Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Be interesting to see if Doris starts against England. POM and Stander have answered a lot of critics the last two weeks in fairness to them, Stander in particular. I'd say more like Doris comes off the bench but hope I'm surprised.

On second viewing I reckon he was very lucky not to give away a penalty under the posts to Scotland with that opening turnover. We didn't seem to be competing for the ball that breakdown and he was well outside the gate before he got his hands on the ball.

I'd be surprised if the team changes for England.

Italy will be interesting, I'd guess there's a chance we will see some of Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Earls and possibly Addison getting starts.

Neil3030

I loved the couple of little feints Ross Byrne threw during his cameo; showing pass, he took it right to the line, then accelerated laterally through the gap created by the Welsh defensive line rushing up outside him. Shows we are not just changing our style of play (looking to get the ball wider), but also developing solutions to how teams will likely try and stop our new style - i.e., strong blitz defence.

AbusesToilets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Be interesting to see if Doris starts against England. POM and Stander have answered a lot of critics the last two weeks in fairness to them, Stander in particular. I'd say more like Doris comes off the bench but hope I'm surprised.

On second viewing I reckon he was very lucky not to give away a penalty under the posts to Scotland with that opening turnover. We didn't seem to be competing for the ball that breakdown and he was well outside the gate before he got his hands on the ball.

I think a player like Doris is essential to how Farrell will want to have the team play. We need more effective ball players in the forwards. Stander would be more effective playing off someone who can make a half break and give a pass

kilns

Deleted User wrote: »

Be interesting to see if Doris starts against England. POM and Stander have answered a lot of critics the last two weeks in fairness to them, Stander in particular. I'd say more like Doris comes off the bench but hope I'm surprised.

On second viewing I reckon he was very lucky not to give away a penalty under the posts to Scotland with that opening turnover. We didn't seem to be competing for the ball that breakdown and he was well outside the gate before he got his hands on the ball.

I think he will stick with the same team for England, long term the POM CJ and VDF is not the solution and frankly are not good enough a combination. I think the way Farrell will want to play will include more "athletic" type number 8 so I would expect to see Doris start for the Italy game with perhaps Deegan on the bench, giving possibly Stander a rest

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

I loved the couple of little feints Ross Byrne threw during his cameo; showing pass, he took it right to the line, then accelerated laterally through the gap created by the Welsh defensive line rushing up outside him. Shows we are not just changing our style of play (looking to get the ball wider), but also developing solutions to how teams will likely try and stop our new style - i.e., strong blitz defence.

It was good to see but Wales were a busted flush at the time. I'm glad he got on though and he'll take heart from such an appearance. The fact that he was trusted to go in and chase the BP will be a big boost to him mentally. He looked decent without doing anything special. Just the standard RB showing.

Mr Tickle

bilston wrote: »

I'd be surprised if the team changes for England.

Italy will be interesting, I'd guess there's a chance we will see some of Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Earls and possibly Addison getting starts.

I'm hoping Dave Heffernan will get a spot in that squad too. He's been a very handy player for Connacht for years now. Kelleher will have earned the start so hopefully Heffernan gets the bench. Herring has been excellent but a rest might do him good.

Buer

kilns wrote: »

I think he will stick with the same team for England, long term the POM CJ and VDF is not the solution and frankly are not good enough a combination. I think the way Farrell will want to play will include more "athletic" type number 8 so I would expect to see Doris start for the Italy game with perhaps Deegan on the bench, giving possibly Stander a rest

Agreed. POM has played well and it's going to be very difficult to break up that back row given how well it just played in a crunch game.

I see Doris coming back into the 23 but on the bench only for now. To slot him straight back into the starting side would be a very ballsy move.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

Agreed. POM has played well and it's going to be very difficult to break up that back row given how well it just played in a crunch game.

I see Doris coming back into the 23 but on the bench only for now. To slot him straight back into the starting side would be a very ballsy move.

I don't understand this logic.


Im not saying the back row hasn't played well but still their is plenty of room for improvement. If Doris can improve the team I don't see why we have to stay with the status quo.



People complaint during the WC of the team not moving forward, not trying new things. I said at the time wait till the 6 nations and all that would be forgotten and so far it is.


Two wins and nobody wants to try Cooney at 9 anymore. Everyone wants to keep the same backrow which has spent the last 12 months getting absolutely murdered.



The 2 results haven't changed the fact that POM and VDF do not carry the ball. They are two players who are very similar and mean the back row is not balanced. Personally I think if Doris was playing 8 against Wales then it would have been a bigger win. I know we needed him against Scotland.



Having the option of POM on the bench to come on after 60mins and steer the team home with his experience I think would be excellent option.



