Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Clegg

thomond2006 wrote: »

Putting Lowe in for Stockdale because of defense doesn't make much sense!

They both have deficiencies in defence, but Lowe has a more varied attacking game. Was very impressed by him coming in at first receiver and making yards on the crash ball. Not many wingers can do that effectively.

Hugo Keenan has also come out of relative obscurity and put in two very solid performances in the Pro 14 SF and Final. He'll probably start against Saracens too. Looks a very competent footballer and has a lot of speed. Hope to see him in wider Ireland squads soon.

sydthebeat

Clegg wrote: »

Stockdale struggled in defence again this evening. I don't think he missed any tackles like last weekend, but there were a few.kcxasions where he made the hit bug was still driven back a good few metres. And this was against Larmour who is significant smaller. Defence is becoming a very glaring problem.

Wonder if it would be worth trying Lowe and Conway in the wings with Larmour at 15.

I've a feeling Conway will suffer for good versatility.... He's a great 23 option.

That said, I'd have him starting 15 with earls and larmour at the moment, let's see how Lowe gets on against Georgia or Wales first.

Buer

I thought Jack Conan actually put himself right back in the conversation for the Irish 23 tonight too, discipline aside. Certainly his most comprehensive showing since the return of rugby.

I think it's a shoot out for the 4 back row spots between POM, Stander, Conan, VDF, Doris and Connors.

Hard to know which way it will go and there's a bit of rugby to go yet.

AbusesToilets

Brief_Lives wrote: »

Hard to argue against 6. Doris 7. VDF 8. CJ

Still don't think Stander does enough with the ball. He's too easily nullified by good teams. I'd rather see Doris VdF Conan

AbusesToilets

Buer wrote: »

I thought Jack Conan actually put himself right back in the conversation for the Irish 23 tonight too, discipline aside. Certainly his most comprehensive showing since the return of rugby.

I think it's a shoot out for the 4 back row spots between POM, Stander, Conan, VDF, Doris and Connors.

Hard to know which way it will go and there's a bit of rugby to go yet.

POM has done absolutely nothing to warrant consideration, even by his usual debatable efforts.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

POM has done absolutely nothing to warrant consideration, even by his usual debatable efforts.

He has been a mainstay of the 23 for a few years. I wouldn't select him but there's no way he's not in the squad ahead of the selection. It's how it goes....even just for politics.

Clegg

Overall I think the restart of the season has gone well for a lot of Irish players. Doris, Connors, Aki, Ringrose, Sexton and Porter have been the players who've impressed me most.

Think we're in a lot of trouble at hooker and scrum half though. Murray is still nowhere near discovering his best form and Cooney seems to have gone off the boil. Kelleher is a fantastic athlete and really makes an impact around the pitch, but his throwing has been a major cause for concern.

Brief_Lives

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Still don't think Stander does enough with the ball. He's too easily nullified by good teams. I'd rather see Doris VdF Conan

you're just think of Munster statistics... Ireland wise, CJ is still in the driving seat...

Doris JVdF CJ
or
CJ JVdF Dorris

Dwarf.Shortage

Buer wrote: »

I thought Jack Conan actually put himself right back in the conversation for the Irish 23 tonight too, discipline aside. Certainly his most comprehensive showing since the return of rugby.

I think it's a shoot out for the 4 back row spots between POM, Stander, Conan, VDF, Doris and Connors.

Hard to know which way it will go and there's a bit of rugby to go yet.

To be honest I think Doris put another nail in POM international coffin tonight, and they’re starting to build up.

molloyjh

My form XV as it stands:

Healy Herring Porter
Toner Ryan
Stander Doris VDF

JGP Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Stockdale Larmour Conway

Some really tight calls too. The front row essentially picks itself even though hooker is a real cause for concern right now. In the second row I thought Hendo went well today given the absence and Baird has looked good too. In the back row Conan has reentered the mix and Connors is pretty close too, but i feel Josh gives more of a carrying threat. POM isn't within an asses roar of the side, which is an issue as he's a natural leader which is something we lack.

In the back line the 9 shirt is a tough one. I feel most of our 9s are operating in or around as well as the others. Will be interesting to see how that plays out. Sexton is clear number 1 at 10 with real daylight between him and Byrne as the back-up. Aki is right up there with Henshaw at 12, but i think Robbie has shown some great variation to his game since the return. Farrell looked good initially, but Ringrose is well out in front at 13. I agree Hume should be looked at. He's a real talent.

The back 3 is fairly straight forward too. Lowe started look like his old self in the second half today and some of his involvements were class. But his defence is a real issue and would be exposed at Test level. Stockdale for me is more solid and looks to be regaining some form/confidence. Conway is the form wing and Larmour the clear favourite for the FB shirt.

Burkie1203

molloyjh wrote: »

My form XV as it stands:

Healy Herring Porter
Toner Ryan
Stander Doris VDF

JGP Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Stockdale Larmour Conway

POM isn't within an asses roar of the side, which is an issue as he's a natural leader which is something we lack.

Herring Stander Toner Sexton Ringrose have all captained at provincial level and if Henderson is on the bench.

