Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Based on his performance against Racing, based on his history. So one game and his ability, history and level.

I honestly believe it's a much more pragmatic reason than that. Ireland (during the RWC) were looking at a back row of Conan at 8 and Stander at 6 with JvdF at 7. That went out the window when Conan got injured and it went back to the Stander at 8 model with POM at 6. With three new contenders for the 8 jersey in Doris, O'Donohue and Deegan, they're going to try again, with a possibility of interchanging Doris and Deegan at 8, but still have the previous version to fall back on if that fails to click. It also gives them a few alternative combos like alternating Stander and POM or even Doris and JOD at flanker (possibly to back up JvdF).

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

I honestly believe it's a much more pragmatic reason than that. Ireland (during the RWC) were looking at a back row of Conan at 8 and Stander at 6 with JvdF at 7. That went out the window when Conan got injured and it went back to the Stander at 8 model with POM at 6. With three new contenders for the 8 jersey in Doris, O'Donohue and Deegan, they're going to try again, with a possibility of interchanging Doris and Deegan at 8, but still have the previous version to fall back on if that fails to click. It also gives them a few alternative combos like alternating Stander and POM or even Doris and JOD at flanker (possibly to back up JvdF).

The back row always comes down to balance, the balance of the 3 players in it and how the pack itself is balanced. If you pick toner you have pretty much guaranteed line out ball, but if you don’t pick him you need your best jumpers, and POM is one of them.

If you pick POM you need other ball carriers, and toner is t one of them, and other players aren’t either, like JOD isn’t a great carrier so having him and PoM is an issue for Munster.

The Irish pack has Healy, furlong, Ryan, hendo, and CJ that carry well, what you add to that then is a matter of choice.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The back row always comes down to balance, the balance of the 3 players in it and how the pack itself is balanced. If you pick toner you have pretty much guaranteed line out ball, but if you don’t pick him you need your best jumpers, and POM is one of them.

If you pick POM you need other ball carriers, and toner is t one of them, and other players aren’t either, like JOD isn’t a great carrier so having him and PoM is an issue for Munster.

The Irish pack has Healy, furlong, Ryan, hendo, and CJ that carry well, what you add to that then is a matter of choice.

POM is handy in the lineout alright and good at snaffling opposition ball. But so is James Ryan and Max Deegan is also a very good lineout jumper. Toner has the advantage of height, but needs a lot of heft to get him up there. So it's swings and roundabouts really. The other advantage Toner supplies is his presence in the lineout on opposition ball. He pretty much forces the opposition to throw anywhere but where he is.

The point I'm making is that POM's advantages in the lineout are marginal depending on who else is on the pitch. The actual problem that the Irish coaching team are trying to solve is the one you alluded to: ball carrying. CJ is decent, but he's not quick and he generally just about ekes out gainline. He's a useful battering ram off slow ruck ball to give a little bit of gainline and set up the next phase. But it has to be a quick recycle otherwise it's rinse and repeat. Hence Doris and Deegan. Both athletic, both quick and both capable of making significant metres from a carry. The likes of Healy and Furlong are good when the defence is stressed and a half break is on. They'll skittle a few defenders and with a quick recycle will provide the momentum for someone to make a clean break.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

I honestly believe it's a much more pragmatic reason than that. Ireland (during the RWC) were looking at a back row of Conan at 8 and Stander at 6 with JvdF at 7. That went out the window when Conan got injured and it went back to the Stander at 8 model with POM at 6. With three new contenders for the 8 jersey in Doris, O'Donohue and Deegan, they're going to try again, with a possibility of interchanging Doris and Deegan at 8, but still have the previous version to fall back on if that fails to click. It also gives them a few alternative combos like alternating Stander and POM or even Doris and JOD at flanker (possibly to back up JvdF).

Why would anyone want to fall back on the old version though? They were dreadful.

Dunney848

prawnsambo wrote: »

POM is handy in the lineout alright and good at snaffling opposition ball. But so is James Ryan and Max Deegan is also a very good lineout jumper. Toner has the advantage of height, but needs a lot of heft to get him up there. So it's swings and roundabouts really. The other advantage Toner supplies is his presence in the lineout on opposition ball. He pretty much forces the opposition to throw anywhere but where he is.

