Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof · 05-02-2020 12:15pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The squad has been pretty much the same size for years now, and a lot of that squad have not been in it for years... so clearly doesn’t take very much intensive thought to find a rake of examples and start to work that out.

We had 2 debutants last weekend and a debutant this weekend, they were both in the squad believe it or not! Will Connors just added to a squad for the first time as well.

aloooof · 05-02-2020 12:15pm

AdamD wrote: »

How many times have either of those played 15 in that time frame? Doubt its more than 2 each

Dunno where this notion of Conway as 15 comes from, he never plays there for Munster.

I think Stockdale has been played at 15 a reasonable amount for Ulster.

irishbucsfan · 05-02-2020 12:16pm

daddy pig wrote: »

That would be true if the box kick travelled more then 10 metres. I am pretty sure Murray is able to kick further then that if it was his intention but it clearly wasn't on countless occasions at the weekend. We simply had no joy with chasers blocked yet continued to do it.

You’re not correct. Even if it doesn’t travel a great distance it’s still an exit. Maybe not a particularly well executed one, no arguments there.

Shefwedfan · 05-02-2020 12:20pm

AdamD wrote: »

How many times have either of those played 15 in that time frame? Doubt its more than 2 each

Dunno where this notion of Conway as 15 comes from, he never plays there for Munster.

Stockdale has started at 15 at end of last season for Ulster and a number of times this season. Also played U20 and 15 and said he prefers playing at 15 if I remember correctly in an interview recently/last season

Conway played for a couple of season at 15 and I am sure a few times last year for Munster. Not this season as he was at WC

Carbery has played how many times at 15 since his move to Munster?

car_radio19834 · 05-02-2020 12:26pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The squad has been pretty much the same size for years now, and a lot of that squad have not been in it for years... so clearly doesn’t take very much intensive thought to find a rake of examples and start to work that out.

We had 2 debutants last weekend and a debutant this weekend, they were both in the squad believe it or not! Will Connors just added to a squad for the first time as well.

Amazing the things people believe to think Farrel is undergoing some kind of revolution.

We're just at the end of a world cup cycle, there's going to be debutants as players retire.

daddy pig · 05-02-2020 12:27pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You’re not correct. Even if it doesn’t travel a great distance it’s still an exit. Maybe not a particularly well executed one, no arguments there.

If those kicks were truly Murray trying to strategically exit then he needs to be dropped immediately.

Interested Observer · 05-02-2020 12:29pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Stockdale has started at 15 at end of last season for Ulster and a number of times this season. Also played U20 and 15 and said he prefers playing at 15 if I remember correctly in an interview recently/last season

Conway played for a couple of season at 15 and I am sure a few times last year for Munster. Not this season as he was at WC

Carbery has played how many times at 15 since his move to Munster?

Haley plays 15 for Munster. Conway does not.

aloooof · 05-02-2020 12:32pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

Haley plays 15 for Munster. Conway does not.

Neither does Carbery. But that didn't stop the OP suggesting he was the only one of a list (including Conway) he'd like to see there.

arsebiscuits1 · 05-02-2020 12:38pm

James Ryan has signed a central contract for the next 3 years (to the suprise of no one)

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/02/05/james-ryan-signs-three-year-irfu-contract/

Eod100 · 05-02-2020 12:39pm

Good news on Ryan: https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1225012237162680320?s=19

Shefwedfan · 05-02-2020 12:41pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

Haley plays 15 for Munster. Conway does not.

Did I say Haley didn't or Conway did?

Did you even read my post?

stephen_n · 05-02-2020 12:50pm

daddy pig wrote: »

We didn't retrieve a single box kick and simply gave possession to Scotland every time we tried it. Part of that was down to Murrays kicking and partly to the runners being blocked yet we persisted with it.
The only time we retrieved the ball was when it went back to Sexton to kick instead - I remember us retrieving the ball on two occasions this way as he could change where the ball would land freeing up the runners to chase without being blocked.

Well you can be pretty much guaranteed if that wasn’t the gameplan in that section of the pitch and he was doing that. Then he would be dropped. Retrieving the ball from a box kick is a bonus, not the goal.

daddy pig · 05-02-2020 12:58pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Well you can be pretty much guaranteed if that wasn’t the gameplan in that section of the pitch and he was doing that. Then he would be dropped. Retrieving the ball from a box kick is a bonus, not the goal.

Yes naturally it was the gameplan but that is not what I am questioning.

A box kick into touch like the Cooney example is good.
A box kick deep into the opposition territory to reset and defend is good.
A box kick which travels up the pitch and a tackle is made immediately and is reset to defend is good.
A box kick which is contested by both teams even if you lose it is good as you have the opportunity of a bonus retrieval is good.