Don't think this "leadership" thing cuts it. Its a weak excise to pick someone at international level

molloyjh

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Herring Stander Toner Sexton Ringrose have all captained at provincial level and if Henderson is on the bench.

Don't think this "leadership" thing cuts it. Its a weak excise to pick someone at international level

I'm not suggesting he be picked because of it. Quite the opposite. I'm saying his form excluding him from selection is a shame because of us losing something we lack as it is. Those guys may have all captained their sides at provincial level, but not all of them are natural leaders at all. Ringrose for example definitely isn't. Its something that Lancaster has tried to develop in him because its something he has noticed we lack here in Ireland at the moment. My entire comment on that though is predicated on POM not being selected.

yerrahbah

the Irish 23 in the last international they played vs England back in February

Larmour (23)
Conway (29)
Henshaw (27)
Aki (30)
Stockdale (24)
Sexton (35)
Murray (31)

Healy (32)
Herring (30)
Furlong (27)
Toner (34)
Ryan (24)
O'Mahony (30)
Van der Flier (27)
Stander (30)


Kelleher (22)
Kilcoyne (31)
Porter (24)
Dillane (26)
Doris (22)
Cooney (30)
Byrne (25)
Earls (32)



LHP: Healy is in possession of the jersey, Kilcoyne is injured so that opens up a spot for someone.

Ed Byrne , Eric O'Sullivan, Denis Buckley, Jack McGrath fighting over the sub spot there. Age is on O'Sullivans side if we are looking to the future

Hooker: Cant say anyone has put up their hands in the matches I saw, Kellehers lineout is a worry, Heffernan might push him for his spot

THP: Barring injury it is you were

2nd Row: Henderson and Ryan will probably start, with the likes of Baird, Dillane, Beirne, Toner battling for a sub spot

Backrow: Probably the most contentious area of the park, For me at the moment Stander and Doris must start. So it is a battle for the 3rd jersey and the sub(s) spot. (6-2 split anyone?)

You have Conan, JVDF, Deegan, Connors, O'Mahony, O'Donoghue, Beirne, possibly Leavy battling for places there.

Scrumhalf: For me Murray is still the best scrumhalf in the country, Even when Cooney was scoring for fun Farrell still started Murray.

Cooney, McGrath, Marmion, and now that JGP is eligible will push to start and make the bench. I'd like to see Casey make the squad under development players if that's still a thing

Outhalf: Probably as you were. No sign of Sexton slowing down yet. with Carty/Burns being the 3rd choice

Centres: Aki and Ringrose for me. Henshaw straight in if someone gets injured. C.Farrell and McCloskey there or there abouts

Back 3. Conway has been the form Irish back 3 player for me and has to start. Larmour starts too. Stockdale will be under big pressure from Lowe for his spot. Just a shame we never see Addision fit.

Generally agree with the consensus above.

Healy is a safe bet, guesswork after that. Kelleher's throwing will need to improve but he's the front runner in my book, very young and works his socks off - carried 7 times last night and made 18 tackles (missed 2)

Porter / Furlong will be rotating for the foreseeable, we've never had this level of talent at tight head before and hopefully both will stay fit.

Not much debate in terms of second row bar the bench spot. I don't think POM is as far down the rankings as people are making out, he obviously trains well with Ireland and his dips in form in Red tend to be worse than his dips in form in Green. He is under a lot of pressure though and Doris being a good line out jumper might seal it for him.

Stander the other guaranteed starter. He's been unreal since the return to play, just depends on who plays 6 and who plays 8.

Openside likely a Connors v VDF debate. Beirne has a case to pop up somewhere in the back 5.

Marmion the standout scrum half the last few weeks. I think Murray is looking a lot more robust again, I think he's poorly coached with Munster to be honest and I'd like to see how he goes in green before writing him off. JGP best of the rest.

Sexton and Bryne at outhalf. Aki Ringrose in the centres and I'm leaning towards a back three of Lowe and Larmour on the wings with Stockdale at fullback.

Tomtom364

In the back three:

11 - Earls still good enough if Farrell is after a bit of tried and trusted but I think it's time to look to the future. Stockdale/Lowe would be a fairly straight forward shootout for this shirt I'd imagine and tbh I couldn't pick between them, both of them have fustrating defensive errors.

14 - Conway - standout all season, most secure spot

15 - L'amour has it for now but I'm not convinced he is right for it in the long run - Stockdale experiment here is done I think.

23. 1 of Earls/Stockdale/Lowe

Conway at 15 could also be deployed but I think not.

Shane Daly could be an outside shout for 15 or 11, he was one of Munsters standout performers over the restart games and was making a name for himself before lockdown. He also has the versatility to cover across the back 3 and 13 so would be a great option in the 23 shirt (particularly with Earls not featuring as he has often been the emergency 13) certainly deserves a call up and a chance to be looked at Iin training I think.

yerrahbah

Deleted User wrote: »

Generally agree with the consensus above.

Healy is a safe bet, guesswork after that. Kelleher's throwing will need to improve but he's the front runner in my book, very young and works his socks off - carried 7 times last night and made 18 tackles (missed 2)

Porter / Furlong will be rotating for the foreseeable, we've never had this level of talent at tight head before and hopefully both will stay fit.

