Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Thrashssacre

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Its effects are certainly being felt less, numbers are consistently down yet in the area where i live, large groups have been out for weeks on the street having massive bingo game, drinking sessions and bbqs with zero social distancing being observed. I think the worst is over at this point and baring a dangerous new strain mutating from the existing virus all should be back to normal sooner then we fear, here's hoping anyways.

Maybe its not even a virus, I've long thought this all seems more like the work of ancient Sumerian Warlocks. I mean come on - batsoup? More like bat**** AMIRITE!

The reason there hasn't been second waves in many countries is because of the huge effort to contain the virus. There is absolutely no reason to just presume the virus can't again accelerate through the population unless you have some insight that has escaped the medical community.

irishbucsfan

I don’t think there’ll be big money signings anywhere for a while. Unless one of the clubs get a private benefactor, and now would be the ideal time for someone with the means to do that to make a huge difference (maybe Bristol can capitalise)

But if there isn’t someone who finds a bunch of investment, then there’s nothing to say a “big money” signing will just be making less next year. And if the Southern Hemisphere are hit worse than the Northern Hemisphere then who is to say there might not actually be more players that the provinces can attract rather than less. Especially if private clubs in England/France are absolutely smashed by this period and the 6N/AIs can be completed, which would see our provinces in a far far better financial position.

If overseas signings to Europe DO suddenly slow down a lot, then that absolutely does benefit the provinces hugely and it would be the ideal time to get aggressive on moving players around. Especially given the quality sitting at 3rd/4th string in pretty much every position at Leinster

Clegg

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd love to see a draft

Can't see the provinces agreeing to that, especially Leinster. Provincial loyalty is a bit cliché at this stage, but fans want players from their province lining out every week. And players want to play for their province. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Also, there's simply a disparity in the quality of the schools and academy system. Leinster is the largest province with the best schools and coaching set ups. They're going to produce the most quality young prospects year on year. Leinster would cry bloody murder if they weren't allowed have first pick on taking them into their system. Might be that the IRFU tells them to pick 2 or 3 that they definitely want in the system, but the rest will.be up for draft.

Shefwedfan

Andy Friend had a good discussion I think last season. He said in Aus they had Waratahs who had loads of young players, they moved the players around but if they became top internationals they would have chance to move back to Lesinter

This might help player who grew up all their lives wanting to play for Leinster. Let them move and then they have option after 3 years to move back.

Just an option I thought worth exploring

connemara man

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Andy Friend had a good discussion I think last season. He said in Aus they had Waratahs who had loads of young players, they moved the players around but if they became top internationals they would have chance to move back to Lesinter

This might help player who grew up all their lives wanting to play for Leinster. Let them move and then they have option after 3 years to move back.

Just an option I thought worth exploring

They do that anyway. Get the game time show themselves off and head back if they're contacted

Bazzo

Yep that's exactly what happens anyway... Fionn Carr, Mick Kearney, Cian Kelleher. If Leinster are interested they're offered a contract, unless the suggestion is that they should be made move back if Leinster want them...

Captain_Crash

connemara man wrote: »

They do that anyway. Get the game time show themselves off and head back if they're contacted

Wasn't that the original deal when Carbs went to Munster? He'd have to option to come back after 2 years (Prior to him deciding to extend his stay)

Shefwedfan

connemara man wrote: »

They do that anyway. Get the game time show themselves off and head back if they're contacted

Not officially.....


I think Friend point was its not an official process and if they made it then maybe Connacht could gte a lot more players. THe plan would be then for Connacht to make it so good the player wouldnt return back.



He referenced Aus and they did it, I cant remeber exact details but could be a plan. If it already worked in another country?


At the moment some players are not willing to move unless they have method to go back. THe other option is players leave to England which is not great

Buer

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Wasn't that the original deal when Carbs went to Munster? He'd have to option to come back after 2 years (Prior to him deciding to extend his stay)

He would have the option to come back if Leinster offered him a contract and the IRFU were happy to take a back seat. There was nothing in place about him ever coming back when he signed.

I think it has worked out better for all involved anyway. Well, possibly not Carbery whose career might have been more successful as a full back in Leinster.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Can't see the provinces agreeing to that, especially Leinster. Provincial loyalty is a bit cliché at this stage, but fans want players from their province lining out every week. And players want to play for their province. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Also, there's simply a disparity in the quality of the schools and academy system. Leinster is the largest province with the best schools and coaching set ups. They're going to produce the most quality young prospects year on year. Leinster would cry bloody murder if they weren't allowed have first pick on taking them into their system. Might be that the IRFU tells them to pick 2 or 3 that they definitely want in the system, but the rest will.be up for draft.

