Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

and yet how many time have POM CJ and VDF played together and have proven that they dont work together. If its broke dont bother fixing it

The funny thing is yes he may not be fully ready but you wont know until you put these guys in and even being not fully ready he will offer more than POM

Farrell did exactly what he should have done. He dropped POM to the bench and started Doris last week. This "if its broke dont fix it" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. He made changes. Just like Joe did when he brought in Conan. Deegan isnt ready. Changing your arm on a guy in a game like this is, without wishing to be too blunt, dumb.

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

Deegan is likely to offer more going forward.
POM is likely to offer more in terms of turnover threat and lineout.

But simply asserting "Deegan will offer more" doesn't make it so.

As an aside, prior to Saturday's game, POM's tackle success was 87.7%. Deegan's was 87.3%.

I will take a wild guess that Deegan has made a hell of lot more tackles than POM has made so those percentages are meaningless

and yes going forward he offers alot more going forward which traditionally in Welsh games we are attack mostly and they defend brilliantly, so we pick a guy who will ask no questions of the welsh defence, genius

molloyjh

daddy pig wrote: »

The biggest issue with O'Mahony is that even if he has an excellent game it's still not what this Irish team will need. He hits his rucks, he has a turnover threat and is good in the lineout.
We are crying out for ball carriers in the backrow and the fact is that will never be something O'Mahony is capable of doing.
Stander had two turnovers at the weekend, would hit the same ruck numbers and would have a serious threat with the ball in hand. Stander has to play 6.

Agreed. Which is why I was calling for Stander to 6 and Doris to 8 weeks ago.

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

Farrell did exactly what he should have done. He dropped POM to the bench and started Doris last week. This "if its broke dont fix it" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. He made changes. Just like Joe did when he brought in Conan. Deegan isnt ready. Changing your arm on a guy in a game like this is, without wishing to be too blunt, dumb.

What chance would it be, pray tell.

One. ****ing. Tackle.

Farrell is basically content to start the game Fielding 14 players, for what POM brings.

kilns

molloyjh wrote: »

Farrell did exactly what he should have done. He dropped POM to the bench and started Doris last week. This "if its broke dont fix it" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. He made changes. Just like Joe did when he brought in Conan. Deegan isnt ready. Changing your arm on a guy in a game like this is, without wishing to be too blunt, dumb.

So a 23 year old back row forward who has played in all of Leinsters 6 European cup games this season scoring 2 tries and has been called into the Irish squad is not ready, Id love to know when he will be ready............

shootermacg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

MotM are utterly meaningless. Stander is not a good 8. He doesn't carry effectively, and he isn't a ballhawk.

You're a ballhawks

AbusesToilets

shootermacg wrote: »

You're a ballhawks

Only if you buy me a nice dinner first

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

I will take a wild guess that Deegan has made a hell of lot more tackles than POM has made so those percentages are meaningless

Do you have stats to back that up?

kilns wrote: »

and yes going forward he offers alot more going forward which traditionally in Welsh games we are attack mostly and they defend brilliantly, so we pick a guy who will ask no questions of the welsh defence, genius

Look, I think we agree that our carrying obviously suffers with both POM and VdF in the backrow. We're gonna need a lot more from the likes of Healy this weekend, who had a bit of an off day against Scotland

shootermacg

kilns wrote: »

So a 23 year old back row forward who has played in all of Leinsters 6 European cup games this season scoring 2 tries and has been called into the Irish squad is not ready, Id love to know when he will be ready............

Playing for Leinster is not equal to being a great international. It was primarily a team of Leinster players that got destroyed in the world cup.

Take Healy for instance, he hasn't been at the races internationally for a while now. Furlong's form has been poor, but both get on fine in Europe.

Now in saying that, I'm all for introducing some of the younger players, such as JoD, who's been playing some super rugby.

Interested Observer

aloooof wrote: »

As an aside, prior to Saturday's game, POM's tackle success was 87.7%. Deegan's was 87.3%.

