Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

TomsOnTheRoof

kilns wrote: »

Just out of interest where did you get those stats?

Kinsella had them. Compiled a list of most of the backrow stats. I'll see if I can find it. Someone posted it here during the week.

The Rape of Lucretia

AdamD wrote: »

The idea that its risky to try something new over something that is failing baffles me

It shouldnt really. Its risky to try the new if the new is only for new's sake. Its only worth trying the new, when there is an analysis that the new is more likely to succeed than the old.

Coaches arent gamblers (the good ones anyway - the spoofers are), pulling the arm on a new selection like a one arm bandit to see if this time they get a winning combination this time. Amateur fans are like that. Thats why 90% of their discussion rotates around selection. The other 10% on strategy.

Coaches though, have much more information and control in their hands. Strategy is half their concern. 40% the execution of that strategy. And selection a very monor component. They know what their best team is. Playing with the 10% variable, they know is not where they will have most effect. So they focust on strategy and execution. This is why most people complain about coaches never trying something new, because they are completely unaware of the work going into the attempts to improve execution - which is the element a coach knows is what makes the difference. He already knows his best 15, and has his views on strategy.

So coaches are indeed very much focused on improvement. But by perfecting the implementation of the strategy with the players thet already know are their best available.

swiwi_

If Ireland don't want Addison, we'll take him (although I see he's still injured)

Max Deegan could do a handy Errol Flynn impression. As an aside, if he scores on the field as much as Errol did playing the field, then Ireland will be grand

Shefwedfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

If Ireland don't want Addison, we'll take him (although I see he's still injured)

Max Deegan could do a handy Errol Flynn impression. As an aside, if he scores on the field as much as Errol did playing the field, then Ireland will be grand

Addison will play if he was ever fit during the international, something that is yet to happen

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

Conor Murray is an absolutely rubbish selection and the mental gymnastics required to try and excuse it are beyond my capabilities.

It really just is absolutely stupid at this stage.

"Here you go Conor, you were absolutely rubbish last year and you're still absolutely rubbish, but just have another go sure. John, I know you've been the best 9 on this island by a mile for at least a year now, I know you made Conor look like an amateur up in Ravenhill and I know you obviously were an improvement when you came on last week, but just take a seat on the bench there."

I can't help but feel that all of the "sure international level is tougher than provincial level" responses are somewhat ignoring the fact that Murray is not playing particularly well even at a provincial level. At least a number of other players who lacked form internationally over the last year have displayed some provincial form, but he has not. Why would anyone expect him to suddenly pick things up for Ireland, particularly after one chance where he was meh.

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

Conor Murray is an absolutely rubbish selection and the mental gymnastics required to try and excuse it are beyond my capabilities.

It really just is absolutely stupid at this stage.

"Here you go Conor, you were absolutely rubbish last year and you're still absolutely rubbish, but just have another go sure. John, I know you've been the best 9 on this island by a mile for at least a year now, I know you made Conor look like an amateur up in Ravenhill and I know you obviously were an improvement when you came on last week, but just take a seat on the bench there."

It’s a joke Murray is still playing 9, also the amount of pundits on podcast making excuses, more or less saying he is playing sh*t but you still pick him because of experience. Seriously

At this stage I am in the mood to cheer on Wales, hopefully a hammering at home might bring some sort of chnage

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What was the nature of these carries and passes? There's a big difference between shovelling the ball on desperately, a lá POC, versus drawing a defender and giving a pass to put away someone outside you. I can't remember Stander ever having a sequence similar to the one Conan did recently for example. Stander is a slightly more athletic version of POC.

It’s funny you should mention shoveling...

TomsOnTheRoof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What was the nature of these carries and passes? There's a big difference between shovelling the ball on desperately, a lá POC, versus drawing a defender and giving a pass to put away someone outside you. I can't remember Stander ever having a sequence similar to the one Conan did recently for example. Stander is a slightly more athletic version of POC.