Yeah I think something like what you're suggesting in your last sentence might work.

Each province creates a list of 15/20 sub Academy players each April or May. Each province gets to "lock down" 3 players from their own list and after that Connacht get Pick 1, Ulster 2, Munster 3, Leinster 4 & 5, Munster 6, Ulster 7 and Connacht 8 and so on.

This, in theory, should mean that good players are less likely to slip through the net while keeping the provinces competitive with each other, while at the same time ensuring the next BOD plays for Leinster, the next Henderson plays for Ulster and the next Earls plays for Munster etc etc.

Players like Cooney, Conway and Cronin prove that provincial supporters will absolutely buy into players who come from elsewhere in Ireland.

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

Yeah I think something like what you're suggesting in your last sentence might work.

Each province creates a list of 15/20 sub Academy players each April or May. Each province gets to "lock down" 3 players from their own list and after that Connacht get Pick 1, Ulster 2, Munster 3, Leinster 4 & 5, Munster 6, Ulster 7 and Connacht 8 and so on.

This, in theory, should mean that good players are less likely to slip through the net while keeping the provinces competitive with each other, while at the same time ensuring the next BOD plays for Leinster, the next Henderson plays for Ulster and the next Earls plays for Munster etc etc.

Players like Cooney, Conway and Cronin prove that provincial supporters will absolutely buy into players who come from elsewhere in Ireland.

What if pick 1 doesn’t want to go to Connacht? What if he wants live with his family in Dublin and play for Leinster who want him and he wants to go to college in Dublin? Is he just let slip away then? These aren’t top pro prospects in America getting huge sums they are for the most part college kids.

aloooof

The other issue is that, at that age, you also don't know if they will realise their potential and become the next BOD, Henderson or Earls.

I don't really know what the answer is, but some form of provincial representation would have to be part of it, I'd imagine.

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to see a draft

not really possible though or at least one that's workable

Clegg wrote: »

Can't see the provinces agreeing to that, especially Leinster. Provincial loyalty is a bit cliché at this stage, but fans want players from their province lining out every week. And players want to play for their province. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Also, there's simply a disparity in the quality of the schools and academy system. Leinster is the largest province with the best schools and coaching set ups. They're going to produce the most quality young prospects year on year. Leinster would cry bloody murder if they weren't allowed have first pick on taking them into their system. Might be that the IRFU tells them to pick 2 or 3 that they definitely want in the system, but the rest will.be up for draft.

there is a disparity with leinster having far more schools with extensive budgets and then provincial money can then be spent on clubs development that iant case in other provinces what could happen is players originally from other provinces having to play for that province or players encouraged to move far more. Leinster should have first pick but a limit put in place

bilston wrote: »

Yeah I think something like what you're suggesting in your last sentence might work.

Each province creates a list of 15/20 sub Academy players each April or May. Each province gets to "lock down" 3 players from their own list and after that Connacht get Pick 1, Ulster 2, Munster 3, Leinster 4 & 5, Munster 6, Ulster 7 and Connacht 8 and so on.

This, in theory, should mean that good players are less likely to slip through the net while keeping the provinces competitive with each other, while at the same time ensuring the next BOD plays for Leinster, the next Henderson plays for Ulster and the next Earls plays for Munster etc etc.

Players like Cooney, Conway and Cronin prove that provincial supporters will absolutely buy into players who come from elsewhere in Ireland.

leinster wont overproduce into long term.

salmocab wrote: »

What if pick 1 doesn’t want to go to Connacht? What if he wants live with his family in Dublin and play for Leinster who want him and he wants to go to college in Dublin? Is he just let slip away then? These aren’t top pro prospects in America getting huge sums they are for the most part college kids.

they wont get contract then. If they want to try pro rugby then they will do it. It's not a major move in Ireland. Still 2/3 hours from home in nearly all cases

thomond2006

A draft isn't a runner. It's been tradition in American sports since the 40s but they have closed leagues with no competition.

Let's take an Irish example. Nothing is stopping a top schools player from going to a Toulouse or Clermont instead of an Irish province. That ruins the draft from the off.

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

A draft isn't a runner. It's been tradition in American sports since the 40s but they have closed leagues with no competition.

Let's take an Irish example. Nothing is stopping a top schools player from going to a Toulouse or Clermont instead of an Irish province. That ruins the draft from the off.

