Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

FACECUTTR

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Surprised he wasn't the definitive second choice since then

Had along term ankle injury. He actually played injured in that All Blacks game and had surgery after if I remember correctly.

nerd69

Would a dorris,cj,conan back row work potentially? Sacrifice a small bit of mobility for a lot of extra power

salmocab

nerd69 wrote: »

Would a dorris,cj,conan back row work potentially? Sacrifice a small bit of mobility for a lot of extra power

No open side seems like a bad idea

arsebiscuits1

BOD said it a while back and I'm inclined to agree with him - Marmions passing (especially off his weaker side) is just too slow

nerd69

salmocab wrote: »

No open side seems like a bad idea

Hard to disagree tbh

ionadnapokot

nerd69 wrote: »

Would a dorris,cj,conan back row work potentially? Sacrifice a small bit of mobility for a lot of extra power

Yeah I think it would.
Particularly If Ireland are going going to continue with Murray
Edit - slow delivery. Sexton closed down and options are not available and we are left with Murray box kicking in the hope of regaining possession.

VdF covers allot of ground in defence but against an England or France we need as much power as possible.

Not a fan of 6-2 bench but again it’s something that we probably need against those physical bigger teams.

ionadnapokot

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's too soon for Casey I think. He needs a run of starts with Munster.

JGP's recent form would suggest he deserves an opportunity.

Possibly a bit too early then you would want.
Maybe IRFU might swap him for JGP for the greater good!!

If Ireland really want to up the speed of their attack we don’t have good options.
I don’t know Casey but he doesn’t appear to be fazed by much.

Burkie1203

nerd69 wrote: »

Would a dorris,cj,conan back row work potentially? Sacrifice a small bit of mobility for a lot of extra power

Would work fine v Italy

But bigger games not so sure. Unless Doris is injured he should be wearing the #6 (or 8 if Stander moves to 6) shirt in the meaningful games this autumn.

The one thing under JS that really hurt us especially in 6n and RWC2019 was the lack of a 2nd proper ball carrier in the backrow

theVersatile

CJ could actually fill a ball carrying 7 type role, with the tackle count and breakdown prowess to boot. On paper he has the attributes (bar maybe pace, may get caught at Scrum time) - could be worth a try v Italy if only as a novelty experiment.

Buer

nerd69 wrote: »

Would a dorris,cj,conan back row work potentially? Sacrifice a small bit of mobility for a lot of extra power

It had crossed my mind but, as others mention, we would give up a lot of pace. Linespeed is a major element of defence at this point in time. We wouldn't have an individual there who would be capable of getting off the line and forcing errors/cutting down the opposition when in open space. VDF was excellent at putting Burns under pressure at the weekend.

I don't think he's certain of his spot in green but he's still the best bet to be starting the final 6N games. Connors has pushed himself right into the conversation due to similar attributes although he's more concerned with cutting down opposition carriers.

I would like to see Leinster try a Connors/VDF combination at some point with Connors in a Lydiate/Joe Worsley type role if hitting anything that moves whilst VDF plays his more traditional openside role.

dub_skav

Leavy is the wildcard for Ireland backrow.

If he can come back at near his best then he can play 7 with Doris at 6, or he can play at 6 with VdF at 7.

Allows a horses for courses selection without a loss in mobility.

He seems to have put in a lot of work to get back, would be great to see him have a good run.

aloooof

dub_skav wrote: »

Leavy is the wildcard for Ireland backrow.

If he can come back at near his best then he can play 7 with Doris at 6, or he can play at 6 with VdF at 7.

Allows a horses for courses selection without a loss in mobility.

He seems to have put in a lot of work to get back, would be great to see him have a good run.

A backrow of Stander, pre-injury Leavy and Doris looks extremely good to me on paper. It'd be some achievement for him if he get back to those levels, lets hope he can.

OneLungDavy

theVersatile wrote: »

CJ could actually fill a ball carrying 7 type role, with the tackle count and breakdown prowess to boot. On paper he has the attributes (bar maybe pace, may get caught at Scrum time) - could be worth a try v Italy if only as a novelty experiment.

Stander is very quick, not sure there's much between himself and VDF in that regard, any data to support this discussion?