The point I'm making is that POM's advantages in the lineout are marginal depending on who else is on the pitch. The actual problem that the Irish coaching team are trying to solve is the one you alluded to: ball carrying. CJ is decent, but he's not quick and he generally just about ekes out gainline. He's a useful battering ram off slow ruck ball to give a little bit of gainline and set up the next phase. But it has to be a quick recycle otherwise it's rinse and repeat. Hence Doris and Deegan. Both athletic, both quick and both capable of making significant metres from a carry. The likes of Healy and Furlong are good when the defence is stressed and a half break is on. They'll skittle a few defenders and with a quick recycle will provide the momentum for someone to make a clean break.

Truth is if we resort to the smash and bang carrying game that has failed us so often we will lose every game. We are genetically too small to use that game at test level. We need to look to go around the corner every play and keep using it until gaps appear. Smash and grab will be a losing formula no matter who we select we simply don’t have the Vunipolas in our team

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Why would anyone want to fall back on the old version though? They were dreadful.

We don't. But it's never a certainty that form (but untested) players are able to make the step up to test rugby. Or take time to get there. And you don't have a lot of time in the 6N. It's just five matches. I'd be fairly confident that the new guys can make it, but I won't be 100% until I see it. And they weren't all dreadful. It was just the lack of ball carrying ability in the pack that hurt us. I'm kinda hoping the coaches are taking a 'break glass' approach with the previous back row.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

POM is handy in the lineout alright and good at snaffling opposition ball. But so is James Ryan and Max Deegan is also a very good lineout jumper. Toner has the advantage of height, but needs a lot of heft to get him up there. So it's swings and roundabouts really. The other advantage Toner supplies is his presence in the lineout on opposition ball. He pretty much forces the opposition to throw anywhere but where he is.

The point I'm making is that POM's advantages in the lineout are marginal depending on who else is on the pitch. The actual problem that the Irish coaching team are trying to solve is the one you alluded to: ball carrying. CJ is decent, but he's not quick and he generally just about ekes out gainline. He's a useful battering ram off slow ruck ball to give a little bit of gainline and set up the next phase. But it has to be a quick recycle otherwise it's rinse and repeat. Hence Doris and Deegan. Both athletic, both quick and both capable of making significant metres from a carry. The likes of Healy and Furlong are good when the defence is stressed and a half break is on. They'll skittle a few defenders and with a quick recycle will provide the momentum for someone to make a clean break.

Toner is useless as a defensive option, he’s just an easy to navigate roadblock. POM is the best defensive lineout operator we have and probably the best in the competition. We are both saying the same thing though, it’s horses for courses and a pack for a gameplan. He might be part of that but it depends if it weakens other areas like scrum, carrying, clearing or not.

Dorris and Deegan have not Played international level yet, it’s all well and good looking sharp in a league game as part of a dominant pack but the 6
Nations is another level that they simply have never seen. Hopefully they get exposure during this campaign but at 21 and 23 a cameo off the bench would be a great showing for them.

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Toner is useless as a defensive option, he’s just an easy to navigate roadblock.

When you come out with idiotic hyperbole like this it just makes your point all the more petty.

Ever consider that when toner is in the line out the attack throw is called away from him, so having a light rangy POM jumping at 2, sometimes with even one lifter, is the reason POM gets so many defensive turnovers?
As a leinster fan I've seen toner turn over plenty of defensive line outs over the years, so to call him useless as a defensive option is just plain ignorant.

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

When you come out with idiotic hyperbole like this it just makes your point all the more petty.

Ever consider that when toner is in the line out the attack throw is called away from him, so having a light rangy POM jumping at 2, sometimes with even one lifter, is the reason POM gets so many defensive turnovers?
As a leinster fan I've seen toner turn over plenty of defensive line outs over the years, so to call him useless as a defensive option is just plain ignorant.

I said this in the post he replied to and it was completely ignored. Hard to understand why tbh. It's a huge advantage to be able to dictate where the opposition throw to.

lawrencesummers

sydthebeat wrote: »

When you come out with idiotic hyperbole like this it just makes your point all the more petty.

Ever consider that when toner is in the line out the attack throw is called away from him, so having a light rangy POM jumping at 2, sometimes with even one lifter, is the reason POM gets so many defensive turnovers?
As a leinster fan I've seen toner turn over plenty of defensive line outs over the years, so to call him useless as a defensive option is just plain ignorant.

Let me expand on it so.
Toner for all his height and supposed lineout skills, doesn't win the ball on opposition throw at international level. He may get the odd badly thrown effort but for his height he doesnt put anywhere near the pressure on opposition throws that he should, POM puts far more pressure on the throw and wins / disrupts a hell of a lot more ball.

