in Europe

Given the number of calls that went the way of younger guys, an element of conservatism isnt necessarily a bad thing. There are really only 2 selection calls in a 36 man squad that could really be cause for debate. In a squad with an very definite move towards youth thats good going. And as I've said elsewhere, you need to build your foundations from something.

kilns

Former Former wrote: »

I haven't moved anything. POM was always going to be picked. The decision was Ruddock or young guys. I don't see why this is so difficult to accept or why people are so upset about it.

The young guys picked are mostly 7s and 8s

Riskymove

prawnsambo wrote: »

Assuming Conan would displace Stander to 6 and therefore POM loses out? .

yes I believe that is where it was going prior to Conan's injury

If Deegan or other develops well then that is still what may happen. I certainly think it is the more likely reason for POM not to be selected than to be dropped for Ruddock

Riskymove

kilns wrote: »

The young guys picked are mostly 7s and 8s

IMO the fact that a few young players were selected in the 35 man squad meant it was even more unlikely to drop someone as experienced as POM

Let's see what the actual XV selected for the game is...

prawnsambo

Riskymove wrote: »

yes I believe that is where it was going prior to Conan's injury

If Deegan or other develops well then that is still what may happen. I certainly think it is the more likely reason for POM not to be selected than to be dropped for Ruddock

Thanks. It was a great pity that Conan got injured because that back row looked like being a very good balance. I suspect that idea is still in the frame and why the two lads were selected. And POM being selected if the lads can't step up and they have to revert to the usual back row. Or just to keep that option open.

Mr Tickle

As someone said earlier POM's poor form has been way overblown. We've been found lacking a bit of go-forward ball but i'd point out that that's at least in part down to having VDF over Sean O'Brien or Jordi Murphy. When they were there to do more of the carrying Pete was seen as a lineout threat and a nuisance at the breakdown (his stats have been linked to elsewhere).

I'm kinda glad only one of Ruddock and Pete were picked. It's unlikely (not impossible)that either will be the best 6 come the next WC. Ruddock is playing better at the moment.

It's been mentioned that Pete might be there to help in new Hookers. Same with Toner. I'd also say that those might be two of the best guys to train your line out against.

Clegg

Mr Tickle wrote: »

As someone said earlier POM's poor form has been way overblown. We've been found lacking a bit of go-forward ball but i'd point out that that's at least in part down to having VDF over Sean O'Brien or Jordi Murphy. When they were there to do more of the carrying Pete was seen as a lineout threat and a nuisance at the breakdown (his stats have been linked to elsewhere).

I'm kinda glad only one of Ruddock and Pete were picked. It's unlikely (not impossible)that either will be the best 6 come the next WC. Ruddock is playing better at the moment.

It's been mentioned that Pete might be there to help in new Hookers. Same with Toner. I'd also say that those might be two of the best guys to train your line out against.

These issues would have been present no matter who was there. VdF is a better carrier than Murphy and SOB's final season with Ireland/Leinster showed that he wasn't up to the task of masking deficiencies in the backrow. He couldn't keep up with teh speed or physicality of test rugby. His body is shot.

The bigger issue I have with PoM is that his work around the pitch isn't anywhere near enough. He's a luxury player at the moment.

realhorrorshow

I'd like to see the following vs Scotland

6. Stander - can't recall him having a bad game for Ireland at blindside, as has been said many times before it's no coincidence that he was at 6 for Ireland's best performances last year.
7. Van der Flier - the form openside.
8. Doris - don't think there's much between himself and Deegan, I'd go with Doris vs the Scots but maybe lean towards Deegan vs France.
20. O'Mahony - think he deserves a few runs off the bench before he's consigned to the scrapheap. I reckon he could be really good as a sub, he still has big moments but fades badly over the course of the game. If he could come up with a couple of lineout steals and a turnover or two over the course of 25 minutes he could be a really valuable impact sub.

AbusesToilets

I find it crazy that one of the sticks used to beat ROG with, was his liability defensively, that they had to have Wally often covering for him in the line. Now we have to build a plan around covering for POM lack of effort.

What a world.

VayNiice

POM's poor form has been ignored by Irish rugby journalists for the past 12 months who give him an armchair ride because

A) he's the munster captain
the media love this passion and SUAF bull****.
C) he makes the odd eye catching line out steal or poach which the armchair 6N fan can easily appreciate.