My biggest concern about him playing 7 is whether he understands the position. He would need to change his game and focus more on defence.

With the right coaching, I think it would work.

AbusesToilets

theVersatile wrote: »

CJ could actually fill a ball carrying 7 type role, with the tackle count and breakdown prowess to boot. On paper he has the attributes (bar maybe pace, may get caught at Scrum time) - could be worth a try v Italy if only as a novelty experiment.

I'd worry he'd get blown off the park for his rucking. Ref let him get away with murder against Leinster, he's less likely to have that leniency at the top level.

Interested Observer

Are we worried about Stander being totally shut down by Leinster? He carried for 4m in the second game. That's POM level carrying.

Vinnie222

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are we worried about Stander being totally shut down by Leinster? He carried for 4m in the second game. That's POM level carrying.

None of the backrows outside of Doris made yards in that game Stander rarely has a poor game in green

AbusesToilets

Stander isn't a carrying threat at the top level, hasn't been for years. He hits rucks, does the POC "hard yards" job of taking static ball into contact. His work rate can't be criticized, but those are yesterday's tactics imo. He have players who can do better imo.

aloooof

Vinnie222 wrote: »

None of the backrows outside of Doris made yards in that game Stander rarely has a poor game in green

Agreed. CJ's been amongst the most consistent performers since he established himself in the starting 15 in 2016. I think there's a case that he could be the most consistent player for us over that period, tbh.

Richie_Rich89

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are we worried about Stander being totally shut down by Leinster? He carried for 4m in the second game. That's POM level carrying.

It was my impression that that happens to him every year in semi finals. I looked up the espn stats and my perception doesn't seem to be quite accurate:

2017 Pro12 final v Scarlets 14 runs for 29m

2017 Euro semi v Saracens 19 runs for 30m

2018 Euro semi v Racing 21 runs for 27m

2018 Pro14 semi v Leinster 19 runs for 10m

2019 Euro semi v Saracens 13 runs for 22m

2019 Pro14 semi v Leinster 17 runs for 20m

2020 Pro14 semi v Leinster 11 runs for 5m

It would be interesting to see the stats for all the times he's faced Leinster. I think Leinster have generally been quite effective in shutting him down. Will Connors did a good job this time round but in the past it was the likes of Jordi Murphy and Jack McGrath.

Burkie1203

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It was my impression that that happens to him every year in semi finals. I looked up the espn stats and my perception doesn't seem to be quite accurate:

2017 Pro12 final v Scarlets 14 runs for 29m

2017 Euro semi v Saracens 19 runs for 30m

2018 Euro semi v Racing 21 runs for 27m

2018 Pro14 semi v Leinster 19 runs for 10m

2019 Euro semi v Saracens 13 runs for 22m

2019 Pro14 semi v Leinster 17 runs for 20m

2020 Pro14 semi v Leinster 11 runs for 5m

It would be interesting to see the stats for all the times he's faced Leinster. I think Leinster have generally been quite effective in shutting him down. Will Connors did a good job this time round but in the past it was the likes of Jordi Murphy and Jack McGrath.

It's not just metres made. A few years ago v Leinster 3 or 4 times he made good ground, but the ball was so slow coming back to the 9 that by the time Munster shovelled it across the backline they were back where they started. It's the lack of variation which good teams have no problem dealing with.

Buer

Nobody is a carrying threat at the top level when they have POM and VDF/Cloete/TOD alongside them for Munster or Ireland. Teams know they can build a plan around nullifying him as there aren't enough options to share the load. Go back to when he first came on the scene for Ireland in 2016 and 2017 with Heaslip alongside him. He was churning out the yards for fun as teams knew Heaslip could either carry or link play.

I've criticised his lack of variety in the past and his inability to develop his game but when it comes to carrying the issue is not Stander....it's that teams are completely reliant on Stander as those around him couldn't carry water.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

Nobody is a carrying threat at the top level when they have POM and VDF/Cloete/TOD alongside them for Munster or Ireland. Teams know they can build a plan around nullifying him as there aren't enough options to share the load. Go back to when he first came on the scene for Ireland in 2016 and 2017 with Heaslip alongside him. He was churning out the yards for fun as teams knew Heaslip could either carry or link play.

