Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

irishbucsfan

D14Rugby wrote: »

"However, their deferred pay will be repaid between July and October of this year."

That absolutely does not mean it will be repaid over that full period in installments or piecemeal or however else you read it.

D14Rugby wrote: »

How on earth did you get me not comprehending that its a 20% cut from what I said? I literally used the words deferred and cut specifically. More selective reading.

You said office staff will be paid back. That is not what is going to happen if they take a 20% pay cut.




Important to note though, although the 20% pay cut is permanent it doesn't mean pay can't/won't be restored when things are back up and running. And given the IRFU are one of the only rugby NGBs with local competition for experienced administrators, its more likely than not I'd say, it just may take a bit of time before they choose to do that. It's an awful situation for those people, especially those trying to afford to live in such a ridiculously overpriced place as Dublin.

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That absolutely does not mean it will be repaid over that full period in installments or piecemeal or however else you read it.



You said office staff will be paid back. That is not what is going to happen if they take a 20% pay cut.




Important to note though, although the 20% pay cut is permanent it doesn't mean pay can't/won't be restored when things are back up and running. And given the IRFU are one of the only rugby NGBs with local competition for experienced administrators, its more likely than not I'd say, it just may take a bit of time before they choose to do that. It's an awful situation for those people, especially those trying to afford to live in such a ridiculously overpriced place as Dublin.

office staff had deferrals, which will also be repaid. The cuts to a 4 day week are new

https://twitter.com/stephenjones9/status/1271864622300237829



next few days are going to tell a lot it seems.

D14Rugby

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That absolutely does not mean it will be repaid over that full period in installments or piecemeal or however else you read it.

That's how it reads to unbiased eyes, and I'm telling you that's what it means

You said office staff will be paid back. That is not what is going to happen if they take a 20% pay cut.

I said office staff will be paid back the money they had deferred. I thought that was obvious, clearly not obvious enough that those that wanted to find issues still could.

irishbucsfan

D14Rugby wrote: »

That's how it reads to unbiased eyes, and I'm telling you that's what it means



I said office staff will be paid back the money they had deferred. I thought that was obvious, clearly not obvious enough that those that wanted to find issues still could.

Haha I'm completely unbiased on this. Chill. I don't know any current IRFU office staff particularly well. But saying someone 'will be repaid between X and Y' does not mean that they will be paid in ongoing sums over that period. I hope you don't have to negotiate legals for a living! It would probably suit the IRFU far better to do it that way of course, I'd not be surprised at all if thats what happens.

I was just clarifying that office staff are not going to be paid back if there are permanent pay cuts. I see you meant that. That's a shame for anyone, hopefully things will return to normal for them sooner rather than later, it serves absolutely no one in Ireland if the people administrating the sport are on reduced hours/pay.

Former Former

JJJackal wrote: »

Out of curiosity where do you think a Johnny Sexton for example could go if not Leinster?

No Pro 14 club can afford him especially now. Salary cap are shrinking in the UK.

France perhaps - but which club would want him at this point in his career (ie today with no clear prospect of rugby with spectators and Johnny despite his brilliance is getting older and probably wouldnt play every week)?

I think clubs in general wont be rushing to sign expensive players with no prospect of rugby with crowds returning. Rugby is surely one of the least socially distanced sports eg the scrum 16 players plus 2 scrum halves plus the referee in v close proximity.

I don't think you've read the post in full context, I was saying the best players would be more likely to leave if they had to take a 50% pay cut as was suggested by another poster.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think you've read the post in full context, I was saying the best players would be more likely to leave if they had to take a 50% pay cut as was suggested by another poster.

To be clear, I never suggested a 50% cut. I suggested that the deferred pay be written off (it's pretty clear the IRFU can't really afford to pay it), and that from now on the cut be greater than the 20% proposed for the big earners in order to avoid cuts to those who are much less well off, but I didn't say 50% permanently!

D14Rugby

awec wrote: »

To be clear, I never suggested a 50% cut. I suggested that the deferred pay be written off (it's pretty clear the IRFU can't really afford to pay it), and that from now on the cut be greater than the 20% proposed for the big earners in order to avoid cuts to those who are much less well off, but I didn't say 50% permanently!

Essentially your "suggestion" was to do something illegal... Yeah thats very realistic

awec

D14Rugby wrote: »

Essentially your "suggestion" was to do something illegal... Yeah thats very realistic

I personally do not believe any player would be thick enough to go to the courts.

Not only would it kill their career in Ireland stone dead, but the optics of pro player X looking for a big payout from the IRFU at a time when they are cutting the salaries of their admin staff is not a look that anyone is going to want.