It's impossible to win. First he didn't pass and now that the stats prove this to be a fallacy it's the wrong kind of pass. Stander is criminally underrated. His carries have been in the tight usually operating as a one out runner and that's the game he's being asked to play. He's made over 100 carries more than Deegan and Doris this season. I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot easier for him to carry out wide but he's tasked with trucking up slow ball and on average he's gaining just under 2 metres a carry. He does this time and time again and the vast majority of supporters lack either the gratitude or understanding to appreciate it.

yerrahbah

One game into the Farrell regime and people are hoping the team lose. Must be some sort of record.

salmocab

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

It's impossible to win. First he didn't pass and now that the stats prove this to be a fallacy it's the wrong kind of pass. Stander is criminally underrated. His carries have been in the tight usually operating as a one out runner and that's the game he's being asked to play. He's made over 100 carries more than Deegan and Doris this season. I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot easier for him to carry out wide but he's tasked with trucking up slow ball and on average he's gaining just under 2 metres a carry. He does this time and time again and the vast majority of supporters lack either the gratitude or understanding to appreciate it.

Not sure there are many that underrate Stander. Practically everyone here has him picked in their team just many feel he’s a better 6 and probably more importantly if he’s at 6 we might get a carrier at 8 too.

AbusesToilets

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

It's impossible to win. First he didn't pass and now that the stats prove this to be a fallacy it's the wrong kind of pass. Stander is criminally underrated. His carries have been in the tight usually operating as a one out runner and that's the game he's being asked to play. He's made over 100 carries more than Deegan and Doris this season. I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot easier for him to carry out wide but he's tasked with trucking up slow ball and on average he's gaining just under 2 metres a carry. He does this time and time again and the vast majority of supporters lack either the gratitude or understanding to appreciate it.

You like what you see from Stander, I get it. I've never viewed him as someone with much vision for attack. He looks good running in a gap, but imo he lacks the ability use footwork or effective passing to unlock a defense. That's an area where he is deficient relative to the Leinster backrows. I feel he instinctively looks to run to contact, but even in that he lacks the tendency to use better footwork and positioning to attack a soft shoulder. He suffers more for Ireland due to the gameplan, but let's not kid ourselves about what he brings to the table.

kilns

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

It's impossible to win. First he didn't pass and now that the stats prove this to be a fallacy it's the wrong kind of pass. Stander is criminally underrated. His carries have been in the tight usually operating as a one out runner and that's the game he's being asked to play. He's made over 100 carries more than Deegan and Doris this season. I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot easier for him to carry out wide but he's tasked with trucking up slow ball and on average he's gaining just under 2 metres a carry. He does this time and time again and the vast majority of supporters lack either the gratitude or understanding to appreciate it.

Stander is our best 6 but when you mention the amount of carries that has done that is bad reflection on Munster and Ireland rather than the other players mentioned, we are overly reliant on him as Ireland and Munster play a 6 who can’t shoulder some of that carry burden. I’m amazed that CJ can still compete for turnovers etc after all the carries and collisions he goes through. He is definitely an unsung hero. Dorris would have complimented him nicely and Deegan would too

TomsOnTheRoof

salmocab wrote: »

Not sure there are many that underrate Stander. Practically everyone here has him picked in their team just many feel he’s a better 6 and probably more importantly if he’s at 6 we might get a carrier at 8 too.

I wouldn't be so sure. Before the Scottish game there were numerous pundits asking questions about his inclusion including the likes of Andy Dunne. Hell, Matt Williams claimed Stander had been out of form for some time prior to the match on Saturday despite him being arguably our best player at the WC. Now I get that most people take what the above two have to say with a large pinch of salt but it does illustrate the attitude a lot of people have with regards to CJ's ability.

penybont exile

OldRio wrote: »

An awful feeling of 'deja Vu'

Hope not ..... you had our number last time we were here .....

kilns

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure. Before the Scottish game there were numerous pundits asking questions about his inclusion including the likes of Andy Dunne. Hell, Matt Williams claimed Stander had been out of form for some time prior to the match on Saturday despite him being arguably our best player at the WC. Now I get that most people take what the above two have to say with a large pinch of salt but it does illustrate the attitude a lot of people have with regards to CJ's ability.

I think it’s because he is being played out of position. Most pundits (and rightly so) were calling for the dropping of Murray and OMahony

salmocab

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure. Before the Scottish game there were numerous pundits asking questions about his inclusion including the likes of Andy Dunne. Hell, Matt Williams claimed Stander had been out of form for some time prior to the match on Saturday despite him being arguably our best player at the WC. Now I get that most people take what the above two have to say with a large pinch of salt but it does illustrate the attitude a lot of people have with regards to CJ's ability.

Honestly I think if you search you’ll always find. Even in a place as full as bias as this most would pick Stander.

