Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes, because that was the game plan. For evidence please see Aviva 2019

Yes. I know. But there's a lot less empty space to kick into had Larmour been positioned in the middle of the pitch. So Ford has to kick more towards the touch lines on either side. There are no certainties when chasing a bouncing ball, but you should at least make the option a tougher choice.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. I know. But there's a lot less empty space to kick into had Larmour been positioned in the middle of the pitch. So Ford has to kick more towards the touch lines on either side. There are no certainties when chasing a bouncing ball, but you should at least make the option a tougher choice.

There would have been a lot less space to kick into had the second player not joined the line prematurely. All of it would have been irrelevant had Sexton not completely ****ed up. Easy enough to say all these things with absolutely no insight into what the system really is.

But a simple question I have from the outside is: If you're going to switch from a 13-2 to a 14-1, why would the trigger for that come before the opposition are in your 22?

Shefwedfan

gggggggg

sydthebeat wrote: »

I'd have expected one of at least Sexton or larmour to have called for that ball.

By the way larmour slowed it would appear Sexton made a call

From my viewing Sexton made the call as Larmour pulled out.....Larmour should have made the call but its a young player v Sexton so understandable. Next time he will tell Sexton to f**k off


If Larmour had to go for it, he didn't have English player on his back like Sexton so even if he struggled to gather the English player would of had to adjust his run so maybe got away withit


Its all hindsight

kilns

Granny15 wrote: »

VDF is the best player in the country this season. To place blame on him when the whole pack got hosed is misguided. There were good performances from POM Ryan as well. What killed us was their carriers breaking the gain line constantly getting them going forward. If very hard for a pack to impose themselves when going back 10 metres with every carry. The game was won and lost in the 10 12 channels and on the gainline

Thats not what I was saying, I am a big fan of VDF, my point is they are lightweight in comparason to a big English pack, perhaps you can carry one "smaller" guy but not 3. Its why I would have had Ruddock as a definite starter against England in place of POM and in fairness it was a pity Henderson was not there instead of Toner

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There would have been a lot less space to kick into had the second player not joined the line prematurely. All of it would have been irrelevant had Sexton not completely ****ed up. Easy enough to say all these things with absolutely no insight into what the system really is.

But a simple question I have from the outside is: If you're going to switch from a 13-2 to a 14-1, why would the trigger for that come before the opposition are in your 22?

We're all guessing here. But i suspect that the trigger would be something definitive like them reaching our 22 alright. They were only a couple of metres outside it from the ruck position before the kick. Again, with my hindsight specs on, there really should have been another player back. It's the kind of position that England liked to kick from. And they would clearly have been on the look out for the switch. So if we were confused about our defensive alignment, it just made it easier for them.

Sexton absolutely messed it up. And for the record, Larmour left him to it and ran a blocking line on Farrell (I think), who was actually the closest chaser to Sexton. But whatever the defensive formation was, the full back should be positioning himself according to what the on-field alignment is, not what he thinks it should be.

Captain_Crash

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But a simple question I have from the outside is: If you're going to switch from a 13-2 to a 14-1, why would the trigger for that come before the opposition are in your 22?

This is why I think it lands at Stockdale's door. He appears to have been too hasty in coming up into the line. Looking at Kinsella's screen grab he's a yard short of the line so im guessing this is taken just as he joins it and Ford clearly identified this and immediately put a kick trough knowing Larmour was out of position. This was because he either didn't know Stocks had moved up or he just didn't adjust in time.



I'm not blaming Stockdale per se, but him moving up when he did opened the door for Ford.

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If there were supposed to be 2 back covering then he wasn't out of position

Imo, that's not a good enough excuse. He should have identified that there weren't 2 backs covering and re-adjusted his position accordingly.

In a similar way if a winger goes down injured, the outside centre will re-adjust. Saying "the winger was supposed to be there" doesn't cut it.

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

gggggggg

From my viewing Sexton made the call as Larmour pulled out.....Larmour should have made the call but its a young player v Sexton so understandable. Next time he will tell Sexton to f**k off

If Larmour had to go for it, he didn't have English player on his back like Sexton so even if he struggled to gather the English player would of had to adjust his run so maybe got away withit

Its all hindsight

To be fair to Larmour, he didn't really slow up, he went for a blocking line on Sexton's chaser (Farrell I think). He reacted well to the situation imo. Just could have set up better to the ruck and maybe discouraged the kick in the first place. For the record, I absolutely do not want top see him dropped. These situations happen and players learn from them. As do the coaching team. It might even have been a better option to just shepherd the ball dead rather than try and catch it.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

But whatever the defensive formation was, the full back should be positioning himself according to what the on-field alignment is, not what he thinks it should be.