And the stats back this up.

Faugheen

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Let me expand on it so.
Toner for all his height and supposed lineout skills, doesn't win the ball on opposition throw at international level. He may get the odd badly thrown effort but for his height he doesnt put anywhere near the pressure on opposition throws that he should, POM puts far more pressure on the throw and wins / disrupts a hell of a lot more ball.

And the stats back this up.

I’m sure you can show us these supposed stats you have to back it up.

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

When you come out with idiotic hyperbole like this it just makes your point all the more petty.

Ever consider that when toner is in the line out the attack throw is called away from him, so having a light rangy POM jumping at 2, sometimes with even one lifter, is the reason POM gets so many defensive turnovers?
As a leinster fan I've seen toner turn over plenty of defensive line outs over the years, so to call him useless as a defensive option is just plain ignorant.

Not to mention his ability to disrupt a maul.

lawrencesummers

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m sure you can show us these supposed stats you have to back it up.

Sure do, or you could just watch a rugby match impartially.

Dave_The_Sheep

So you won't provide the stats to back it up then.

lawrencesummers

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

So you won't provide the stats to back it up then.

Feel free to contradict it if you are so sure of toners defensive lineout abilities.

Dave_The_Sheep

You've made the claim, said the stats back it up. So feel free to provide the stats that back it up.

lawrencesummers

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Sure do, or you could just watch a rugby match impartially.

Ironic.

POM has been bad for two years now. He's part of the under performing old guard that are there on reputation. He should be given another shot but he has a fight on his hands to be in the 23.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Let me expand on it so.
Toner for all his height and supposed lineout skills, doesn't win the ball on opposition throw at international level. He may get the odd badly thrown effort but for his height he doesnt put anywhere near the pressure on opposition throws that he should, POM puts far more pressure on the throw and wins / disrupts a hell of a lot more ball.

And the stats back this up.

You have literally straw manned syd's post. His main contention was (as was mine) that Toner's presence in the lineout can force the opposition to throw elsewhere; which you ignored. And he never mentioned his international record for lineout steals. Which you proceeded to argue against.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

You have literally straw manned syd's post. His main contention was (as was mine) that Toner's presence in the lineout can force the opposition to throw elsewhere; which you ignored. And he never mentioned his international record for lineout steals. Which you proceeded to argue against.

And thats a two sided argument, because teams know they have to avoid POM in the lineout as well so Toner can and has been the recipient of that at times.

The point stands and is the correct one, for all his height and what he brings to the team Toners lineout capabilities defensively are nowhere near as good as they should be and POM is more of a threat to opposition throw than he is.

What this means is that having POM in the team means you can leave out Toner who cant carry of threaten the breakdown the same way a player like James Ryan can, OR POM for that matter who had irelands most turnovers in last years 6 nations.

Balance again, and the pack is better balanced with Ryan and POM than Toner and no POM. If it wasnt for Toners late renaissance since being rightly left out of japan this wouldnt be an issue, but Ireland wont miss him if he is not involved the same way they would miss POM if he wasnt involved.

Go back to 2018, toner should be well ahead of POM but isnt.
http://sportlocker.ie/the-top-performers-in-the-six-nations-after-two-rounds/

Feel free to compare their European records as well, "Leinster’s most lineout steals and lineouts won (36), the third-highest in the competition behind Munster’s Peter O’Mahony (42)" https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/rugby-statistics-totemic-toner-towers-above-his-leinster-team-mates-1.3497819

Or if you want you can take toners word for it.
"Pete is one of the best in the world at it, he’s really good at springing up. If I’m calling lineouts (against him) I’d keep it away from him."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/rugby/devin-toner-the-keeper-of-irelands-lineout-flame-901294.html

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

And thats a two sided argument, because teams know they have to avoid POM in the lineout as well so Toner can and has been the recipient of that at times.

The point stands and is the correct one, for all his height and what he brings to the team Toners lineout capabilities defensively are nowhere near as good as they should be and POM is more of a threat to opposition throw than he is.

What this means is that having POM in the team means you can leave out Toner who cant carry of threaten the breakdown the same way a player like James Ryan can, OR POM for that matter who had irelands most turnovers in last years 6 nations.

Balance again, and the pack is better balanced with Ryan and POM than Toner and no POM. If it wasnt for Toners late renaissance since being rightly left out of japan this wouldnt be an issue, but Ireland wont miss him if he is not involved the same way they would miss POM if he wasnt involved.