If I was Eddie Jones and he thinks it will be Standar/VDF/POM he will be very happy man.

kilns

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't understand this logic.


Im not saying the back row hasn't played well but still their is plenty of room for improvement. If Doris can improve the team I don't see why we have to stay with the status quo.



People complaint during the WC of the team not moving forward, not trying new things. I said at the time wait till the 6 nations and all that would be forgotten and so far it is.


Two wins and nobody wants to try Cooney at 9 anymore. Everyone wants to keep the same backrow which has spent the last 12 months getting absolutely murdered.



The 2 results haven't changed the fact that POM and VDF do not carry the ball. They are two players who are very similar and mean the back row is not balanced. Personally I think if Doris was playing 8 against Wales then it would have been a bigger win. I know we needed him against Scotland.



Having the option of POM on the bench to come on after 60mins and steer the team home with his experience I think would be excellent option.



If I was Eddie Jones and he thinks it will be Standar/VDF/POM he will be very happy man.

I think it is trying to predict what Farrell will do and I doubt he will change the team for England. Yes I too would love to see Dorris and Cooney start as I think they too will improve the team but the team in the coaches eyes who did the business should be rewarded again with a start, we still have a lot of flaws and I think Twickenham will expose some of them but without Englands ball carriers they come down to our level in the ball carrying stakes beyond that I think we have better and more intelligent players so I think we will win. But again its a pity Cooney doesnt get an opportunity to show what he can do, Dorris will eventually

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

It was good to see but Wales were a busted flush at the time. I'm glad he got on though and he'll take heart from such an appearance. The fact that he was trusted to go in and chase the BP will be a big boost to him mentally. He looked decent without doing anything special. Just the standard RB showing.

For whatever reason I think RB will also have to deal with comments like this. Carbery does anything and he is a genius. RB does anything good and next part of sentence is some sort of reason why it doesn't matter.



Ireland is 4 years now waiting for Carbery to fullfill his promise but with his injury record it doesn't seem to happen. We need to look at alternatives. Whoever it is....is it Billy Burns, Ross Byrne or do we fast track H Byrne or Healy into the setup?


Hoping that Carbery might get fit while not giving another option time in the green jersey is a short sighted tactic. If Carbery is available then great, but if not we need someone available at 10 who can slot in for Sexton.

Buer

I've no idea how my comment about Ross Byrne doing well against a beaten Welsh side has become some vehicle for complaining about Carbery...

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't understand this logic.

It's the logic that everyone has been calling for; that form should be rewarded. Add in that it's probably our most difficult fixture, it's not ideal for an inexperienced player, essentially, be making their debut.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Everyone wants to keep the same backrow which has spent the last 12 months getting absolutely murdered.

This is evidently not true; yourself and other posters have said they would prefer Doris to start. Others want to keep the same backrow which has spent the last 2 matches playing well.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The 2 results haven't changed the fact that POM and VDF do not carry the ball. They are two players who are very similar and mean the back row is not balanced.

They are not being picked to carry the ball. I mentioned it earlier, but the more expansive gameplan may accommodate POM and VdF better; certainly moreso than with the one-out-runners game under Schmidt.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Personally I think if Doris was playing 8 against Wales then it would have been a bigger win. I know we needed him against Scotland.

Complete speculation.

Tbh Shef, this is pretty hard to take seriously given this post from you last week:

Shefwedfan wrote: »

At this stage I am in the mood to cheer on Wales, hopefully a hammering at home might bring some sort of chnage

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

I've no idea how my comment about Ross Byrne doing well against a beaten Welsh side has become some vehicle for complaining about Carbery...

Im not complaining about Carbery, I do find it funny no matter what R Byrne does it has to include a follow on statement


What I am saying is Ireland needs to invest time in another 10 to back up Sexton. Whoever that is. At the moment Carbery has to have a question mark as the number 2 10 in Ireland due to his injury record.



Not sure why you would call that complaining?

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

They are not being picked to carry the ball. I mentioned it earlier, but the more expansive gameplan may accommodate POM and VdF better; certainly moreso than with the one-out-runners game under Schmidt.

Indeed. This is getting overlooked. Our pack are carrying far less ball than they did in 2019. We're putting width on the ball with far more regularity now.

For context, against Scotland in the RWC (our dominant performance against a tier 1 side), the centres touched the ball 11 times. At the weekend, this jumps to 33 times despite Henshaw going off early.

Everyone in the pack with the possible exception of Ryan, is carrying less under Farrell. When they do carry, they tend to make a decent impact i.e. VDF's carry in the build up to the final try.