Plus by the time a player is at draft age he’s probably already been with his home province for a few years getting coached in that system and presumably buying into it.
Another stumbling block is pretty much forcing someone to effectively move to another country.

mfceiling

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

leinster wont overproduce into long term.

I think they will. A large school system feeding into the leinster academy in huge numbers. It's a conveyor belt churning out players. The schools system is aligned with the Leinster system so these guys are basically coming in semi pro and hitting the ground running.
Not great if you don't support leinster but good for the Irish team in the future.

molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

I think they will. A large school system feeding into the leinster academy in huge numbers. It's a conveyor belt churning out players. The schools system is aligned with the Leinster system so these guys are basically coming in semi pro and hitting the ground running.
Not great if you don't support leinster but good for the Irish team in the future.

They are building high performance centres in a few locations across the province too, although whether they all go ahead now remains to be seen. But they are clearly making serious investment in the pathways so if things do continue to go to plan they'll have as consistent a conveyor belt as could be reasonably possible.

sydthebeat

It's a future crisis that the other three provinces DONT become anything other than a leinster A team.
The population, the standard of schools rugby, the intrinsic link between schools and leinster.... All lead to a situation where leinster become stronger and stronger, and their "maybe" players become more and more desirable to other provinces.

So it's actually already predetermined that leinster will over produce in the long term.

The only way this is to be challenged is for the other provinces to fund and develop their systems on a equitable basis

Downlinz

Clegg wrote: »

Can't see the provinces agreeing to that, especially Leinster. Provincial loyalty is a bit cliché at this stage, but fans want players from their province lining out every week. And players want to play for their province. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Also, there's simply a disparity in the quality of the schools and academy system. Leinster is the largest province with the best schools and coaching set ups. They're going to produce the most quality young prospects year on year. Leinster would cry bloody murder if they weren't allowed have first pick on taking them into their system. Might be that the IRFU tells them to pick 2 or 3 that they definitely want in the system, but the rest will.be up for draft.

A draft system would achieve two things, it'd ensure talented players are well distributed for gametime across the provinces for the benefit of the international team and keep a relative balance for competitiveness to prevent any team having sustained dominance and keeping fans of all teams engaged. Both are good things for Irish rugby.

I don't expect Leinster or Leinster fans would ever agree to it since it means losing the benefits of a significant population advantage and competing on a level playing pitch but it would be good for the international team and make provincial games along with the Pro 14 a lot more exciting.

Podge_irl

It would make provincial games a lot more pointless. They have already lost a lot of the "edge" they had in years past.

It would also be completely unworkable in a practical sense. Academy players are often also pursuing higher education - you can't force a UCD student to go work in Limerick.

Dave_The_Sheep

Downlinz wrote: »

I don't expect Leinster or Leinster fans would ever agree to it since it means losing the benefits of a significant population advantage and competing on a level playing pitch but it would be good for the international team and make provincial games along with the Pro 14 a lot more exciting.

Yes, those dastardly Leinsters and all their advantages, it's just unfair. Unfair I say!

Odd we never heard much of this unfairness until the last few years.

These things are generally cyclical, ffs.

The Lost Sheep

mfceiling wrote: »

I think they will. A large school system feeding into the leinster academy in huge numbers. It's a conveyor belt churning out players. The schools system is aligned with the Leinster system so these guys are basically coming in semi pro and hitting the ground running.
Not great if you don't support leinster but good for the Irish team in the future.

they wont over produce in the manner they have recently. Things are cyclical.

molloyjh wrote: »

They are building high performance centres in a few locations across the province too, although whether they all go ahead now remains to be seen. But they are clearly making serious investment in the pathways so if things do continue to go to plan they'll have as consistent a conveyor belt as could be reasonably possible.

they are and this will help their club teams. Munster are doing similar with Musgrave. Connacht if/when sportsground is done up will have enough with just one for now though east could work out of athlone and north could get something in sligo.
Leinster still wont overproduce long term in the manner they have. Other provinces which have dropped off in some cases will rise back up again

sydthebeat wrote: »

It's a future crisis that the other three provinces DONT become anything other than a leinster A team.
The population, the standard of schools rugby, the intrinsic link between schools and leinster.... All lead to a situation where leinster become stronger and stronger, and their "maybe" players become more and more desirable to other provinces.

So it's actually already predetermined that leinster will over produce in the long term.

The only way this is to be challenged is for the other provinces to fund and develop their systems on a equitable basis

they wont ever be leinster a sides or near it. Some parts of the schools rugby will drop off and standards of recent years wont be able to be maintained consistently long term.