This was from Kinsella's rundown of the various positions? Deegan has made 132 tackles this season, POM has made 49. You can't miss tackles if you don't try make them in the first place.

Edit - I should say that doesn't include Ireland so to be fair to POM he's made about 60 now after the weekend.

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

So a 23 year old back row forward who has played in all of Leinsters 6 European cup games this season scoring 2 tries and has been called into the Irish squad is not ready, Id love to know when he will be ready............

Ross Byrne has seen Leinster through some huge games for Leinster in the past. Is he ready to start at 10 against Wales? He had a shaky cameo off the bench against Scotland and on even just that basis I'd suggest no.

Deegan is a good player, but he himself has spoken about how hes needed to work on parts of his game recently. Theres a reason he has fallen behind Doris in the pecking order. I get the point you are trying to make, but like so many times before I'm left stating that Test level is a very different level to HEC. Just because Deegan is playing well for a dominant Leinster team (he scored 2 tries in an also-ran game against a team who had no real interest) at a lower level. It is not the same thing.

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

Do you have stats to back that up?



Look, I think we agree that our carrying obviously suffers with both POM and VdF in the backrow. We're gonna need a lot more from the likes of Healy this weekend, who had a bit of an off day against Scotland

I can go through the internet and find them but we both know POM and the number of tackles he makes

kilns

shootermacg wrote: »

Playing for Leinster is not equal to being a great international. It was primarily a team of Leinster players that got destroyed in the world cup.

Take Healy for instance, he hasn't been at the races internationally for a while now. Furlong's form has been poor, but both get on fine in Europe.

Now in saying that, I'm all for introducing some of the younger players, such as JoD, who's been playing some super rugby.

So playing great for Munster is ok but doesnt equate to guys playing well for Leinster :rolleyes:

AbusesToilets

shootermacg wrote: »

Playing for Leinster is not equal to being a great international. It was primarily a team of Leinster players that got destroyed in the world cup.

Take Healy for instance, he hasn't been at the races internationally for a while now. Furlong's form has been poor, but both get on fine in Europe.

Now in saying that, I'm all for introducing some of the younger players, such as JoD, who's been playing some super rugby.

And what was the headline feature of the team that got destroyed in the WC? Mayhaps this exact back row and half back combination?

shootermacg

AbusesToilets wrote: »

And what was the headline feature of the team that got destroyed in the WC? Mayhaps this exact back row and half back combination?

I'd be of the opinion that the main issue since 2019 now has been the front five.

kilns

molloyjh wrote: »

Ross Byrne has seen Leinster through some huge games for Leinster in the past. Is he ready to start at 10 against Wales? He had a shaky cameo off the bench against Scotland and on even just that basis I'd suggest no.

Deegan is a good player, but he himself has spoken about how hes needed to work on parts of his game recently. Theres a reason he has fallen behind Doris in the pecking order. I get the point you are trying to make, but like so many times before I'm left stating that Test level is a very different level to HEC. Just because Deegan is playing well for a dominant Leinster team (he scored 2 tries in an also-ran game against a team who had no real interest) at a lower level. It is not the same thing.

But thats exactly it, Test level is very different and you cant afford to carry passengers at that level but I am sorry POM is a luxury or passenger or whatever you want to call it that we cannot afford to carry and even if Deegan is a 1% improvement on him it would be worth it and currently yes in an ideal world it would be Dorris playing at 8 against Wales

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

This was from Kinsella's rundown of the various positions?

Correct. Source here.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Deegan has made 132 tackles this season, POM has made 49. You can't miss tackles if you don't try make them in the first place.

Curious what your source for this is? Those stats weren't mentioned in the article.

Interested Observer wrote: »

Edit - I should say that doesn't include Ireland so to be fair to POM he's made about 60 now after the weekend.

Presumably doesn't include any from the RWC either then. Are their minutes played comparable?

yerrahbah

I miss the team announcements being on a Friday

Sabre0001

Maybe PO'M puts the fear of God into opponents so they don't run at him to make tackles in the first place

moritz1234

British Lions Captain (PoM) v Deegan is a no brainer

kilns

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that the main issue since 2019 now has been the front five.