I sometimes watch this guy's videos. He picked his team of the week and has stats along with each player. Time and time again, the stats say the players did poorly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSK8syqiB5w

kilns

Buer wrote: »

Indeed. This is getting overlooked. Our pack are carrying far less ball than they did in 2019. We're putting width on the ball with far more regularity now.

For context, against Scotland in the RWC (our dominant performance against a tier 1 side), the centres touched the ball 11 times. At the weekend, this jumps to 33 times despite Henshaw going off early.

Everyone in the pack with the possible exception of Ryan, is carrying less under Farrell. When they do carry, they tend to make a decent impact i.e. VDF's carry in the build up to the final try.

We are catching teams out as they are not expecting it from Ireland, even Tipuric said he was surprised with how Ireland played on the weekend. However, that will soon be found out and will be defended against, so it would be great if we had the ability to have real good ball carriers too in the forwards which will keep defences guessing. I would think that is what Farrell would ultimately like a balance between both. For that kind of game we need a real dynamic back row. I dont think we will see it until possibly the Autumn internationals later in the year with hopefully Dorris and the "old" Leavy in the back row

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

It's the logic that everyone has been calling for; that form should be rewarded. Add in that it's probably our most difficult fixture, it's not ideal for an inexperienced player, essentially, be making their debut.



This is evidently not true; yourself and other posters have said they would prefer Doris to start. Others want to keep the same backrow which has spent the last 2 matches playing well.



They are not being picked to carry the ball. I mentioned it earlier, but the more expansive gameplan may accommodate POM and VdF better; certainly moreso than with the one-out-runners game under Schmidt.



Complete speculation.

Tbh Shef, this is pretty hard to take seriously given this post from you last week:

You do like pulling up posts from before. I was pi**ed at that stage about the lack of change with the team.



Are you saying the back row hasn't got murdered? because against NZ, Japan, England, Wales etc etc they got murdered last year. Even Scotland bullied them in this year 6 nations.


IT was a great win v Wales but lets not kid ourselves, Falateau was a shadow of himself.



England are a different beast, I do remember when Joe had Leinster he had his home/away team. I am not sure why Ireland couldn't follow something similar. We have a squad and mix it up with player to suit the opposition.


Ireland failed to move on last season, it ended up in a mess. I don't see why no lessons are learnt and we are back to picking the same team.





Maybe he will pick the same team.....I think it would be a chance lost

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do like pulling up posts from before. I was pi**ed at that stage about the lack of change with the team.

I just mentioned it as I think it was entirely knee-jerk to be hoping we lose in order to see change given it's the 2nd game of Farrell's tenure.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Are you saying the back row hasn't got murdered? because against NZ, Japan, England, Wales etc etc they got murdered last year. Even Scotland bullied them in this year 6 nations.

Nope, never said that. It's a strawman to suggest that I did.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

IT was a great win v Wales but lets not kid ourselves, Falateau was a shadow of himself.

England are a different beast, I do remember when Joe had Leinster he had his home/away team. I am not sure why Ireland couldn't follow something similar. We have a squad and mix it up with player to suit the opposition.

I think given the depth we have in some positions, we may see us moving towards a horses-for-courses selection. But injuries will probably be a bigger factor.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ireland failed to move on last season, it ended up in a mess. I don't see why no lessons are learnt and we are back to picking the same team.

Maybe he will pick the same team.....I think it would be a chance lost

Change doesn't just come from the teamsheet. It's really early in Farrell's rein to tell, but so far it appears that Ireland have moved on and learnt lessons based on the changes we've seen to the game plan.

kilns

aloooof wrote: »

I just mentioned it as I think it was entirely knee-jerk to be hoping we lose in order to see change given it's the 2nd game of Farrell's tenure.



Nope, never said that. It's a strawman to suggest that I did.



I think given the depth we have in some positions, we may see us moving towards a horses-for-courses selection. But injuries will probably be a bigger factor.



Change doesn't just come from the teamsheet. It's really early in Farrell's rein to tell, but so far it appears that Ireland have moved on and learnt lessons based on the changes we've seen to the game plan.

I think we can take an indication from Farrells first team selection of what he wanted in his back row by picking Doris at 8. Remains to be seen if he is bold enough to select him again for Twickenham only time will tell

car_radio19834

What more expansive gameplan are people seeing? It's very very basic.

Half of our tries on Saturday were again scored directly through the pack.

Where are the offloads and lads running on a shoulder?

kilns

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What more expansive gameplan are people seeing? It's very very basic.

Half of our tries on Saturday were again scored directly through the pack.

Where are the offloads and lads running on a shoulder?