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would make provincial games a lot more pointless. They have already lost a lot of the "edge" they had in years past.

It would also be completely unworkable in a practical sense. Academy players are often also pursuing higher education - you can't force a UCD student to go work in Limerick.

huge numbers of players study courses online, part time etc. If studying in UCD they can do similar or the same course in limerick/galway/wherever like players do all the time. That really isnt any reason to not do something like this.

Podge_irl

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

huge numbers of players study courses online, part time etc. If studying in UCD they can do similar or the same course in limerick/galway/wherever like players do all the time. That really isnt any reason to not do something like this.

It is a massive reason not to do something like this. Players are not chess pieces to be moved around at will. Courses in different universities are also not identical. Also when is this draft taking place? Because moving 2/3 years into a degree will be a lot harder then moving at the start. It is only one aspect of why its a terrible idea, but its an important one.

Never mind any potential EU legal implications.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

they wont ever be leinster a sides or near it. Some parts of the schools rugby will drop off and standards of recent years wont be able to be maintained consistently long term.

That's nothing more than a statement of hope.

Nothing from the last few years would point towards what you've said, if anything the trend is accelerating towards a much greater distribution of leinster produced players to the other provinces.

The quality of the leinster schools rugby can only increase when to consider the funding that is being pumped into it.
There is more finances being pumped into leinster schools than there is in a lot of senior rugby clubs.

The only sector that is half rebounding against this is the bokke connection to munster..... But that obviously cannot continue.

Bogwoppit

Drafts are awful and I don’t think any team would agree to one, it would be an absolute disaster.

So Leinster have a production line of players as a result of investing in the schools and the infrastructure, does anyone honestly think that investment would continue if 3/4 of the players it produced were sent to the other provinces?

A significant number of players would also give up the professional game if they were sent somewhere else without any say in the matter. It flies in the face of any team loyalty and turns the game into a horse trading market where players will be bought and sold like in football, we will lose the deep rooted connection that the provinces have with their home grown players (some provinces doing their best to lose this connection already!) and by extension a lot of the fans who love to see the young lad next door or from the local club get a run.

How would older players stepping up from the AIL slot into the draft? Or overseas signings?

No, away with your daft American ideas and let’s just keep it as it is so that young lads can have a dream of being a loyal player to their home province and represent their friends, family and community with pride.

Yes plenty of players will move around for money or opportunity but they do that out of choice rather than a misguided notion of sharing the wealth, sounds a bit too much like communism! Ha!

thomond2006

Drafts aren't awful necessarily, they just don't fit within the (Irish) rugby ecosystem at all.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

That's nothing more than a statement of hope.

Nothing from the last few years would point towards what you've said, if anything the trend is accelerating towards a much greater distribution of leinster produced players to the other provinces.

The quality of the leinster schools rugby can only increase when to consider the funding that is being pumped into it.
There is more finances being pumped into leinster schools than there is in a lot of senior rugby clubs.

The only sector that is half rebounding against this is the bokke connection to munster..... But that obviously cannot continue.

rye bit about springbok Munster connection is petty.
And if leinster schools money did increase it wouldnt be a good thing. The sport will only truly improve and get better when we get a far wider spread of people playing and the schools in leinster do absolutely nothing for that as they're nearly all fee paying and therefore out of reach of the overwhelming majority of people nationwide and it is part of reason why we've failed over and over in world cups.

Bogwoppit wrote: »

Drafts are awful and I don’t think any team would agree to one, it would be an absolute disaster.

So Leinster have a production line of players as a result of investing in the schools and the infrastructure, does anyone honestly think that investment would continue if 3/4 of the players it produced were sent to the other provinces?

A significant number of players would also give up the professional game if they were sent somewhere else without any say in the matter. It flies in the face of any team loyalty and turns the game into a horse trading market where players will be bought and sold like in football, we will lose the deep rooted connection that the provinces have with their home grown players (some provinces doing their best to lose this connection already!) and by extension a lot of the fans who love to see the young lad next door or from the local club get a run.

How would older players stepping up from the AIL slot into the draft? Or overseas signings?

No, away with your daft American ideas and let’s just keep it as it is so that young lads can have a dream of being a loyal player to their home province and represent their friends, family and community with pride.

