Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

No, he hasn't. But the question was about a long-term successor. Any of the current alternatives at 9 are stop-gaps IMO.

Not sure how people are discounting the options when they have had little chance to play, McGrath, Cooney, Blade etc have all had little to no time at international level....all have shined for club in Europe

I have discounted Marmion as he seems to be out of the discussion

AbusesToilets

POM had a decent game yesterday, was more involved than usual. I cringed though when he threw that pass out to Stockdale, iirc. If Farrell wants to play a more attacking style, the players need to be capable and comfortable passing effectively.

We're still not using VdF to maximize his talents. He runs supports Reay well for Leinster, nary a peep of that for Ireland.

prawnsambo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

POM had a decent game yesterday, was more involved than usual. I cringed though when he threw that pass out to Stockdale, iirc. If Farrell wants to play a more attacking style, the players need to be capable and comfortable passing effectively.

We're still not using VdF to maximize his talents. He runs supports Reay well for Leinster, nary a peep of that for Ireland.

JvdF also gets out on the wing regularly for Leinster and is great option against wingers/full backs. According to the 6N stats, he only got the ball twice yesterday.

Anatom

We need a complete shake-up of the team. Now that the championship and Triple Crown is gone we should throw caution to the wind and blood a few young guys for our remaining games.

For example, Murray is a fabulous player, has been a great servant for Ireland, and I thought he had a great game against Wales, but he really is finished with Ireland now. I'd almost also say the same for Sexton. They seemed to both spend a lot of time yesterday giving out to the ref, to each other, or to their teammates, rather than concentrating on their own games - Sexton especially, and not for the first time.

Perhaps a "super-sub" role might be the compromise for both of them..?

Shefwedfan

Anatom wrote: »

We need a complete shake-up of the team. Now that the championship and Triple Crown is gone we should throw caution to the wind and blood a few young guys for our remaining games.

For example, Murray is a fabulous player, has been a great servant for Ireland, and I thought he had a great game against Wales, but he really is finished with Ireland now. I'd almost also say the same for Sexton. They seemed to both spend a lot of time yesterday giving out to the ref, to each other, or to their teammates, rather than concentrating on their own games - Sexton especially, and not for the first time.

Perhaps a "super-sub" role might be the compromise for both of them..?

The championship is not gone

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure how people are discounting the options when they have had little chance to play, McGrath, Cooney, Blade etc have all had little to no time at international level....all have shined for club in Europe

I think this would be point where people would disagree.

Byrne is a decent cog in a well oiled machine. But nothing he has done stands out massively for me at provincial level (bar his "kick passing" for want of a better phrase, which really is top class).

He is fairly slow and doesn't really challenge the line at all. He is an incredibly competent player who would be a fine person to call upon if the need arises but he is also a significant step down from what we've had in the position and won't be able to hold off a decent challenge for long.

prawnsambo

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think this would be point where people would disagree.

Byrne is a decent cog in a well oiled machine. But nothing he has done stands out massively for me at provincial level (bar his "kick passing" for want of a better phrase, which really is top class).

He is fairly slow and doesn't really challenge the line at all. He is an incredibly competent player who would be a fine person to call upon if the need arises but he is also a significant step down from what we've had in the position and won't be able to hold off a decent challenge for long.

We've a fair few prospects though. The problem is time to develop them. So we'll probably be stop-gapping for a while, probably starting with the Australia tour. But I think we have enough prospects for at least one to come through.

Anatom

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The championship is not gone

I disagree. I cannot see us beating France, especially the way we played against Scotland and against England.

prawnsambo

Anatom wrote: »

I disagree. I cannot see us beating France, especially the way we played against Scotland and against England.

Yeah. Very unlikely. Not impossible, but France are showing that they have a spine for once and that bodes ill for everyone. Except them of course.

Burkie1203

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Very unlikely. Not impossible, but France are showing that they have a spine for once and that bodes ill for everyone. Except them of course.

We haven't exactly got a stellar record away to Wales when Edwards was defence coach.

Expect more of the same.

Very hard to comment on the game yesterday when we were so comprehensively beaten. As usual I barely look at the forum after an Ireland loss as the shoulder chips come out in force, so apologies if anything below has already been said:

Speed & Accuracy
The absence of these two things contributed more than any other factor to our loss yesterday. We failed to impose any part of our game plan on England because we consistently lost collisions. To win collisions against a team like England you either need similarly powerful carriers (South Africa) or you need to move the ball quickly and accurately to generate consistent momentum (Ireland U20's). If you move the ball quickly through phases and bring runners onto the ball, you get go forward even against a more powerful team. Leinster do it, the Ireland under 20's do it, but the Ireland senior team could not.