So what you're saying is that he should theoretically have instantly reacted to a player incorrectly joining the line and covered across with absolutely no allowance for latency for him to recognise the other player's mistake. He should not only be focused on his job, but also instantly react to whoever the other player was who potentially didn't do theirs without us even knowing if that player made any sort of communication to let him know they were joining the line.

Because he is the one we can see in the picture of a defensive system we don't actually know, he should be the scapegoat.

This is an insane level of over-analysis

Shefwedfan

To be honest and if we take a step back. England are number 2 in the World. At the moment if we look at Ireland we would probably struggle to beat England/SA/NZ and maybe France in Paris.

After that we can beat more or less every other team. Yes some days we will lose but majority of time we would win.

That is not a bad starting point for Farrell.

We don't have the resources or money England/France do. The picture of Jones slapping the SA guy on the back after they killed our scrum, IRFU cannot afford to hire the level of coachs Jones have around him. Same with France, I am sure Farrell would of liked to go out and sign Edwards but did he have the money? probably not.

So at this stage, 50% through the 6 nations we are probably about right. It was always going to be hard to beat England in Twickers, especially as first game back after WC. The press was on teams back and calls for Jones to get sacked so they had a purpose about them. You seen this in Jones interview after the game with Farrel for the press.

So still in top 4/5 in the World and with the ability to improve. Not a bad place after 3 games

Captain_Crash

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what you're saying is that he should theoretically have instantly reacted to a player incorrectly joining the line and covered across with absolutely no allowance for latency for him to recognise the other player's mistake. He should not only be focused on his job, but also instantly react to whoever the other player was who potentially didn't do theirs without us even knowing if that player made any sort of communication to let him know they were joining the line.

Because he is the one we can see in the picture of a defensive system we don't actually know, he should be the scapegoat.

This is an insane level of over-analysis

I agree with you here. Technically Larmour was out of position for the kick, but it was a direct result of Stocks joining the line either early or without a call (or both, its all guesswork for us). What I'll slightly disagree with is that it is part of a players job to identify errors in play from your teammates, but it all happened so quick that I don't think he cant be blamed for not adjusting in time.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest and if we take a step back. England are number 2 in the World. At the moment if we look at Ireland we would probably struggle to beat England/SA/NZ and maybe France in Paris.

After that we can beat more or less every other team. Yes some days we will lose but majority of time we would win.

That is not a bad starting point for Farrell.

We don't have the resources or money England/France do. The picture of Jones slapping the SA guy on the back after they killed our scrum, IRFU cannot afford to hire the level of coachs Jones have around him. Same with France, I am sure Farrell would of liked to go out and sign Edwards but did he have the money? probably not.

So at this stage, 50% through the 6 nations we are probably about right. It was always going to be hard to beat England in Twickers, especially as first game back after WC. The press was on teams back and calls for Jones to get sacked so they had a purpose about them. You seen this in Jones interview after the game with Farrel for the press.

So still in top 4/5 in the World and with the ability to improve. Not a bad place after 3 games

I don't think the criticism is necessarily because of the loss to England in Twickenham; it's more the manner of the loss / performance.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what you're saying is that he should theoretically have instantly reacted to a player incorrectly joining the line and covered across with absolutely no allowance for latency for him to recognise the other player's mistake. He should not only be focused on his job, but also instantly react to whoever the other player was who potentially didn't do theirs without us even knowing if that player made any sort of communication to let him know they were joining the line.

Because he is the one we can see in the picture of a defensive system we don't actually know, he should be the scapegoat.

This is an insane level of over-analysis

Except there was one phase before the one where Youngs kicked where we were already in the 14-1 alignment. Lawes carried to the right hand side of the pitch (from Larmour's POV) and then in the next phase Youngs grubbers through from the left side of the ensuing ruck. For the record, the players moving into the defensive line were Sexton and Murray, not Stockdale.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think the criticism is necessarily because of the loss to England in Twickenham; it's more the manner of the loss / performance.

Oh I know, but it is going a small bit overboard.


England absolutely hammered NZ in the WC, a team which had absolutely hammered us in the previous game


Ok we lost and we got overrun at weekend but our defense was good, our exit was awful. The tries where from silly mistakes but really it was the pressure. We just couldn't exit. The box kick was not working but we constantly went back to it.