But what advantage do you believe we get by box kicking from our 10 metre line to just over halfway when a Scottish player retrieves the ball uncontested and runs it back immediately to where we kicked it from?
Is it a poor kick? Is it a poor defensive line? Is it a poor chase?

jacothelad · 05-02-2020 1:09pm

baas baa wrote: »

Are Standers passing statistics not going to be skewed by the fact he'll be popping the ball up to the 9 off the base of the scrum several times a game.

Shhhhhhh! Don't spoil it now.

stephen_n · 05-02-2020 1:12pm

daddy pig wrote: »

Yes naturally it was the gameplan but that is not what I am questioning.

A box kick into touch like the Cooney example is good.
A box kick deep into the opposition territory to reset and defend is good.
A box kick which travels up the pitch and a tackle is made immediately and is reset to defend is good.
A box kick which is contested by both teams even if you lose it is good as you have the opportunity of a bonus retrieval is good.

But what advantage do you believe we get by box kicking from our 10 metre line to just over halfway when a Scottish player retrieves the ball uncontested and runs it back immediately to where we kicked it from?
Is it a poor kick? Is it a poor defensive line? Is it a poor chase?

I don’t remember that happening in the game? Most of the box kicks to my memory were man and ball. No we didn’t retrieve any but I don’t remember them running any straight back to where it was kicked from either. Kick it too long and it’s not contestable and gives them free reign to run back at us. Something that we were clearly trying to avoid, which is why our back three weren’t kicking I’d assume. The Scots are lethal counter runners, especially Hogg. I’d presume it was very tactical to keep the ball shallow rather than kick deep.

daddy pig · 05-02-2020 1:23pm

stephen_n wrote: »

I don’t remember that happening in the game? Most of the box kicks to my memory were man and ball.

I can guarantee you there were no man and ball tackles - I would have been delighted to have seen them. We consistently kicked ball away with no distance and a free run baclk by the Scottish player.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

On a number of kicks it resulted in Ireland losing position and going backwards. This was mostly down to poor kicks

This is accurate.

TomsOnTheRoof · 05-02-2020 1:26pm

For a country that prides itself on our support the last 30 pages have been embarrassing. This is a discussion forum and people are obviously entitled to debate selection choices but the levels of hysteria and shrill outrage are pretty sad. Farrell is one game into his tenure and we have people writing him off already.

Put yourself in his shoes for Christ's sake. It's the biggest moment of his career and he is desperate to get off to a winning start. Yes his selection of Murray is conservative but is it really such a sin for him to go with what he knows in only his second test? Doris and Deegan are being given opportunities, as is Kelleher. People really need to cop the **** on and leave the ****e at the door. If Farrell is making the same selections six months down the line and we are playing like a drain then feel free to have a go.

jacothelad · 05-02-2020 1:27pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

What’s the story with Addison?

He appears to be made of candy floss and spiders web. He's a great talent but fragile. He now has a calf strain.

jacothelad · 05-02-2020 1:33pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So we can have

Sexton 10 and can play 12 at a push
Stockdale - 11/14/15
Henshaw - 12/13/15
Aki - 12/13
Conway - 11/14/15
Larmour - 11-15 :-)

Earls - 11/13/14/15

Plus

Cooney - 9/10

Not sure what Carbery would bring that would open up things?

All of the above have played at some stage those roles and would have more experience than sticking Marmion onto the wing which happened in a real crisis.

Stockdale used to claim that 13 was his favourite position....a few years ago.

Mr Tickle · 05-02-2020 1:35pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So we can have

Sexton 10 and can play 12 at a push
Stockdale - 11/14/15
Henshaw - 12/13/15
Aki - 12/13
Conway - 11/14/15
Larmour - 11-15 :-)

Earls - 11/13/14/15

Plus

Cooney - 9/10

Not sure what Carbery would bring that would open up things?

All of the above have played at some stage those roles and would have more experience than sticking Marmion onto the wing which happened in a real crisis.

Sexton at 12 isn't something we've seen for a while and i imagine you'd struggle to shift him from 10. Stockdale can do a job at 15 but i'd have more faith in Carbury.
Henshaw to 15 is a questionable one. I used like him there but it's been a while and he's a different player now.
Conway can play across the back 3 Fair enough.
Larmour and Earls don't fill me with confidence in the centre.

I'd rather have Carbury on the bench covering 10 & 15 along with a centre. ideally Ringrose is involved to give secondary wing cover in case we have two injuries or whatever. Henshaw can do the same at a push.

