Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Cosmo Kramer

Rebelbrowser wrote: »

Lads I posted as follows on 26 Nov last as soon as Joe announced he was going. I was fairly firmly rebuked. This wasnt Nostramadus stuff, it was bloody obvious imho....

"....With the best will in the world this big time damages Ireland's RWC chances. The continuity thing helps but once a manager says he is going he has to have some small element of lame duck to him. Think Alex Ferguson in ca. 2003. His authority is inevitably undermined. Certainly by next Sept the players are going to be listening more to Farrell than to Joe. The king is dead and all that...."

I don't think that has been the issue though. I don't see how, if he hadn't announced it until after today's game, it would have made the slightest bit of difference.

There have been a lot of mistakes made my the Irish coaching staff in the last year but I don't see that announcement as being part of the problems at all.

As pointed out by others, it's not an issue for NZ or Wales.

whatawaster

Should be the end for Kearney, Earls, Sexton, Toner, Best, Cronin

And possibly others (POM, Stander, Healy etc)

Sad end

Clegg

It's a bad, sad end for what's been the best Ireland side I've ever seen. We've definitely regressed from the side we were 12 months ago. Hard to say why tbh.

We'll need to see a major improvement in phase attack under Farrell and Catt. We've some excellent, young backw in Ringrose, Larmour and Stockdale. The attack needs to be built around them.

RugbyLover123

Never going to happen but should really look towards building to the next WC in February. If it means poor performances in 6 Nations/November then so be it. But shouldn’t be investing time in players who aren’t going to be in France 2023.

No point going over what went wrong now, but hopefully the likes of Ryan, Leavy, VDF, Larmour can step up. And we unearth a world class 2 & wing and 10 because Carberry is not a 10 and Byrne isn’t up to it.

Interested Observer

That was the poorest back 3 to play for Ireland since POM lined out on the wing against Italy. Said it before the match, Conway and Larmour should have been starting. Not that it would have made a huge difference overall but there was no opportunity for guys to play their way into the team.

Danthemanhere

The Joeball fans will finally have to face facts. His outdated gameplan has been pointed out for a long time, now we can see where it has led us. Has to be said, his reputation has taken a battering this year.

ClanofLams

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Never going to happen but should really look towards building to the next WC in February. If it means poor performances in 6 Nations/November then so be it. But shouldn’t be investing time in players who aren’t going to be in France 2023.

No point going over what went wrong now, but hopefully the likes of Ryan, Leavy, VDF, Larmour can step up. And we unearth a world class 2 & wing and 10 because Carberry is not a 10 and Byrne isn’t up to it.

Nobody does that. Half of NZ’s backline only came on the scene in the last 18 months. Their back three played together for the first time two months ago.

I would be happy to get on board a four year plan if there was an example where it had worked. Sacrificing six nations games would have a serious impact in terms of interest, commercially etc

Some changes need to be made, Larmour at 15, New hooker, etc but there still needs to be a focus on a successful six nations.

Interested Observer

ClanofLams wrote: »

Nobody does that. Half of NZ’s backline only came on the scene in the last 18 months. Their back three played together for the first time two months ago.

I would be happy to get on board a four year plan if there was an example where it had worked. Sacrificing six nations games would have a serious impact in terms of interest, commercially etc

Some changes need to be made, Larmour at 15, New hooker, etc but there still needs to be a focus on a successful six nations.

Can we all agree its not very likely we'll have a successful 6N if we keep playing the same players en masse?

AbusesToilets

Interested Observer wrote: »

That was the poorest back 3 to play for Ireland since POM lined out on the wing against Italy. Said it before the match, Conway and Larmour should have been starting. Not that it would have made a huge difference overall but there was no opportunity for guys to play their way into the team.

One of biggest areas where I feel Joe failed, he went away from rewarding form completely over the last few seasons. Tied to that playing style, recipe for today's disaster.

NZ reward players who are performing with caps, we reward them with training camps.

ClanofLams

Interested Observer wrote: »

Can we all agree its not very likely we'll have a successful 6N if we keep playing the same players en masse?

I’m fine with that and with changes or whatever. But if for example, Cian Healy is in the best form come six nations, he should still start even though he won’t make France.

Squidgy Black

Interested Observer wrote: »

Can we all agree its not very likely we'll have a successful 6N if we keep playing the same players en masse?

We also only have a 4 month turnaround before the 6 Nations which is what, two training camps, so we're likely to have a poor 6 Nations regardless as there's little to no time for Farrell to implement his own game plan and bring new players into the setup.

whatawaster

ClanofLams wrote: »

I’m fine with that and with changes or whatever. But if for example, Cian Healy is in the best form come six nations, he should still start even though he won’t make France.

I don’t agree with that

Sexton has no chance of making France
But will almost certainly still be our best 10 in 3 months

There comes a point where we need to look to the future

Players shouldn’t play on until their legs completely go

ClanofLams

whatawaster wrote: »

I don’t agree with that

Sexton has no chance of making France
But will almost certainly still be our best 10 in 3 months

There comes a point where we need to look to the future

Players shouldn’t play on until their legs completely go

I think Carbery starting will make absolutely zero difference to how he or Ireland does in rwc ‘23. So I would be picking the best option for the six nations.

Ulysses Gaze

Interested Observer wrote: »

Can we all agree its not very likely we'll have a successful 6N if we keep playing the same players en masse?

I don't think we'll see huge changes from Farrell as HC and we will still be playing a bastardised version of coalminer rugby for 2 years until he is relieved of the HC position.

I hope I am wrong on that.