Id have to disagree, our attack is what stuttered and front foot ball is what you need for a strong attack and its usually 6 to 9 that provides that

shootermacg

kilns wrote: »

Id have to disagree, our attack is what stuttered and front foot ball is what you need for a strong attack and its usually 6 to 9 that provides that

If you compare the front 5 to 2018, they were absolutely destroying rucks for fun. This has since stopped, leaving too much work for the back row to do. Sure it looks bad for them because of the old stereotype that if the pack aren't dominating it must be the back row....it isn't.

Interested Observer

aloooof wrote: »

Correct. Source here.



Curious what your source for this is? Those stats weren't mentioned in the article.



Presumably doesn't include any from the RWC either then. Are their minutes played comparable?

Just the respective provincial sites. Deegan has more minutes yes, but certainly not twice as many to be proportional with those tackle counts.

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

But thats exactly it, Test level is very different and you cant afford to carry passengers at that level but I am sorry POM is a luxury or passenger or whatever you want to call it that we cannot afford to carry and even if Deegan is a 1% improvement on him it would be worth it and currently yes in an ideal world it would be Dorris playing at 8 against Wales

It's literally impossible to discuss this with you. You're working off a premise that Deegan is better than POM as though it were a fact. It isnt. It cant possibly be. Rugby isnt as linear and binary as you seem to think. Doris could be an unmitigated disaster against Wales for all we know. He might mess up at the back of the scrum. He might have the game pass him by because he cant keep up. Theres a bunch of areas that he could be found wanting. But you dont want to discuss any of that because you just want to be right.

shootermacg

Interested Observer wrote: »

Just the respective provincial sites. Deegan has more minutes yes, but certainly not twice as many to be proportional with those tackle counts.

You also need to factor in that one of those players is usually trying to get over the ball or slow down the ruck, whereas the other is tackling. In saying that, I wouldn't have PoM in the team, I'd have JoD, who has really had a breakout year for Munster this year.

kilns

shootermacg wrote: »

If you compare the front 5 to 2018, they were absolutely destroying rucks for fun. This has since stopped, leaving too much work for the back row to do. Sure it looks bad for them because of the old stereotype that if the pack aren't dominating it must be the back row....it isn't.

It is alot easier to dominate rucks when you are going forward and alot harder when you are going backwards or making zero metres, in 2018 were going forward but teams altered how they defended against us and we had no answer

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

Just the respective provincial sites. Deegan has more minutes yes, but certainly not twice as many to be proportional with those tackle counts.

So those stats are omitting POM's Ireland minutes for both last weekend, and the RWC, just to be clear.

Deegan is likely to have a higher tackle counter, but equally, there's going to be an inverse correlation between tackle-count and jackal-count. You don't want your best jackaller at the bottom of a ruck.

That's borne out by the stats too; POM has 9 jackals this season. Deegan has 0.

It's often more complex than is made out.

Neil3030

Yeah once teams didn't need to give any credence to our wide game, they could fully resource the tight areas and stop us. Priority has to be getting some width back into our game, which we did see in small patches last week.

shootermacg

kilns wrote: »

It is alot easier to dominate rucks when you are going forward and alot harder when you are going backwards or making zero metres, in 2018 were going forward but teams altered how they defended against us and we had no answer

I disagree, the front five have been poor as a unit. Furlong looks to be regaining his form, he had a good second half. Healy on the other hand was a total passenger. I'd be putting Marty Moore on the bench and playing Porter at loose-head. I'd also relegate Henderson to the bench in favor of Toner or...god forbid Kleyn. I'd also start Kelleher.

aloooof

Neil3030 wrote: »

Yeah once teams didn't need to give any credence to our wide game, they could fully resource the tight areas and stop us. Priority has to be getting some width back into our game, which we did see in small patches last week.

Great point, and this is what I'm interested in seeing. Change doesn't just have to come from the team sheet, which some are overlooking.