Yes plenty of players will move around for money or opportunity but they do that out of choice rather than a misguided notion of sharing the wealth, sounds a bit too much like communism! Ha!

except by and large leinster rugby/irfu have invested little in the schools and its parents/private money.
If people who wanted to go pro and the choice was galway/limerick/Belfast or not at all then the overwhelming majority would pick the chance to play pro rugby at all ahead of not playing. Look at numbers choosing to play championship at very low wages as evident of that.
The home connection with the provinces wouldnt be lost.
Percentage of home grown players is so high with Irish provinces and leinster even more so. Changes like this are far from extensive enough to change any form of ethos or anything else within the provinces.
Much of the money invested in the schools had little to do with producing pro players. Its primarily about winning 280 minutes of schools cup games every spring.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

rye bit about springbok Munster connection is petty.
And if leinster schools money did increase it wouldnt be a good thing. The sport will only truly improve and get better when we get a far wider spread of people playing and the schools in leinster do absolutely nothing for that as they're nearly all fee paying and therefore out of reach of the overwhelming majority of people nationwide and it is part of reason why we've failed over and over in world cups.
.

Not petty at all, the bokke connection is there clear as day for all to see and if you don't see it, well that says a lot more about how you choose to view it

And the comment that somehow connects schools rugby to Ireland failures at RWCs is so beyond out there that I suggest you put the drink down. That's marvel level fantasy working right there.

Schools rugby, especially Leinsters schools rugby, develop the raw material that the provinces are presented with to mould into top class players.

The reason Ireland continuously fail to be one of the top four teams in the world, come RWC time, is, dare I suggest, that we are not actually one of the top four rugby teams in the world. Munster continously offering club spots to bokke players isn't going to help that any in the long run either.

Shefwedfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

rye bit about springbok Munster connection is petty.
And if leinster schools money did increase it wouldnt be a good thing. The sport will only truly improve and get better when we get a far wider spread of people playing and the schools in leinster do absolutely nothing for that as they're nearly all fee paying and therefore out of reach of the overwhelming majority of people nationwide and it is part of reason why we've failed over and over in world cups.

except by and large leinster rugby/irfu have invested little in the schools and its parents/private money.
If people who wanted to go pro and the choice was galway/limerick/Belfast or not at all then the overwhelming majority would pick the chance to play pro rugby at all ahead of not playing. Look at numbers choosing to play championship at very low wages as evident of that.
The home connection with the provinces wouldnt be lost.
Percentage of home grown players is so high with Irish provinces and leinster even more so. Changes like this are far from extensive enough to change any form of ethos or anything else within the provinces.
Much of the money invested in the schools had little to do with producing pro players. Its primarily about winning 280 minutes of schools cup games every spring.

I mentioned this on the Munster thread. It seems a very short term view taken by them. Let look at this season, Mathewson for one was resigned on a short term contract again. While Munster had plenty of cover and one of the most exciting young talents in Ireland sitting on a bench. Which other province would of handed Blyendaal another contract? sorry to be cruel but he is a constant injury risk and at this stage should really retire for his own health.


That is such a waste of money. If your saying Bleyendaal is for cover? what use is a player who is always injured. Just promote the young lad and save the money. They ended up promoting Healy but still paying Bleyendaal. Crazy stuff

Then they are releasing articles into the press about the lack of money to invest into schools??? Why not take that wages and stick into develpoment. They had the cover.

It was discussed on the molecast once about they seem to have no plan. Like who is sitting down and going "Right Casey, if no injuries he is going to start 5 games this season, 10 plus 1 in Europe, etc" but for all the players? I dont see it and they didnt either,.

Who in the organization is looking at the lack of player coming up via the system and going right Munster, you need to give me 100k fro the next 5 years to fix this. I don't see that?

It seems to be, complain about Leinster, complain enough and then buy a player. It needs to be better.

Look at Ulster, they got hammered for lack of progress for young players. They took a new approach, a number of great young player in the squad now and even more coming this season according to my mate who will light it up.



Maybe Munster should stop with the excuses and pointing the finger and just get on with it.

Buer

The draft system is a pipe dream. It would never be able to work in Irish rugby for the reasons already highlighted.

It's also worth noting that it wouldn't be all one way traffic with Leinster solely losing out and that wouldn't sit well elsewhere. Once every few years, the other provinces have a strong intake of players and they would be loath to part with a number of them.

James French, Seán French, Josh Wycherley, Jack Daly, Thomas Ahern, Ben Healy, Eoin Clarke and Diarmuid Barron all came into the Munster academy at the same time. Would Munster be happy to lose home developed talent if it meant getting some guys from other provinces? Of course not. There would be huge opposition to it.