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

It doesn’t seem to be affecting Steve Hansen or Warren Gatland. Correlation doesn’t equal causation as they say.

Is Wayne pivac sitting on Gatlands shoulder? That’s the difference. Ian foster hasnt been announced either

Huge error

Danthemanhere

I think we might have to face facts, Schmidt wasn't nearly as good a coach as we previously thought.

ClanofLams

Niallof9 wrote: »

Is Wayne pivac sitting on Gatlands shoulder? That’s the difference. Ian foster hasnt been announced either

Huge error

How does that work now? Players don’t care even though the new head coach is there but they care when the head coach is somewhere else or something?

Niallof9

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I don't think we'll see huge changes from Farrell as HC and we will still be playing a bastardised version of coalminer rugby for 2 years until he is relieved of the HC position.

I hope I am wrong on that.

I’d say it’s accurate. Last week people were saying the 2023 would be nearly the same. It’s a joke. The 6 nations should be written off. Let lads come in etc. I’ll go nuts if we see some of this play or selection come the first game.

Fans, real fans, would give him a pass if he took a ballsy decision to say have the likes of penny, deegan, Doris, or whoever and guys like Byrne, Conway, o Sullivan or whoever is playing well.

But I do really think it’s central contract related in large parts. Some like toner get done but others get passes

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

How does that work now? Players don’t care even though the new head coach is there but they care when the head coach is somewhere else or something?

If you can’t see the difference I’m out. It’s a clear rebuttal to your argument. Gats and Hansen haven’t announced their successor, who’s to say the players are happy with it the succession idea? He’s a ghost/ shadow looming over it

You are arguing it doesn’t matter. If a coach as good as Ferguson thinks it does the idea is not without merit. Similar thing with one of the nfl coaches.

For me announcing faz is up there with handing Eddie o and kidders and Staunton, mon contracts before the show. Typical of us really

I think he’ll be gone by next season, that’s my prediction

ClanofLams

Niallof9 wrote: »

If you can’t see the difference I’m out. It’s a clear rebuttal to your argument. Gats and Hansen haven’t announced their successor, who’s to say the players are happy with it the succession idea? He’s a ghost/ shadow looming over it

Wayne Pivac has been named as replacement Welsh coach. Scarlets players mightn’t be too pleased with that given their regression?

A shadow looming over what? Whether they’re happy or not with him it’s not going to affect their commitment in a World Cup surely.

Exclamation Marc

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think we might have to face facts, Schmidt wasn't nearly as good a coach as we previously thought.

Facts point to him being quite the opposite actually. The team weren't good enough, but that doesn't make him a bad coach. Put the world's best coach (whoever that is) in charge of Namibia, doesn't mean they're going to win the WC.

But please, continue trolling, don't let facts get in the way.

Niallof9

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Facts point to him being quite the opposite actually.

But please, continue trolling.

So anybody counter to your point of view is a troll?

Joe has been great for us. But would the all blacks take him if that’s what he would have them play? The facts are on the global stage in 2 world cups under joe we have failed

There are mitigating factors in both

Andreas77

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think we might have to face facts, Schmidt wasn't nearly as good a coach as we previously thought.

Excellent comment. MENSA member by any chance?

ScissorPaperRock

Do we know who the assistant coaches will be now? Attack / Defence?

Donnielighto

ClanofLams wrote: »

I’m fine with that and with changes or whatever. But if for example, Cian Healy is in the best form come six nations, he should still start even though he won’t make France.

Depends, keep some experience yes but build out the squad properly and select on form when it matters. Sack off the 6 nation's, we have enough of them at this point.

Niallof9

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Do we know who the assistant coaches will be now? Attack / Defence?

Mike Catt who has been with Italy.

ClanofLams

Niallof9 wrote: »

If you can’t see the difference I’m out. It’s a clear rebuttal to your argument. Gats and Hansen haven’t announced their successor, who’s to say the players are happy with it the succession idea? He’s a ghost/ shadow looming over it

You are arguing it doesn’t matter. If a coach as good as Ferguson thinks it does the idea is not without merit. Similar thing with one of the nfl coaches.

For me announcing faz is up there with handing Eddie o and kidders and Staunton, mon contracts before the show. Typical of us really

I think he’ll be gone by next season, that’s my prediction

I already made the comparison to giving EOS long term contract, I’m not very happy with Farrell taking over just to clarify.

Ferguson thought it impacted in that players knew he would be gone the following season so the fear factor went. NZ and Welsh players know their respective coaches will be gone. It doesn’t seem to have any impact.

As I said, correlation does not equal causation.

ScrubsfanChris

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think we might have to face facts, Schmidt wasn't nearly as good a coach as we previously thought.

If you look at just the facts, he's Irelands most successful coach.
Players have to take responsibility too.

Shefwedfan

Looking at the team today one of the biggest mistakes actually was made over 12 months ago

The move of Carbery to 10 and pushing him to Munster has back fired massively. He should have been starting today but starting at 15.....

AbusesToilets

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I think we might have to face facts, Schmidt wasn't nearly as good a coach as we previously thought.

Accurate to a degree. Hansen completely changed up NZ's shape in response to the pressure defense that stymied them last year. It's clearly paying dividends. We haven't shown any innovation in about 3 years.

POC said it himself after the game. You see the Leinster lads go back to their club and suddenly remember how to pass and attack with the ball. It's not a coincidence. The usual cohort will wag their fingers and go on about levels and international rugby being a step up, yet conveniently overlook how NZ took us apart doing nothing fancy at all. Passing, running at space and playing with an attacking mindset.

Joe cut his cloth to measure with this squad, and got the result that was signposted seasons ago.