Edit: Having Addison in there solves a lot of issues.
Cooney at 10 isn't something you want to go into a game relying on.
Maybe if we lose a centre (so lets say Henshaw comes on) then a wing/full back either takes a knock or is fading (carbury comes on & larmour moves to the wing). Then sexton gets injured. Maybe in this situation you put Conney to 10

salmocab · 05-02-2020 2:02pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Stockdale used to claim that 13 was his favourite position....a few years ago.

10 was my favourite position but I’d be damned if I could get a coach that wouldn’t pick me at prop.

Yeah_Right · 05-02-2020 2:05pm

aloooof wrote: »

I only pointed this out to show that POM isn't the useless lump that some are painting him to be. A loose look at what was claimed:
Deegan "will offer more than POM."
There's obviously no way of knowing that. If it was that simple, Farrell would have selected Deegan.

This changed to "he'll offer more going forward". No issues with this.

Added to this was "...chances are he will tackle better too as he has a better tackle rate than POM in the European cup too."
This is inaccurate; their tackle % rates for the season are practically the same. (Deegan 87.3%, POM >87.7%).

When this was pointed out, this changed to "those percentages are meaningless" because "Deegan has made a hell of lot more tackles"

To back this up, another poster claimed "Deegan has made 132 tackles this season, POM has made 49."

This is just plain wrong. POM has made 94 tackles. Admittedly lower than Deegan but nowhere near what was being made out. And part of the picture of the tackle counts is also that POM has 9 jackals while Deegan has 0.

Finally, the original poster then claimed that "In truth whenever Ireland were at full strength it was POM that would lose out. cJ/Heaslip and conan/cJ"

With regards CJ and Conan, that's just plain wrong. Complete nonsense.

That's an awful lot of goalpost-moving and factual inaccuracy.

The problem as I see it with PO, is that he is very average. He does a couple of things (lineouts and turnovers/slowing the ball) very well but the rest of his game is meh. He is not one of the great blindsides. My knowledge of Irish blindsides is limited. Ferris is the one that sticks out and POM isn't close to him.

I think of some of the great AB blindsides I've watched over the year : Cowboy Shaw, AJ Whetton, Michael Jones (post knee surgery), Jerry Collins, Jerome Kaino. They smashed opposition ball carriers, they hit rucks and blew them apart, they tore into mauls, they ran the ball all day, skittling opponents and dragging in tacklers, they ran great support lines and had ball skills to put team mates into gaps . They had massive impacts on matches time and again and they put the fear of god into the opposition. Thats what I want from a blindside flanker.

POM offers none of that. Why not give a young player a shot. Especially one that has been doing it (at a lower level). If he succeeds, great. If not, so be it, he will hopefully learn from the experience and get better.

jacothelad · 05-02-2020 2:10pm

salmocab wrote: »

10 was my favourite position but I’d be damned if I could get a coach that wouldn’t pick me at prop.

I could be going out on a very thin and shaky limb here but I suspect that Stockdale might make a better fist of 13 than...well a prop as a 10....no offence. I think he made that remark when he was just on the edge of the Ulster team selection. I hope we never see him at 13 though.

I hope Earls isn't called upon to play at 13. He is pretty dire there at international level. He's a star wing but that's it......plus he has at times been pretty poor since the RWC even playing where he should be.

salmocab · 05-02-2020 2:17pm

jacothelad wrote: »

I could be going out on a very thin and shaky limb here but I suspect that Stockdale might make a better fist of 13 than...well a prop as a 10....no offence. I think he made that remark when he was just on the edge of the Ulster team selection. I hope we never see him at 13 though.

I hope Earls isn't called upon to play at 13. He is pretty dire there at international level. He's a star wing but that's it......plus he has at times been pretty poor since the RWC even playing where he should be.

Oh I’m sure he would but my point was about players saying where they prefer to play means sod all if they aren’t picked there.

05-02-2020 2:32pm

salmocab wrote: »

10 was my favourite position but I’d be damned if I could get a coach that wouldn’t pick me at prop.

aloooof · 05-02-2020 2:39pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The problem as I see it with PO, is that he is very average. He does a couple of things (lineouts and turnovers/slowing the ball) very well but the rest of his game is meh. He is not one of the great blindsides. My knowledge of Irish blindsides is limited. Ferris is the one that sticks out and POM isn't close to him.

I think of some of the great AB blindsides I've watched over the year : Cowboy Shaw, AJ Whetton, Michael Jones (post knee surgery), Jerry Collins, Jerome Kaino. They smashed opposition ball carriers, they hit rucks and blew them apart, they tore into mauls, they ran the ball all day, skittling opponents and dragging in tacklers, they ran great support lines and had ball skills to put team mates into gaps . They had massive impacts on matches time and again and they put the fear of god into the opposition. Thats what I want from a blindside flanker.

