Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Former Former

kilns wrote: »

Who would it be? Carberry is very injury prone

Someone who's not first or even second choice at their province yet. The current crop of out halves aren't of the required quality.

Same at scrum half.

Podge_irl

kilns wrote: »

Who would it be? Carberry is very injury prone

Harry Byrne, Frawley, some other player I've never heard of. Carberry in the interim possibly. Ross Byrne in a holding role for a while perhaps.

It is all well and good to want in invest in the future, but most signs indicate that won't be any of the players available right now.

roverjoyce

Does anybody know who our centrally contracted players and the time left on their contracts.

I think its time to stop giving long term contracts to the older players it should be year to year

whatawaster

Podge_irl wrote: »

The outhalf in RWC 2023 is very, very unlikely to be Burns or Byrne who are our only other options right now.

It 3.5 years away - there's always a chance it could be a 18/19 year old we haven't heard of yet, but chance are it's someone either established, or on the fringes at the provinces.

That means:

R Byrne
Frawley
H Byrne
Carbery
Healy
Carty
Fitzgerald
Burns
Johnston

are the most likely contenders. Byrne is one of the more likely contenders from that list.

kilns

Podge_irl wrote: »

Harry Byrne, Frawley, some other player I've never heard of. Carberry in the interim possibly. Ross Byrne in a holding role for a while perhaps.

It is all well and good to want in invest in the future, but most signs indicate that won't be any of the players available right now.

I hope those guys come through too but its all speculation we dont know how their carreers will development.

Byrne has played European level and more than held his own, even if he is not first choice come the world cup it would be great to have him with a lot of experience if others are not available.

sydthebeat

whatawaster wrote: »

It 3.5 years away - there's always a chance it could be a 18/19 year old we haven't heard of yet, but chance are it's someone either established, or on the fringes at the provinces.

That means:

R Byrne
Frawley
H Byrne
Carbery
Healy
Carty
Fitzgerald
Burns
Johnston

are the most likely contenders. Byrne is one of the more likely contenders from that list.

Jack Crowley could be a realistic shout as well

Clegg

Frawley needs to improve a lot before he's considered for test caps. He can be an excellent passer and kicker, but he's inconsistent. He was very poor against Ospreys and Ulster this season despite not being out under any sort of pressure.

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

Frawley needs to improve a lot before he's considered for test caps. He can be an excellent passer and kicker, but he's inconsistent. He was very poor against Ospreys and Ulster this season despite not being out under any sort of pressure.

Of the current selection at Leinster I think Frawley might be the one to lose out, not sure what it is but I don’t think he will make it as a 10

It was mentioned about him playing 15? I think it was onnleinster thread and I think he played a few games at 15 for Leinster

Shefwedfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Harry Byrne, Frawley, some other player I've never heard of. Carberry in the interim possibly. Ross Byrne in a holding role for a while perhaps.

It is all well and good to want in invest in the future, but most signs indicate that won't be any of the players available right now.

R Byrne has how many starts for Ireland? Talk to any international and they say it takes at least 10 caps before you can even get your feet, it seems people are in a huge rush to write him off after 1-2 caps

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

R Byrne has how many starts for Ireland? Talk to any international and they say it takes at least 10 caps before you can even get your feet, it seems people are in a huge rush to write him off after 1-2 caps

My opinion on Byrne isn't based off his international appearances. He plays a good role in an incredibly strong Leinster team but he has never really looked like he could take the next step. He's clearly trying to improve his game with coming to the line more etc. but its just not really his game.

He'll do a decent job I'm sure. But I don't expect him to hold down the jersey a la Sexton or ROG before him.

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Jack Crowley could be a realistic shout as well

Yeah. It's clearly far too early in his career to know how it's going to pan out, but I like what I've seen so far from him. He can kick, he can run, his pass is very good and he looks like he has the build to be able to carry it off.

kingofthekong

kilns wrote: »

Who would it be? Carberry is very injury prone

Harry Byrne would be my bet

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Harry Byrne, Frawley, some other player I've never heard of. Carberry in the interim possibly. Ross Byrne in a holding role for a while perhaps.

It is all well and good to want in invest in the future, but most signs indicate that won't be any of the players available right now.

I think RB in a holding role is sensible but I don't think he has the physical talent to be a good test level outhalf.

Carbery has that physical talent but struggles to put it together with fitness and decision making. Frawley isn't the answer, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see his long term future as an outhalf at this point.

HB could be the one but we'll have to wait and see. He looks to have a nice combination of athleticism and his brother's rugby brain. But he hasn't had any sort of test in professional rugby yet; could be great, could be a squad player at provincial level.

I wouldn't rule out Bill Johnston either. Has the physical talents and seems a fairly composed performer. If Ulster get him 10-15 starts in a season, we could really see him move to another level and possibly go past Burns.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Someone who's not first or even second choice at their province yet. The current crop of out halves aren't of the required quality.