You are not going to see a radical change of plan of just throwing it around, no team does that not even NZ. However you can see changes, our back 3 had their hands on the ball much more and the centres too

sydthebeat

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What more expansive gameplan are people seeing? It's very very basic.

did you watch the game on saturday?? it was the most expansive game we have played since the says of darcy BOd and Horgan.

our outside backs made 175 meters alone... through 10, yes thats 10!!! line breaks... you cannot do that if your game is not expansive

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Half of our tries on Saturday were again scored directly through the pack.

so... half our tries were scored by playing it away from contact through the backs ??
Thats a good sign of an all round game isnt it.

car_radio19834 wrote: »

Where are the offloads and lads running on a shoulder?

which game do you want?? expansive or tight?
play around the corner or through contact??
Henshaw was excellent on saturday at targeting the weak shoulder and powering through, and his offloads were spot on.

wales threw 13 offloads on saturday and arguably only profited from 2 of those (which lead to the first try)... so throwing offloads is not a guaranteed way to win a rugby game


sounds like you are more suited to watching a game of figi sevens to be honest

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

I think we can take an indication from Farrells first team selection of what he wanted in his back row by picking Doris at 8. Remains to be seen if he is bold enough to select him again for Twickenham only time will tell

I think that's fair, and I think Doris will get his chance. It just may not come in Twickenham. And if it doesn't, that's not the complete disaster some are painting it to be, imo.

Interested Observer

I really doubt we'll see any changes to the team after Saturday.

PMC83

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains

Interesting conversation between Thornley and Horgan this week.

Thornley pretty prickly! -Not happy with Horgans suggestion that Murray and Sexton arn't necessarily ageing like fine wine

Interested Observer

PMC83 wrote: »

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains

Interesting conversation between Thornley and Horgan this week.

Thornley pretty prickly! -Not happy with Horgans suggestion that Murray and Sexton arn't necessarily ageing like fine wine

Thought Thornley came across pretty badly tbh. I wonder if he posts here, straight into a great big huff at someone daring to have a different opinion to him.

PMC83

Interested Observer wrote: »

Thought Thornley came across pretty badly tbh. I wonder if he posts here, straight into a great big huff at someone daring to have a different opinion to him.

Yeah agreed, he almost seemed offended!

Dubinusa

It will be an interesting selection v's England. Indeed England minus Billy V and Tualagi are very beatable. Curry at 8 is not a good call imo. But we can only play what's in front of us.
As far as our gameplan goes I think it's been very good. A little mix and match. More spreading the field and a little less up the middle. The backs are in fine form too! There are some mistakes as we saw v's Scotland but they are playing some good rugby.
The fact that Stander was not flogged and used as a direct carrier much was a nice surprise. I think the Welsh were caught a little flat by our approach. But, the difference is our line out seems very competent atm. Last year it was undercooked and sometimes sloppy. Now, I think it's really clicking. Herring is playing great at hooker. It's become a strength!
I also think that Larmour is really causing the opposition defense problems, just with his presence. We have a fb that can really make things happen, out of nothing and his positioning seems to be improving. It's a gamble to fly up off the line and try to snare him. He has x factor in his DNA, lol.
So far, although we haven't seen too much in attrition, Farrell has improved the status quo imo. It's a better game plan and suits our strengths. Of course, we could be hammered at Twickers and then...... but for now, I think we are doing well!

molloyjh

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What more expansive gameplan are people seeing? It's very very basic.

Half of our tries on Saturday were again scored directly through the pack.

Where are the offloads and lads running on a shoulder?

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-attack-six-nations-henshaw-5001474-Feb2020/?utm_source=shortlink

Check out this link for more detail. We are only 2 games into the new coaching regime and change will take time, but we've seen a lot of really positive things already. Invention in the 22 for the try against Scotland in week 1 was something a lot of people were saying we were lacking.

The game at the weekend then saw us go to the backline a lot more than we had been, using width better, offloading and breaking the line more. Things broke down a but a few times in the Welsh 22, but that'll happen in the early stages of changing how we play.

Some simple stats to help outline the points mentioned and in the article. Last year vs Wales we made 118m, beat 11 defenders, made 3 clean breaks and offloaded twice. Just 2 games into the new regime and against the same opposition we made 322m, beat 17 defenders, made 11 clean breaks and offloaded 6 times. We're def going the right direction, but its important to note that we are there yet.

stephen_n

car_radio19834 wrote: »

What more expansive gameplan are people seeing? It's very very basic.

Half of our tries on Saturday were again scored directly through the pack.

Where are the offloads and lads running on a shoulder?

I think you’re looking for 7’s