POM offers none of that. Why not give a young player a shot. Especially one that has been doing it (at a lower level). If he succeeds, great. If not, so be it, he will hopefully learn from the experience and get better.

All of this is fair; there are legit reasons why someone would prefer Deegan over O'Mahony, and you've mentioned some of them there. I've no problem with that, or someone having a different opinion.

The issue I had was that some posters were just plain making things up / moving goalposts, and using those factual inaccuracies as reasons why Deegan should be selected ahead of POM.

Shefwedfan · 05-02-2020 2:50pm

aloooof wrote: »

All of this is fair; there are legit reasons why someone would prefer Deegan over O'Mahony, and you've mentioned some of them there. I've no problem with that, or someone having a different opinion.

The issue I had was that some posters were just plain making things up / moving goalposts, and using those factual inaccuracies as reasons why Deegan should be selected ahead of POM.

Im not a man for stats but I can tell you POM is out of form and out of form now for nearly a year.

We have a number of young player Deegan/ Doris/ JOD etc who are getting overlooked for a player out of form.

It kind of made sense to me at the WC as Joe wanted to go with the guys who he trusted. Plus the Conan injury meant he hadn't much choice. I didn't like it but it made sense.

But we are now past the WC, to start back into another 6 nations with POM in the team is just a joke to me to be honest.

Podcasts going on about picking him for his leadership, if that was the case then pick him as captain.

Next is line out, but Deegan and other have shown they are excellent line out operators. The time POM started against England to replace heaslip you would swear none of our players jumped in the line out.

The big turn over is next, him and VDF ended up going for the same turn over last week a few times, plus the big ones went to Stander. It's pointless having both VDF and POM on the pitch.

At this stage I don't really see what he add's to the team compared to what another player can add, plus that other player has other traits which could help us win.

I have a feeling Wales are going to hit the backrow hard and we will have no answer. Stander will be lined up because he is the only one who will carry and get hammered, like NZ done in WC.

No matter what changes we make in the backs, it won't make a flying bit of difference if we are getting killed in the forwards and especially the second row. I am afraid its going to be a long Saturday......problem is, if we lose, you will still have Quinny etc trying to tell us that Murray/POM had a great game which is as annoying as anything.

Brief_Lives · 05-02-2020 2:54pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

problem is, if we lose, you will still have Quinny etc trying to tell us that Murray/POM had a great game which is as annoying as anything.

I am not sure whats more annoying, you supposing the boys will have a bad game, or the last 2 weeks of you and kilns talking about how crap the boys are, every post.

Who is Quinny etc...? just Munster players or others with an opinion you don´t trust?

kilns · 05-02-2020 2:57pm

Brief_Lives wrote: »

I am not sure whats more annoying, you supposing the boys will have a bad game, or the last 2 weeks of you and kilns talking about how crap the boys are, every post.

Who is Quinny etc...? just Munster players or others with an opinion you don´t trust?

Excuse me when I have said how crap "the boys" are?

I criticized POM for his low contribution to the game and how it affects us and Murray for his sloppiness compared to what he can produce but apart from that name another player I criticized.

get your facts straight

Richie_Rich89 · 05-02-2020 3:03pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The problem as I see it with PO, is that he is very average. He does a couple of things (lineouts and turnovers/slowing the ball) very well but the rest of his game is meh. He is not one of the great blindsides. My knowledge of Irish blindsides is limited. Ferris is the one that sticks out and POM isn't close to him.

I think of some of the great AB blindsides I've watched over the year : Cowboy Shaw, AJ Whetton, Michael Jones (post knee surgery), Jerry Collins, Jerome Kaino. They smashed opposition ball carriers, they hit rucks and blew them apart, they tore into mauls, they ran the ball all day, skittling opponents and dragging in tacklers, they ran great support lines and had ball skills to put team mates into gaps . They had massive impacts on matches time and again and they put the fear of god into the opposition. Thats what I want from a blindside flanker.

POM offers none of that. Why not give a young player a shot. Especially one that has been doing it (at a lower level). If he succeeds, great. If not, so be it, he will hopefully learn from the experience and get better.

Yep. Your blindside needs to be a physical rock that everyone else can lean on. O'Mahony doesn't have enough physical presence. Deegan doesn't either for blindside, to be honest, but Stander at 6 and Deegan at 8 has a good look to it.

I get that the coach needs cohesion in how the team plays, and chopping and changing won't give you that, but putting POM and JvdF in the same backrow is a recipe for losing the backrow battle more often than not in big games.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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