Same at scrum half.

Murray isn’t of the required quality. Hasn’t been for a year now.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

I think RB in a holding role is sensible but I don't think he has the physical talent to be a good test level outhalf.

Carbery has that physical talent but struggles to put it together with fitness and decision making. Frawley isn't the answer, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see his long term future as an outhalf at this point.

HB could be the one but we'll have to wait and see. He looks to have a nice combination of athleticism and his brother's rugby brain. But he hasn't had any sort of test in professional rugby yet; could be great, could be a squad player at provincial level.

I wouldn't rule out Bill Johnston either. Has the physical talents and seems a fairly composed performer. If Ulster get him 10-15 starts in a season, we could really see him move to another level and possibly go past Burns.

Carbery is lighter to Byrne, well he looked it to me from games in RDS, Byrne looked taller and heavier. Carbery always looked slight


Of course that is naked eye,might be wrong

kilns

Farrell took the decision to play with an underpowered pack. Any pack with Toner, POM and VDF and going to be most like second best in the power stakes. It might be fine against the Scottish of this world but when we knew what England were going to bring to the table it was complete Rugby suicide. If you can match England physically then you know you have a very good chance of beating them.

For all those who laughed at people bemoaning the fact that Ruddock was left totally out of the squad, it was days like yesterday when he would have been needed. We dont have to be rigid and can pick horses for courses.

whatawaster

awec wrote: »

Murray isn’t of the required quality. Hasn’t been for a year now.

This.

Any credit Murray had in the bank for his past performances is now 100% gone in terms of selection imo.

Cooney is playing great and McGrath has been very good for Leinster.

yerrahbah

Hard to judge based on yesterday but I don't think Toner will be displacing Henderson anytime soon

Panda Killa

yerrahbah wrote: »

Hard to judge based on yesterday but I don't think Toner will be displacing Henderson anytime soon

Personally I think they should both be behind Dillane

Bridge93

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carbery is lighter to Byrne, well he looked it to me from games in RDS, Byrne looked taller and heavier. Carbery always looked slight


Of course that is naked eye,might be wrong

I dont think he means physical talent in the sense of bodyweight or physicality. Think its more a comment on Carbery possessing the tangible ability to be a standout performer at test level. Ability that Ross Byrne for all his strengths doesnt have. He's a solid all rounder whereas Carbery has the spark etc but just can tget any consistency or run of games free from injury.

Buer

Bridge93 wrote: »

I dont think he means physical talent in the sense of bodyweight or physicality. Think its more a comment on Carbery possessing the tangible ability to be a standout performer at test level. Ability that Ross Byrne for all his strengths doesnt have. He's a solid all rounder whereas Carbery has the spark etc but just can tget any consistency or run of games free from injury.

Correct. Physical ability isn't just power. Carbery is clearly a more athletic player with greater speed, acceleration, passing ability etc. Byrne is a bigger player (which makes him a very capable defender in the same way Sexton is) but he will never be able to threaten the defensive line in the same way although he has clearly worked hard on these items.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Murray isn’t of the required quality. Hasn’t been for a year now.

No, he hasn't. But the question was about a long-term successor. Any of the current alternatives at 9 are stop-gaps IMO.

KWAG2019

Management needs to ring the changes. Murray has had a long fun of poor form. Sexton isn’t at his best. Toner is a good sub to bring on. It’s hard to tell but Farrell seems to be thinking of a more running game. Good comment on tv panel last night was that given limitations in pack physicality then looking at Japanese style change might be needed.

razorblunt

yerrahbah wrote: »

Hard to judge based on yesterday but I don't think Toner will be displacing Henderson anytime soon

Toner shouldn't be displacing anyone.
He either starts or nothing, he's not a bench option and there's no way you'd start him.

razorblunt

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Management needs to ring the changes. Murray has had a long fun of poor form. Sexton isn’t at his best. Toner is a good sub to bring on. It’s hard to tell but Farrell seems to be thinking of a more running game. Good comment on tv panel last night was that given limitations in pack physicality then looking at Japanese style change might be needed.

It's easy to call out Japan but there's no way you'd get exclusivity to the players. Let's see how Japan look outside the World Cup as they 100% focused on that.

Granny15

kilns wrote: »

If you wanted one man to help negate English physical dominance, Farrell left him out of the entire squad and that was Ruddock. If its horses for courses and you need to match England then there is no place for POM and VDF as they dont match up physically.

VDF is literally the best player in Ireland this season. 2 MOTM perfomrances against the top sides in England and France - both [physically domineering teams. I suggest its the makeup of the Irish gamelpan that isn't suiting them. Against a team like England you have to outrun them and beat them to every breakdown and contest. If you don't contest they will steamroll you. He's not being used in the right way.