The single most absurdly frustrating aspect of our play yesterday was the sheer volume of breakdowns where we managed to generate fast ball and chose not to move the ball quickly. I don't know if this is coaching or Murray's decision making but it *killed* us. I don't think Murray was subbed solely because he was having an off day - we badly needed a kicker on the pitch and I'd say Sexton's meltdown at the tee had as much to do with Murray's early substitution as his own disappointing performance. On a side note - I was critical of Heinz in the France v England game for allowing himself to get snagged peeling away from the breakdown and Cooney fell foul of the same thing - one of the differences between club and international rugby he'll need to be mindful of in future.

Midfield distribution
I think the other really notable aspect of the game yesterday was the absence of Ringrose. I don't think we can beat a team like England without a second distributor in midfield. Sexton's best period of the game came at 12 and we saw a few glimpses of what we might have been hoping to do in that last 20 when we were able to get the ball wide.

Aki has a solid offloading game and Henshaw isn't a bad passing 13, but the range, speed and accuracy of passing options that Ringrose has is superior to both and when mixed with his footwork and offload in the tackle we are a much less predictable team.

What next?
I'm not that optimistic to be honest. England by all accounts were having the time of their lives battering us and winding us up and I feel had they been more focused on the tournament outcome they would have run a few more tries over us and I fully believe that they could have.

I think we are going to continue to get beaten up by teams if we have all of Toner, VDF, POM and Stander on the pitch at once. We don't get near enough go forward and we aren't able to absorb pressure in defence. The turnover count yesterday is a huge embarrassment to this team and we need an urgent rethink before France.

I felt that Herring was a placeholder for Kelleher based on early season form. Herring has been much more solid in green and abrasive than I had expected, but Kelleher is a much more dynamic carrier and based on the teams needs I'd be starting him for the remainder.

Doris is going to have to come into the back row, and against France / England I'd be picking a fit Leavy at 7 over VDF who couldn't impose himself on the game yesterday.

I think we have to bring Cooney into start at 9. Sexton was the more obviously off form of the halves yesterday but overall he is playing well and the replacements aren't close. Murray on the other hand has a competitor that I believe is less gifted overall but in better form and playing a style that will help us deal with teams like England more effectively.

I don't know what to do about Stockdale. He is a game winner for us and has been on a few key occasions. But his decision making and composure are pretty terrible at the moment and he is second guessing himself in this new environment. I'd be inclined to drop him into the 23 jersey and let him run at tired defences to rebuild his confidence.

If I was picking a team for France right now it would look like this:

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Ryan
Henderson
Stander
VDF
Doris
Cooney
Sexton
Earls
Henshaw
Ringrose
Conway
Larmour

Kilcoyne
Herring
Furlong
Dillane
Deegan
McGrath
Byrne
Stockdale

Shefwedfan

Anatom wrote: »

I disagree. I cannot see us beating France, especially the way we played against Scotland and against England.

Never admit a mistake :-)

So you think we will lose but that doesn’t mean the championship is gone

Ireland should and will beat Italy with a bonus point , Ireland can beat France, a couple of small tweaks is all that is needed.....ireland no longer fear playing in France

Shefwedfan

^^^ team above but with Healy out and Kilcoyne in your start

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Never admit a mistake :-)

So you think we will lose but that doesn’t mean the championship is gone

Ireland should and will beat Italy with a bonus point , Ireland can beat France, a couple of small tweaks is all that is needed.....ireland no longer fear playing in France

I admire your optimism (and I hope it's well-founded), but France look like a team with few of their past failings. They're still a little bit raw, but they have completely bought into Shaun Edwards' defensive strategy and are really very aggressive in defense. It'll be like playing Wales of old, in Cardiff but with an even better skillset.

Shefwedfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

I admire your optimism (and I hope it's well-founded), but France look like a team with few of their past failings. They're still a little bit raw, but they have completely bought into Shaun Edwards' defensive strategy and are really very aggressive in defense. It'll be like playing Wales of old, in Cardiff but with an even better skillset.