I've criticised his lack of variety in the past and his inability to develop his game but when it comes to carrying the issue is not Stander....it's that teams are completely reliant on Stander as those around him couldn't carry water.

for munster, if they have kilcoyne fit, with Snyman and beirne, wytcherly from the bench.. and sometimes scannell... who all can offer hard carrying, the CJs role can change.
Wytcherly and Beirne carried great yards in the first game against Leinster.

in green i still think 6 is his best position where he can do the hard yard carries and by doing that can open the file dup for a doris / conan / deegan type for more dynamic carries.
kind of how heaslip was employed in his later years to open space up for SOB and CJ

Richie_Rich89

Yeah, Stander at 6 and Doris at 8 seems like a bit of a no brainer.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Wytcherly and Beirne carried great yards in the first game against Leinster.

I agree with your post overall Syd, and this is just a small thing, but Beirne didn't play in the first game. To my mind, Beirne always seems to struggle with his carrying against Leinster.

shootermacg

I'll say it, CJ is probably the best rugby player in Ireland. He's pretty much the complete back row.

TomsOnTheRoof

Stander has consistently been the best backrow in the country over the past season and a half. His carrying isn't as dynamic as when he first broke onto the scene but as others have noted that's more a personnel issue than an issue with CJ himself. Munster's tight five is poor and they don't have another ball carrying backrower in the squad with the exception of O'Donoghue (unproven at top level) or O'Sullivan (neophyte).

I see one or two of the usual suspects are once again claiming Stander is past it as his carrying game isn't what it was. This is the same fella that won 6 turnovers in his first two games back and another few against Connacht and Leinster. Any player who can win three turnovers against the best pack in Europe is worth a spot in the national side. When you factor in his tackle count and his workrate then his selection is basically non-negotiable. Jesus with Doris and VdF and possibly Leavy we have the makings of a great backrow in green but people still need the provincial point scoring. Laughable

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

I agree with your post overall Syd, and this is just a small thing, but Beirne didn't play in the first game. To my mind, Beirne always seems to struggle with his carrying against Leinster.

My bad, got my games mixed up, must have been the connacht game where he made great yards

sydthebeat

shootermacg wrote: »

I'll say it, CJ is probably the best rugby player in Ireland. He's pretty much the complete back row.

Nah, hasn't shown that he has hands to be link player in space. I'd look to James Ryan for an example of what I mean

TomsOnTheRoof

aloooof wrote: »

I agree with your post overall Syd, and this is just a small thing, but Beirne didn't play in the first game. To my mind, Beirne always seems to struggle with his carrying against Leinster.

Beirne is great at picking a flat line. I think the reason he struggles against Leinster is because their defence is never really at a loss against us. Our lack of dominant carriers allows them to reset their line time and time again and lessens the impact of players like Beirne taking a good line. The speed of our recycle and our predictability only compound the matter.

AbusesToilets

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Stander has consistently been the best backrow in the country over the past season and a half. His carrying isn't as dynamic as when he first broke onto the scene but as others have noted that's more a personnel issue than an issue with CJ himself. Munster's tight five is poor and they don't have another ball carrying backrower in the squad with the exception of O'Donoghue (unproven at top level) or O'Sullivan (neophyte).

I see one or two of the usual suspects are once again claiming Stander is past it as his carrying game isn't what it was. This is the same fella that won 6 turnovers in his first two games back and another few against Connacht and Leinster. Any player who can win three turnovers against the best pack in Europe is worth a spot in the national side. When you factor in his tackle count and his workrate then his selection is basically non-negotiable. Jesus with Doris and VdF and possibly Leavy we have the makings of a great backrow in green but people still need the provincial point scoring. Laughable

Quite a few of those turnovers were blatantly illegal, and would likely get called up by a competent ref. Stander is what he is, carries hard into traffic, makes tackles and hits rucks. He's not a good passer or particularly good as a link man in an attacking set. I think there are better options available now for Ireland. What would be lost having Doris at 6 and Conan or Deegan at 8? You'd have similar work rate and breakdown impact, and gain better carriers to boot.