The Rape of Lucretia

kilns wrote: »

I think it’s because he is being played out of position.

CJ didnt get where he is today by being played out of position.

Neil3030

The real fun starts when Leavy and Conan are back fit, with Doris also in contention. I could possibly see an Irish 23 featuring neither POM nor Stander, but that will depend on Doris's ability to step up to the International level.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

CJ didnt get where he is today by being played out of position.

Amazing :pac:

jacothelad

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Minutes. Sorry should have clarified. 55 passes for Stander, 27 for Deegan and 18 for Doris.

So about 5 passes per game.

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Hmmm. Thats (mildly) interesting. If you were picking a team, would you pick POM ahead of Hooper, Cane or Savea?

No, I'd have have Hooper or Savea. But thenI'd have them over Deegan too.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At this stage I am in the mood to cheer on Wales, hopefully a hammering at home might bring some sort of chnage

Ah c'mon Shef, if anyone had posted something like this during the RWC, you'd have hammered them.

TomsOnTheRoof

jacothelad wrote: »

So about 5 passes per game.

Works out about 4 and a half per gamer for Stander, 2 and a half for Deegan and 2 for Doris. So nearly double.

Granny15

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Works out about 4 and a half per gamer for Stander, 2 and a half for Deegan and 2 for Doris. So nearly double.

What the stats don’t tell you about is the vision that goes into those passes. Just like tackle stats don’t tell you how good a player is at reading an opposition defence and how good a defender he is. Stats are 2 dimensional they don’t dictate how good a player is at reading the game. They tell only half the story.

penybont exile

From an outsider's perspective .......

Might be proven wrong on Saturday but IMO a more balanced back row would have included Deegan at 8. From what I've seen of him this season he looks a good player. You are never going to find out how good until you give him the opportunity.

Look at Aaron Wainwright .... playing for the Dragons ..... young guy ... 22 ...... I don't think he even started playing rugby until he was 17. Gets his chance @20 and grabs it with both hands ..... I've a feeling Lydiate would still be our 6 if our selectors were of the same mindset as many on here (& possibly Faz Snr).

Clegg

Wales won the GS in the back of their excellent defence. The worry I have with a backrow of POM and VDF is that they don't carry effectively enough to break them down. It's an even bigger worry when your tight five is struggling to front up like ours is currently. I'm not sure if Deegan is necessarily the answer. He plays most his best when the game is open and he has space and time to use his footwork to hit soft shoulders. If he doesn't get that we don't get the most out of his running, offloading and linking skills.

TomsOnTheRoof

Granny15 wrote: »

What the stats don’t tell you about is the vision that goes into those passes. Just like tackle stats don’t tell you how good a player is at reading an opposition defence and how good a defender he is. Stats are 2 dimensional they don’t dictate how good a player is at reading the game. They tell only half the story.

So essentially now that we've in fact established that Stander passes and offloads more than his provincial counterparts we should disregard these figures because they are somehow flawed or, more likely, because they illustrate that most people have been talking out their arse when they've been complaining about Stander never passing.

The Rape of Lucretia

Granny15 wrote: »

Stats are 2 dimensional they don’t dictate how good a player is at reading the game. They tell only half the story.

True. They tell the full story when they support your argument. They dont tell the story at all when they dont support it. Which averages out to only half the story.

Granny15

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

So essentially now that we've in fact established that Stander passes and offloads more than his provincial counterparts we should disregard these figures because they are somehow flawed or, more likely, because they illustrate that most people have been talking out their arse when they've been complaining about Stander never passing.

I should have put a proviso on that message. I agree with you re Stander and your point in general but using stats to paint a picture of how good a player is is pointless.

There is so much more that goes into the game than a few snapshots or action points of any one players performance.

I would go one further (wait for the uproar) I don’t believe Pete O Mahonys lie stats in tackles metres carried necessarily make him a poor player. In fact I think he is an immense player. Sorry for derailing your point I just wish to highlight the limited parameters posters on here put into judging whether a player is good or not

The Rape of Lucretia

Granny15 wrote: »

I would go one further (wait for the uproar) I don’t believe Pete O Mahonys lie stats in tackles metres carried necessarily make him a poor player.

His line break numbers certainly indicate he is way less effective at that than VDF, who consistently outperforms him in this aspect game in game out. And add that to the low tackle count, meters made, and tackles, do clearly mark him as a vastly inferior openside compared to VDF.