Still they are letting in tries, England and Wales could have won

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Still they are letting in tries, England and Wales could have won

Yeah. But there was always two things you could rely on with France in the past: That they'd suffer injuries to players released back to their clubs and conversely would improve as the tournament wore on. They've now eliminated the first one...

aloooof

prawnsambo wrote: »

JvdF also gets out on the wing regularly for Leinster and is great option against wingers/full backs. According to the 6N stats, he only got the ball twice yesterday.

I think this is fair, tbh, I just wish that level of caveat / nuance was afforded to other players by some other posters. Otherwise, I fear we'd be hearing "went missing / going got tough / doesn't fancy it" type stuff.

ArmchairQB

kilns wrote: »

Farrell took the decision to play with an underpowered pack. Any pack with Toner, POM and VDF and going to be most like second best in the power stakes. It might be fine against the Scottish of this world but when we knew what England were going to bring to the table it was complete Rugby suicide. If you can match England physically then you know you have a very good chance of beating them.

For all those who laughed at people bemoaning the fact that Ruddock was left totally out of the squad, it was days like yesterday when he would have been needed. We dont have to be rigid and can pick horses for courses.

Totally agree days like Yesterday were made for the likes of Ruddock who doesn't even make the training squad

prawnsambo

aloooof wrote: »

I think this is fair, tbh, I just wish that level of caveat / nuance was afforded to other players by some other posters. Otherwise, I fear we'd be hearing "went missing / going got tough / doesn't fancy it" type stuff.

Also in the 'only got the ball twice' stakes was Cian Healy. Who made 9 metres from his two carries. And was only on the pitch for 25 minutes yet seems to be getting stick for not being at his best.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

I think this is fair, tbh, I just wish that level of caveat / nuance was afforded to other players by some other posters. Otherwise, I fear we'd be hearing "went missing / going got tough / doesn't fancy it" type stuff.

Difference is one game and then 12 months of poor performance

At some stage people will have to admit players need to get moved out of the team, no matter what province they play for, either we will have a team of 50-60 year old running around :-)

Faugheen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Difference is one game and then 12 months of poor performance

At some stage people will have to admit players need to get moved out of the team, no matter what province they play for, either we will have a team of 50-60 year old running around :-)

Exactly this.

Some players have off days. Others have form for it

Dubinusa

How can we judge any 9 or 10? They aren't given a chance. RB has played more games for Leinster over the past couple of seasons and he's been good. If anything, the notion that a 34 yr old oh who plays so little throughout the course of the year is our only 10 is insane. We finally are coming to a crux with the half backs and we now see the errors of Schmidt not trusting others.
Ross Byrne is a fantastic controller. He would have been more than ready if he was used earlier in his career. Same with Carberry etc. I'm not saying Byrne is the future.... but Sexton is the past! Time to move on. Sexton was the worst player on the field, by a mile on Saturday.
Our backline has some game changers! Larmour will be everything we wanted at fb! Ringrose is pure brilliance and Conway is the best wing by a mile. We don't use them enough! No strategy to bring the ball to Larmour and have him create space.
Hopefully Farrell doesn't do a Schmidt and is willing to make the hard choices!
I think Ross Byrne should get both remaining starts alongside Cooney. Murray should be dropped completely. Sexton could bench! Why not? We'll beat Italy and regardless of what happens in France, other lads will have gained experience.

lawrencesummers

Dubinusa wrote: »

How can we judge any 9 or 10? They aren't given a chance. RB has played more games for Leinster over the past couple of seasons and he's been good. If anything, the notion that a 34 yr old oh who plays so little throughout the course of the year is our only 10 is insane. We finally are coming to a crux with the half backs and we now see the errors of Schmidt not trusting others.
Ross Byrne is a fantastic controller. He would have been more than ready if he was used earlier in his career. Same with Carberry etc. I'm not saying Byrne is the future.... but Sexton is the past! Time to move on. Sexton was the worst player on the field, by a mile on Saturday.
Our backline has some game changers! Larmour will be everything we wanted at fb! Ringrose is pure brilliance and Conway is the best wing by a mile. We don't use them enough! No strategy to bring the ball to Larmour and have him create space.
Hopefully Farrell doesn't do a Schmidt and is willing to make the hard choices!
I think Ross Byrne should get both remaining starts alongside Cooney. Murray should be dropped completely. Sexton could bench! Why not? We'll beat Italy and regardless of what happens in France, other lads will have gained experience.