Go back to 2018, toner should be well ahead of POM but isnt.
http://sportlocker.ie/the-top-performers-in-the-six-nations-after-two-rounds/

Feel free to compare their European records as well, "Leinster’s most lineout steals and lineouts won (36), the third-highest in the competition behind Munster’s Peter O’Mahony (42)" https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/rugby-statistics-totemic-toner-towers-above-his-leinster-team-mates-1.3497819

Or if you want you can take toners word for it.
"Pete is one of the best in the world at it, he’s really good at springing up. If I’m calling lineouts (against him) I’d keep it away from him."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/rugby/devin-toner-the-keeper-of-irelands-lineout-flame-901294.html

You are still completely ignoring the points made. Nobody in this conversation has ever denied POM's ability as a defensive lineout jumper. Nobody. At this point, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from this conversation as you completely ignore the points made and keep beating a drum that nobody is arguing against. Pointless.

Interested Observer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Go back to 2018, toner should be well ahead of POM but isnt.

What are you talking about?

lawrencesummers

Interested Observer wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Rugby.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

You are still completely ignoring the points made. Nobody in this conversation has ever denied POM's ability as a defensive lineout mumper. Nobody. At this point, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from this conversation as you completely ignore the points made and keep beating a drum that nobody is arguing against. Pointless.

Didn’t ignore any points and proved with statistics everything I was saying.

prawnsambo

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Didn’t ignore any points and proved with statistics everything I was saying.

Good for you. The best straw men are proven with statistics. :rolleyes:

Interested Observer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Rugby.

Well you're not making a whole lot of sense.

lawrencesummers

prawnsambo wrote: »

Good for you. The best straw men are proven with statistics. :rolleyes:

Keep going after the poster not the post.
That’s mature.

Castlekeeper

I'm an occasional lurker here so it might have been discussed before, but was there a case for going with James Ryan for captaincy, given Sexton's age and associated vulnerability to injury, and also his dourness?
That said I'm not a Leinster man and don't know much about Ryan apart from his talent and affability, but there's not too many other players sure of their positions on the team.
I'd hate to think it was a case of a reward for Sexton at the end of his career.

sydthebeat

Castlekeeper wrote: »

I'm an occasional lurker here so it might have been discussed before, but was there a case for going with James Ryan for captaincy, given Sexton's age and associated vulnerability to injury, and also his dourness?
That said I'm not a Leinster man and don't know much about Ryan apart from his talent and affability, but there's not too many other players sure of their positions on the team.
I'd hate to think it was a case of a reward for Sexton at the end of his career.

Sexton is the leinster club captain.

prawnsambo

Castlekeeper wrote: »

I'm an occasional lurker here so it might have been discussed before, but was there a case for going with James Ryan for captaincy, given Sexton's age and associated vulnerability to injury, and also his dourness?
That said I'm not a Leinster man and don't know much about Ryan apart from his talent and affability, but there's not too many other players sure of their positions on the team.
I'd hate to think it was a case of a reward for Sexton at the end of his career.

There was a case to be made, but perhaps it's a bit early when he's still developing as an international player to have to take on all the responsibilities as captain too. Apart from all the onfield stuff, there's the media obligations as well and he has pretty minimal experience of that, even with Leinster.

mfceiling

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Let me expand on it so.
Toner for all his height and supposed lineout skills, doesn't win the ball on opposition throw at international level. He may get the odd badly thrown effort but for his height he doesnt put anywhere near the pressure on opposition throws that he should, POM puts far more pressure on the throw and wins / disrupts a hell of a lot more ball.

And the stats back this up.

Toner is 6ft 10. Lifters probably get him up another 3 or 4 feet. Then his reach must be 2 feet. Any opposition lineout looks where Toner is then the hooker has to make sure the ball is about 14 -15 feet off the ground to keep it away from him. If Toner is at 2 then it's a hell of a high floated throw to get it over him allowing your lighter backrow a great chance to compete at 4, 6 or 8.
If Toner is at 4 then your option is the front (quite easy defended) or the hooker has one seriously difficult throw to make sure his arc is high enough to avoid Toner in the middle. This results in either crooked throws, missed target or good chance for Ireland to sniff out a steal.

Yes POM is a great stealer of lineout ball but having Toner there gives him more opportunity to do this.

Symbiotic relationship.