We just haven't worked out yet how to play against that type of play. We will or someone else will and we will copy. Look at us in 2018, nobody worked out how to stop us, England did and then everyone copied.

moritz1234

Players ratings from Sunday
Healy 5/10
Herring 6/10
Furlong 5/10
Toner 5/10
Ryan 8/10
PoM 7/10
VDF 4/10
Stander 8/10
Murray 4/10
Sexton 3/10
Stockdale 4/10
Aki 6/10
Henshaw 6/10
Conway 6/10
Larmour 5/10

Kelleher 7/10
Kilcoyne 6/10
Porter 7/10
Dillane 5/10
Doris 6/10
Cooney 7/10

Anyone with 4 or less should be dropped straight way

lawrencesummers

moritz1234 wrote: »

Players ratings from Sunday
Healy 5/10
Herring 6/10
Furlong 5/10
Toner 5/10
Ryan 8/10
PoM 7/10
VDF 4/10
Stander 8/10
Murray 4/10
Sexton 3/10
Stockdale 4/10
Aki 6/10
Henshaw 6/10
Conway 6/10
Larmour 5/10

Kelleher 7/10
Kilcoyne 6/10
Porter 7/10
Dillane 5/10
Doris 6/10
Cooney 7/10

Anyone with 4 or less should be dropped straight way

I don’t know where you get the scores from but:

Giving sexton a 3 is generous at best. His leadership was brutal, his game management terrible and his errors that of a schoolboy. His kicking was nowhere near the level it should be.

Cooney doesn’t deserve a 7, he choose the wrong side and butchered a great attacking position.

Porter got minced by jenge. Nowhere near a 7.

Stander getting an 8? No Irish player should be getting an 8 for that performance.


Giving players individual scores in general is a joke, but in this instance it’s a complete waste of time.

arsebiscuits1

moritz1234 wrote: »

Players ratings from Sunday
Healy 5/10
Herring 6/10
Furlong 5/10
Toner 5/10
Ryan 8/10
PoM 7/10
VDF 4/10
Stander 8/10
Murray 4/10
Sexton 3/10
Stockdale 4/10
Aki 6/10
Henshaw 6/10
Conway 6/10
Larmour 5/10

Kelleher 7/10
Kilcoyne 6/10
Porter 7/10
Dillane 5/10
Doris 6/10
Cooney 7/10

Anyone with 4 or less should be dropped straight way

What are these ratings based on? Tackles made/ missed? Metres made? Positive passes? Structural failures? Attitude?

The coaching staff will have broken down their findings from the game already and look to make the appropriate decisions on who to start.

Player ratings are the biggest clickbait load of nonsense I think

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

What are these ratings based on? Tackles made/ missed? Metres made? Positive passes? Structural failures? Attitude?

The coaching staff will have broken down their findings from the game already and look to make the appropriate decisions on who to start.

Player ratings are the biggest clickbait load of nonsense I think

Probably from the posters own head...

interesting in the Times newspaper they gave Toner a 7 and Ryan only 5.. probably salty about how he was hitting rucks.

stephen_n

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

What are these ratings based on? Tackles made/ missed? Metres made? Positive passes? Structural failures? Attitude?

The coaching staff will have broken down their findings from the game already and look to make the appropriate decisions on who to start.

Player ratings are the biggest clickbait load of nonsense I think

Especially player ratings from Internet forum users.

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

Especially player ratings from Internet forum users.

Can we all do this? Sounds like fun.

aloooof

prawnsambo wrote: »

Can we all do this? Sounds like fun.

Or poster rating?

Buer: 0/10

kilns

stephen_n wrote: »

Especially player ratings from Internet forum users.

with agendas

prawnsambo

kilns wrote: »

with agendas

Seems we're dropping JvdF, Sexton, Murray, Stockdale, Earls* and Ross Byrne*.

We'll be starting the next game with no out halves apparently. Ballsy.





* Unrated, so presumably not even worth a zero.

prawnsambo

Cian Healy ruled out for the remainder of the 6N.

moritz1234

Players ratings from Owen Harrison online at the Irish Examiner

moritz1234

prawnsambo wrote: »

Seems we're dropping JvdF, Sexton, Murray, Stockdale, Earls* and Ross Byrne*.

We'll be starting the next game with no out halves apparently. Ballsy.





* Unrated, so presumably not even worth a zero.

Not on long enough to be rated

prawnsambo

moritz1234 wrote: »

Not on long enough to be rated

Keith Earls was on for 17 minutes, Byrne for 15. Kelleher was on for just four minutes more than Earls. They had the ball an equal number of times, but Earls ran over three times as many metres as Kelleher did with his carries. They each made as many tackles. I'd understand if it was a few minutes with virtually no involvement, but that's just lazy.

moritz1234

I'd drop Murray, Sexton, Stockdale - I'd give VDF another chance but a warning!
Italy us next so no real "dropping" - it will be telling the team picked to face France in Paris!

THFC198

prawnsambo wrote: »

Cian Healy ruled out for the remainder of the 6N.

Obviously hate to see a player out injured, but I’m excited to see Kilcoyne/McGrath step up. Wonder who, if any, would be called up as a replacement

prawnsambo

THFC198 wrote: »

Obviously hate to see a player out injured, but I’m excited to see Kilcoyne/McGrath step up. Wonder who, if any, would be called up as a replacement

They don't appear to be calling anyone up. They'd be doing it now if they intended to.