But you've already nailed your colours to the mast here, and made it clear that you think it's unreasonable that someone should be expected to survive on only a few hundred grand. Sure don't they have non-rugby investments that they have to finance? However will they manage?! Meanwhile Susan in the ticket office is hoping she can still pay the mortgage.

D14Rugby

awec wrote: »

I personally do not believe any player would be thick enough to go to the courts.

Not only would it kill their career in Ireland stone dead, but the optics of pro player X looking for a big payout from the IRFU at a time when they are cutting the salaries of their admin staff is not a look that anyone is going to want.

But you've already nailed your colours to the mast here, and made it clear that you think it's unreasonable that someone should be expected to survive on only a few hundred grand. Sure don't they have non-rugby investments that they have to finance? However will they manage?! Meanwhile Susan in the ticket office is hoping she can still pay the mortgage.

Jesus Christ almighty you really refuse to get it don't you?

Also the optics of ripping up a legally binding agreement wouldn't look good either and no player notlr their agent would do business with the IRFU without that in mind again, and that's best case scenario.

Buer

awec wrote: »

I personally do not believe any player would be thick enough to go to the courts.

Not only would it kill their career in Ireland stone dead, but the optics of pro player X looking for a big payout from the IRFU at a time when they are cutting the salaries of their admin staff is not a look that anyone is going to want.
.

It wouldn't be a player being thick enough to take the IRFU to court, it would be the IRFU being thick enough to refuse to honour a legal contract. Not a hope they'll just do that in the hope that a player wouldn't take legal action.

The player wouldn't do squat if it did happen. They'd have their union savage the IRFU and have it sorted before anyone blinked.

Of course, neither side would be that stupid. The wage bill will be massively trimmed in the medium term by legal and prudent measures.

awec

D14Rugby wrote: »

Jesus Christ almighty you really refuse to get it don't you?

Also the optics of ripping up a legally binding agreement wouldn't look good either and no player notlr their agent would do business with the IRFU without that in mind again, and that's best case scenario.

Oh I get it, you're talking rubbish though.

Reality: nobody will give a damn if the players don't get their deferred pay other than the players themselves. What a bizarre notion.

Reality: players still want to be professional rugby players and play for their province Ireland, the idea that they'll not do business with the IRFU or they'd be hesitant to do so is a notion that exists only in your head.

Dave_The_Sheep

This is like Christmas for Awec.

molloyjh

Hands up who knows enough detail in this to form a definitive opinion....

awec

Buer wrote: »

It wouldn't be a player being thick enough to take the IRFU to court, it would be the IRFU being thick enough to refuse to honour a legal contract. Not a hope they'll just do that in the hope that a player wouldn't take legal action.

The player wouldn't do squat if it did happen. They'd have their union savage the IRFU and have it sorted before anyone blinked.

Of course, neither side would be that stupid. The wage bill will be massively trimmed in the medium term by legal and prudent measures.

Doubt it. In the court of public perception there is only one winner here, and that trumps everything.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Hands up who knows enough detail in this to form a definitive opinion....

*raises hand*.

- Pro players took wage deferrals, ranging from 10%-50% dependent on their salary. Check.
- IRFU plans to pay back these deferrals, ranging from 10%-50%, at some point between July and October
- IRFU plans to cut staff salaries, from professional players on mega contracts to backroom staff on relatively modest salaries, by a flat rate of 20%.
- IRFU has begging bowl out at all provinces, pleading poverty and asking for donations.
- IRFU has no guaranteed income of any note for 2020. We could get to the end of the year and Ireland could have played no more fixtures, and given that the IRFU put all their financial eggs into the test rugby basket this is a big problem.
- IRFU has no real notion of what income levels will be in 2021. What if there's a second wave in Jan 2021?

What more detail do you want?

What I would expect to see:

- No mention of paying back wage deferrals until finances are on a sound footing and competitions back up and running.
- Salary cuts proportionate to earnings
- Salary cuts for the paid blazers (maybe there's a few of them we can get rid of and all)
- Trimming the number of alickadoos

Buer

awec wrote: »

Doubt it. In the court of public perception there is only one winner here, and that trumps everything.

It wouldn't get within 100 miles of the public ever knowing.

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

Hands up who knows enough detail in this to form a definitive opinion....

Me.

You can negotiate on future earnings. Happens all the time.

You cannot negotiate on whether to pay money that an employee has already earned. It's absolute lunacy to suggest that you can. But that's exactly what refusing to pay the deferral would be.

D14Rugby

Would this be a bad time to point of that some of the office staff are paid more than some of the players?