I guarantee if there is a turnover on the ground and its unclear to the camera operator who stole the ball, he/she will always focus it on POM's angry gurn.
To say his poor form is being blown out of proportion is rubbish. It's been frustrating for anyone outside munster to have to watch the starting Irish 6 make less than 5 tackles a game and only now is it being spoken about in the rugby media.

kilns

realhorrorshow wrote: »

I'd like to see the following vs Scotland

6. Stander - can't recall him having a bad game for Ireland at blindside, as has been said many times before it's no coincidence that he was at 6 for Ireland's best performances last year.
7. Van der Flier - the form openside.
8. Doris - don't think there's much between himself and Deegan, I'd go with Doris vs the Scots but maybe lean towards Deegan vs France.
20. O'Mahony - think he deserves a few runs off the bench before he's consigned to the scrapheap. I reckon he could be really good as a sub, he still has big moments but fades badly over the course of the game. If he could come up with a couple of lineout steals and a turnover or two over the course of 25 minutes he could be a really valuable impact sub.

Thats zero impact off the bench if you are behind and trying to win the game, the impacts you mention are all defensive, he offers almost nothing in an attacking sense

AbusesToilets

I'd go with Deegan VdF Doris with Stagger on the bench. About as good as it can be, with injuries and omissions.

prawnsambo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd go with Deegan VdF Doris with Stagger on the bench. About as good as it can be, with injuries and omissions.

I quite like the idea of Stagger on the bench. For one thing, it keeps everyone else safe and reduces the chances of anything fragile getting broken.

Jump_In_Jack

realhorrorshow wrote: »

I'd like to see the following vs Scotland

6. Stander - can't recall him having a bad game for Ireland at blindside, as has been said many times before it's no coincidence that he was at 6 for Ireland's best performances last year.
7. Van der Flier - the form openside.
8. Doris - don't think there's much between himself and Deegan, I'd go with Doris vs the Scots but maybe lean towards Deegan vs France.
20. O'Mahony - think he deserves a few runs off the bench before he's consigned to the scrapheap. I reckon he could be really good as a sub, he still has big moments but fades badly over the course of the game. If he could come up with a couple of lineout steals and a turnover or two over the course of 25 minutes he could be a really valuable impact sub.

Stander played 6 last year?
When was that?

Edit - Looked it up and found he did play 6 once last year against Wales in a warm-up match.

Are you talking about when he played 7?
He did play 7 with O'Mahony at 6 and Conan at 8.
He was interviewed about it, it was an attempt to try him out there, but he said he didn't feel right in that position, preferring 6 and 8.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Ruddock but I can understand the decision on reflection. He's an exceptionally solid player. He puts in a very solid shift always, makes his tackles, some hard carries and clears rucks.

But I don't think it's wrong to suggest he is not a particularly strong candidate to be part of the Irish team into the future. He's not known for having games where he comes up with a few game changing moments such as turnovers (breakdown or set piece), massive line breaking carries, momentum changing tackles where he drives the carrier right back etc. He's 30 this year so he's not going to suddenly transform into a player who does these things with any consistency. He's a tighthead lock trapped in the body of a blindside. Lads like JOD, Doris and Deegan could become those players.

Someone like POM has been this player in the past too. It's doubtful whether he can be this player again but you can understand the value in having him around the squad given it's generally accepted he's a key figure in the camp even if he's not in the 23. Farrell needs guys there who will galvanise the squad and set standards and expectations for new lads.

Shut up Bu....I mean excellent post Buer.

kingofthekong

I'd go Deegan, Doris and VDF with Stander on the bench

yerrahbah

VayNiice wrote: »

POM's poor form has been ignored by Irish rugby journalists for the past 12 months who give him an armchair ride because

A) he's the munster captain
the media love this passion and SUAF bull****.
C) he makes the odd eye catching line out steal or poach which the armchair 6N fan can easily appreciate.

I guarantee if there is a turnover on the ground and its unclear to the camera operator who stole the ball, he/she will always focus it on POM's angry gurn.
To say his poor form is being blown out of proportion is rubbish. It's been frustrating for anyone outside munster to have to watch the starting Irish 6 make less than 5 tackles a game and only now is it being spoken about in the rugby media.

Is this the unwritten rule where the media are not criticise POM?

molloyjh

yerrahbah wrote: »

Is this the unwritten rule where the media are not criticise POM?

Stop writing about it. The first rule of writing about POMs form is dont write about POMs form. Sheesh!

yerrahbah

molloyjh wrote: »

Stop writing about it. The first rule of writing about POMs form is dont write about POMs form. Sheesh!

I'm hoping by posting about enough on boards that it will gather media attention and they will forced into telling the truth, instead of ignoring the form of this one player.

Pogue eile

VayNiice wrote: »

He's incredibly biased towards munster

Ironic post of the year already perhaps?

aloooof

Cork29 wrote: »

I have said it before and i will say it again time to get our best athletes on the pitch.

Stuart McCloskey
Born: August 6, 1992 (age 27 years),
Height: 1.93 m
Weight: 111 kg

Chris Farrell
Born: March 16, 1993 (age 26 years), Belfast, United Kingdom
Height: 1.91 m
Weight: 110 kg

These 2 above players should be switched to the back row. Simple

Can you name even one player who has transitioned from midfield to back-row when ~26 years of age and became an international regular?