Not much debate in terms of second row bar the bench spot. I don't think POM is as far down the rankings as people are making out, he obviously trains well with Ireland and his dips in form in Red tend to be worse than his dips in form in Green. He is under a lot of pressure though and Doris being a good line out jumper might seal it for him.

Stander the other guaranteed starter. He's been unreal since the return to play, just depends on who plays 6 and who plays 8.

Openside likely a Connors v VDF debate. Beirne has a case to pop up somewhere in the back 5.

Marmion the standout scrum half the last few weeks. I think Murray is looking a lot more robust again, I think he's poorly coached with Munster to be honest and I'd like to see how he goes in green before writing him off. JGP best of the rest.

Sexton and Bryne at outhalf. Aki Ringrose in the centres and I'm leaning towards a back three of Lowe and Larmour on the wings with Stockdale at fullback.

I thought PO'M did well in the games vs Scotland and Wales this year (runs and hides)

yerrahbah

Tomtom364 wrote: »

In the back three:

11 - Earls still good enough if Farrell is after a bit of tried and trusted but I think it's time to look to the future. Stockdale/Lowe would be a fairly straight forward shootout for this shirt I'd imagine and tbh I couldn't pick between them, both of them have fustrating defensive errors.

14 - Conway - standout all season, most secure spot

15 - L'amour has it for now but I'm not convinced he is right for it in the long run - Stockdale experiment here is done I think.

23. 1 of Earls/Stockdale/Lowe

Conway at 15 could also be deployed but I think not.

Shane Daly could be an outside shout for 15 or 11, he was one of Munsters standout performers over the restart games and was making a name for himself before lockdown. He also has the versatility to cover across the back 3 and 13 so would be a great option in the 23 shirt (particularly with Earls not featuring as he has often been the emergency 13) certainly deserves a call up and a chance to be looked at Iin training I think.

Daly is a good shout.

Not too many emerging back 3 players in Ireland at the moment

Lowry? Lyttle? Keenan? Baloucoune?

Paul Smeenus

Baloucoune was in the extended Six Nations squad, and is head and shoulders better than the other mentioned there. If it wasn't for his horrible injury, I'd have been shocked if he hadn't been capped in this autumn.

thomond2006

I expect Stockdale will get a run at FB. Having that kind of bulk in the position could be interesting.

AbusesToilets

thomond2006 wrote: »

I expect Stockdale will get a run at FB. Having that kind of bulk in the position could be interesting.

He's looked quite, the aggression he's carrying with has been marked. Still defensively questionable tho, both in terms of positioning and technique. There was a tackle yesterday where he hit larmour behind the gain line, but got driven back a good 5ms+ in contact.

mfceiling

Are we reaching a point where we have wingers that can comfortably cover full back now?

Is the full back a specialist role anymore?

Wales were able to throw Liam Williams at wing or full back and it never weakened them. Good options to have that if an injury happened early on then we could rejig the backs without any major loss or weakness by positional change.

bilston

yerrahbah wrote: »

Daly is a good shout.

Not too many emerging back 3 players in Ireland at the moment

Lowry? Lyttle? Keenan? Baloucoune?

Daly looks very promising any time I've seen him play. Balacoune is definitely an international prospect. Will also be interesting to see if Andrew Smith gets a chance with Leinster in 20/21. Hugo Keenan isn't doing much wrong either.

The other thing is Stockdale is 24 and Larmour maybe 23.

So we definitely aren't short of options.

shootermacg

What's the story with Marmion?

b.gud

shootermacg wrote: »

What's the story with Marmion?

He had an excellent performance, played the full 80 minutes, against Ulster a couple of weeks ago

shootermacg

Think he really needs to be in the conversation for a start. He's a very well rounded player, can do the box kick thing, but can also play a more direct style.
I hope he gets a crack.

AbusesToilets

shootermacg wrote: »

Think he really needs to be in the conversation for a start. He's a very well rounded player, can do the box kick thing, but can also play a more direct style.
I hope he gets a crack.

Thought he was the best 9 last season, but couldn't get a look in

ionadnapokot

shootermacg wrote: »

Think he really needs to be in the conversation for a start. He's a very well rounded player, can do the box kick thing, but can also play a more direct style.
I hope he gets a crack.

We all know it's going to be Murray v Ital and France

It's going to take some balls to drop him but that is whats needed if Ireland are to start playing quicker.
Is Marmion that guy? Cooney? McGrath? I think it's fair to say that they are not the snappiest from the base of a ruck.
Marmion would be the next best alternative to compensate for the defensive strengths of Murray.
Casey is the snappiest of the lot. Would hope he gets time off the bench during the Autumn at least.

thomond2006

It's too soon for Casey I think. He needs a run of starts with Munster.

JGP's recent form would suggest he deserves an opportunity.

shootermacg

I thought against NZ that Marmion put in a pretty complete performance, exceptional even.

shootermacg

shootermacg wrote: »

I thought against NZ that Marmion put in a pretty complete performance, exceptional even.

Surprised he wasn't the definitive second choice since then