And that academy players are on 5k a year, 7s and development players on 18k a year but apparently these lads are rolling in it and can afford to give up all their money for the background staff, plenty of who earn more than them, and senior contracts outside cental contracts range from 25-300k.

Or does that going against Awecs big bad players getting all the money narrative mean it can't be said here?

And to just top it all off this is something that the background staff don't give a **** about, how do they not know they're being persecuted? Sad they need Awec to point that out to them.

awec

D14Rugby wrote: »

Would this be a bad time to point of that some of the office staff are paid more than some of the players?

And that academy players are on 5k a year, 7s and development players on 18k a year but apparently these lads are rolling in it and can afford to give up all their money for the background staff, plenty of who earn more than them, and senior contracts outside cental contracts range from 25-300k.

Or does that going against Awecs big bad players getting all the money narrative mean it can't be said here?

And to just top it all off this is something that the background staff don't give a **** about, how do they not know they're being persecuted? Sad they need Awec to point that out to them.

Stop acting obtuse now, you know full well this is not who anyone is talking about.

I did not realise that you were the authoritative representative of the IRFU background staff, able to speak on behalf of all of them, but I like many others will be relieved to hear that they don't care that their salaries are about to be cut by 20%. For their sake I hope you're not their union rep...

Dave_The_Sheep

So, who specifically are we talking about? Give us ranges and earnings so we are all sure who we're talking about when it comes to getting pay cuts, or being cut, or getting pay deferred. Who exactly are we talking about here?

molloyjh

Oh wonderful. We've a whole bunch of experts happy to rush to jufgement. Fantastic. That's definitely going to turn out well, be fully grounded in whole & complete fact as well as being ultimately borne out exactly as described as things develop.

FFS folks, get a bloody grip of yourselves. We don't know all the detail, so maybe admitting a certain level of personal ignorance may be a good idea as opposed to painting yourselves as oracles. Its okay to admit you don't know it all, and allow that to help inform your opinions too.

D14Rugby

awec wrote: »

Stop acting obtuse now, you know full well this is not who anyone is talking about.

I did not realise that you were the authoritative representative of the IRFU background staff, able to speak on behalf of all of them, but I like many others will be relieved to hear that they don't care that their salaries are about to be cut by 20%. For their sake I hope you're not their union rep...

You've had many opportunities to differentiate players depending on their wages and have neglected to do so and have instead grouped them together with statements like this

awec wrote: »

Nope, I'm acting like they're on hundreds of thousands a year, which they are.

When the reality is there's maybe 40 players on 200k+ a year in Ireland from the IRFU and that's at a push. Players really aren't paid the fortune by the IRFU you think they're paid.

I never said they don't care their wages are being cut, I said they don't think it's bad that they're being treated the same as the players. Know how I know, I asked some.

You're getting offended over something you know nothing about on behalf of people that aren't offended. Great job!

irishbucsfan

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/1272068724040884224?s=20

Bazzo

awec wrote: »

Doubt it. In the court of public perception there is only one winner here, and that trumps everything.

This is mad, you think the IRFU should break legal contracts because they might be able to get away with it? Must keep that in mind for future discussions about the IRFU.

awec wrote: »

- IRFU plans to pay back these deferrals, ranging from 10%-50%, at some point between July and October
- IRFU plans to cut staff salaries, from professional players on mega contracts to backroom staff on relatively modest salaries, by a flat rate of 20%.

A minor point really but no, it's not a flat rate. Players are taking a flat 20%, backroom staff are taking a 20% cut with a 20% reduction in working hours.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

This is mad, you think the IRFU should break legal contracts because they might be able to get away with it? Must keep that in mind for future discussions about the IRFU.
.

Didn't stop the ARU..

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Didn't stop the ARU..

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the paycut in Australia done with the agreement of the players union and is also only in place for 6 months at the moment?

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the paycut in Australia done with the agreement of the players union and is also only in place for 6 months at the moment?

Of course it's in agreement with the players union.

The same way the IRFU is in negotiation with rugby players Ireland to achieve their cuts.

But let's not kid ourselves that the options are, lads we need to change the conditions of your contracts.

Bazzo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Didn't stop the ARU..

Not sure if anybody should be looking to the ARU for inspiration

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

Not sure if anybody should be looking to the ARU for inspiration

Well maybe premiership rugby should

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Of course it's in agreement with the players union.

The same way the IRFU is in negotiation with rugby players Ireland to achieve their cuts.

But let's not kid ourselves that the options are, lads we need to change the conditions of your contracts.

Agreed. The point awec made was for the IRFU to just break the contracts and the players wouldn't take the risk of challenging them publicly if it happened.