POM had what I would call a good game. He outperformed most IRish forwards and showed a bit of comtetitiveness/niggle to take the game to England. IT's true he doesn't carry well and we might be better off bringing in someone who can - like Doris. ButI'm a proponent of you pick what you have and make them competitive. That comes from coaching and I'm willing to give the coaches time to get there. POM might/should be dropped but he and VDF didn't perform badly. Size isn't the issue - technique is.

Brewster

It does feel like we are in transition mode now for a season or two. Murray has been a fantastic player, but his time is gone. He is zero threat with ball in hand from the base of the ruck. Opposition teams know this. Cooney can attack, can step at great speed and can simply play a more rounded game. Will he make some mistakes along the way? Of course he will, but his overall game is simply too good to ignore now. Ireland have become too one dimensional and this needs to change. The game has moved on. Cooney will start against Italy and play well and should then hold onto the jersey for France. So the change many people wanted to see will inevitably be forced on Farrell I feel.. People like ROG championing Murray is wrong. You simply cannot make a credible argument for keeping Murray in the team now.

The case around Sexton is different. The replacements are probably not up to the standard at this point. ( oh how I am wish the Jackson situation had turned out differently, he’d be playing now.) He is also our captain. Perhaps Cooney coming in could spark Sexton and take some of the pressure off him. Personally I would stick with Sexton.

There are not too many more changes that we can make? I’d love to see McCloskey get a chance, I think he has that raw power to get us over the gain line and generate front foot ball. We simply didn’t win any collisions yesterday when it mattered. I’d love to see McCloskey and Ringrose together. I think McCloskey has the off loading ability to bring Ringrose into the game.

I don’t see any value in dropping Stockdale, he needs to be coached through this, his potential and ability is unquestioned, but defensive team need to work with him. He is still the future.

Hendo plays every time. We really missed his physicality yesterday. It’s only when he doesn’t play that this becomes evident. He does so much unseen work in the tight. Doris will get a run now also and I’d expect him to start last two games.

Granny15

Former Former wrote: »

Someone who's not first or even second choice at their province yet. The current crop of out halves aren't of the required quality.

Same at scrum half.

Healy could be a possibility. I think it will be him and younger Byrne vying for the 10 spot for the next ten years if streamlined correctly.

prawnsambo

Brewster wrote: »

It does feel like we are in transition mode now for a season or two. Murray has been a fantastic player, but his time is gone. He is zero threat with ball in hand from the base of the ruck. Opposition teams know this. Cooney can attack, can step at great speed and can simply play a more rounded game. Will he make some mistakes along the way? Of course he will, but his overall game is simply too good to ignore now. Ireland have become too one dimensional and this needs to change. The game has moved on. Cooney will start against Italy and play well and should then hold onto the jersey for France. So the change many people wanted to see will inevitably be forced on Farrell I feel.. People like ROG championing Murray is wrong. You simply cannot make a credible argument for keeping Murray in the team now.

The case around Sexton is different. The replacements are probably not up to the standard at this point. ( oh how I am wish the Jackson situation had turned out differently, he’d be playing now.) He is also our captain. Perhaps Cooney coming in could spark Sexton and take some of the pressure off him. Personally I would stick with Sexton.

There are not too many more changes that we can make? I’d love to see McCloskey get a chance, I think he has that raw power to get us over the gain line and generate front foot ball. We simply didn’t win any collisions yesterday when it mattered. I’d love to see McCloskey and Ringrose together. I think McCloskey has the off loading ability to bring Ringrose into the game.

I don’t see any value in dropping Stockdale, he needs to be coached through this, his potential and ability is unquestioned, but defensive team need to work with him. He is still the future.

Hendo plays every time. We really missed his physicality yesterday. It’s only when he doesn’t play that this becomes evident. He does so much unseen work in the tight. Doris will get a run now also and I’d expect him to start last two games.

I agree. Cooney's high tempo game would suit Sexton more I think. And we definitely needed Henderson yesterday. Just a pity he couldn't make it. In hindsight, England fairly telegraphed their intentions with the selection of five locks and five centres in their squad. They intended to bully us and it worked. We looked shell-shocked after their fast start and only after the break did we get some semblance of possession and territory. But the damage had been done by then.

Granny15

Buer wrote: »

Correct. Physical ability isn't just power. Carbery is clearly a more athletic player with greater speed, acceleration, passing ability etc. Byrne is a bigger player (which makes him a very capable defender in the same way Sexton is) but he will never be able to threaten the defensive line in the same way although he has clearly worked hard on these items.

I thought Sextons defending was woeful on Sunday. He tries to take the contact catch the attacker and pull him to deck much the way Ross Byrne does. You have to lead with your shoulder into the tackle and too much being wrapped in cotton wool and letting players go to deck in training has affected how he defends. You can't defend like that against England. They don't simply go to deck on first sign of contact - they stay on their feet and drive the defender backwards. Carberry hits and leads with the shoulder.