If sexton was from any other province there is no question that he would be dropped after that performance, but the fact that he is a Leinster player and has escaped a lot of criticism along with the legacy of smidths undroppable players means there is no real competition for his place. You won’t see any people in the media suggesting he be benched because of his poor performance.

There was no problem calling for POM to be dropped, Because his performances where below par and he was dropped. The same should happen sexton.

Drop him for the Italy game, and let him seek redemption in Paris.

Dubinusa

We have been horsed by England 3'x in a row. One thing that comes to mind is... why didn't it happen more?
I think that SOB was made for these matches! We don't have anyone within a mile of a healthy, young SOB.
Stander is the closest to him , but not close to his level!
England in the past couldn't negate SOB. He was too explosive and strong. He was our Billy V.
Anyway was just thinking back...

Podge_irl

Dubinusa wrote: »

We have been horsed by England 3'x in a row. One thing that comes to mind is... why didn't it happen more?
I think that SOB was made for these matches! We don't have anyone within a mile of a healthy, young SOB.
Stander is the closest to him , but not close to his level!
England in the past couldn't negate SOB. He was too explosive and strong. He was our Billy V.
Anyway was just thinking back...

Didn't seem to matter in 2018.

Our problems extended far beyond one player yesterday anyway.

Dubinusa

In 2018, Sexton was the best player in the world. Furlong was the best th and Healy was having a renaissance. We were incredibly strong in the tight 5.
A year later , Furlong is not at his peak! Best is really only a 40 minute player. No Leavy and Murray completely awful.
2018 the pieces fell into place. 2019 they unraveled.
A healthy SOB was a difference maker, imo. VDF is brilliant. He'd be brilliant for England alongside Lawes and Billy V. Alongside POM and Stander....
We need ballast! We don't have it.

Podge_irl

One player just isn't going to make that much of a difference. Look at Ryan - he was bringing a lot of aggression (potentially to the point of illegality in some clearouts tbh) and generally had a pretty good game. Its not enough when the whole pack and halfbacks are falling apart around you.

Kenny B

England were hungrier and stronger and had a ruthless manner from the get go, they were not going to be bullied.

I keep seeing comments about how Leinster dominate teams and we should do what they do, against Club teams that's possible, against Intl teams it's not as easy.

Ringrose looks fabulous for Leinster, but in the last year is a shadow of himself for Ireland, He just tucks the ball under his arm and runs up blind alleys, releasing the ball too late (if he even does), Larmour is the same, 1st thought is to run even if the better option is to pass, he has more time against Clubs but looks lost against Top teams,

The sooner Addison is fit the better, Henshaw is a poor man's Aki who like Stander & Ryan does heroic stuff all day long, McCloskey should be next in line at 12, big and has decent hands.

As for Stockdale, he's just shocking, intercept tries are all good but he can't tackle and looks as lost as Larmour.

For me its a Midfield of Aki/Farrell for France with Addison at FB & 2 of Conway/Earls/Larmour on the wings, (no idea who's fit)

VDF or POM, it has to be one or the other from now on, Doris looked like a beast late in the game and at least Ryan showed a bit of bite but he's no enforcer, Toner good grief,

Healy hasn't come back from the WC yet and Furlong looks like he is dipping in form, the sooner the 6N finishes the better for these guys so they can regroup with Leinster and come back stronger, Kilcoyne is way ahead at present but does tend to be a better finisher,

Need a hooker and soon, Kelleher gets a shot because no else has put their hand up, so he should be given the chance to own the jersey,

kilns

lawrencesummers wrote: »

If sexton was from any other province there is no question that he would be dropped after that performance, but the fact that he is a Leinster player and has escaped a lot of criticism along with the legacy of smidths undroppable players means there is no real competition for his place. You won’t see any people in the media suggesting he be benched because of his poor performance.

There was no problem calling for POM to be dropped, Because his performances where below par and he was dropped. The same should happen sexton.

Drop him for the Italy game, and let him seek redemption in Paris.

What sort of rubbish is this? Bring your provincial crap elsewhere

kilns

Dubinusa wrote: »

We have been horsed by England 3'x in a row. One thing that comes to mind is... why didn't it happen more?
I think that SOB was made for these matches! We don't have anyone within a mile of a healthy, young SOB.
Stander is the closest to him , but not close to his level!
England in the past couldn't negate SOB. He was too explosive and strong. He was our Billy V.
Anyway was just thinking back...

We go into the games with a lightweight pack including Toner, POM and VDF. We are always going to get blown away physically.