Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

thomond2006

CJ has been the form forward at Munster. I don't think there should be any concerns about him.

TomsOnTheRoof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Quite a few of those turnovers were blatantly illegal, and would likely get called up by a competent ref. Stander is what he is, carries hard into traffic, makes tackles and hits rucks. He's not a good passer or particularly good as a link man in an attacking set. I think there are better options available now for Ireland. What would be lost having Doris at 6 and Conan or Deegan at 8? You'd have similar work rate and breakdown impact, and gain better carriers to boot.

Stander carries into hard traffic. He is frequently top two for tackles made. Over the past season he has established himself as the best breakdown forward in the country. He is also quite often our top passer in the pack. When I highlighted this during the RWC I was told that they "weren't the right kind of passes". Now it's a case of his breakdown play being "blatantly illegal". Sorry but this is nonsense. First of all every good backrower flirts with illegality and secondly, no other backrower in the country is currently offering what Stander is at the breakdown. Furthermore it is very difficult to be a link man when you're sole remit in attack is to truck up crap ball. That is a coaching issue moreso than a player issue and it occurs at both provincial and national level.

It seems that no matter what Stander achieves or offers it will never be good enough for some. He is a better 8 than Conan and I find it laughable that you can criticise Stander for his supposed deficiencies and "blatant illegality" when Conan spent the entire semi final giving away stupid penalties.

AbusesToilets

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Stander carries into hard traffic. He is frequently top two for tackles made. Over the past season he has established himself as the best breakdown forward in the country. He is also quite often our top passer in the pack. When I highlighted this during the RWC I was told that they "weren't the right kind of passes". Now it's a case of his breakdown play being "blatantly illegal". Sorry but this is nonsense. First of all every good backrower flirts with illegality and secondly, no other backrower in the country is currently offering what Stander is at the breakdown. Furthermore it is very difficult to be a link man when you're sole remit in attack is to truck up crap ball. That is a coaching issue moreso than a player issue and it occurs at both provincial and national level.

It seems that no matter what Stander achieves or offers it will never be good enough for some. He is a better 8 than Conan and I find it laughable that you can criticise Stander for his supposed deficiencies and "blatant illegality" when Conan spent the entire semi final giving away stupid penalties.

Calling stander the best breakdown player in Ireland is too much man. He's pretty solid there, but nowhere near the calibre of the best in the game. He's not singlehandedly disrupting an attack the way Pocock or Warburton could. He had his nose in the dirt multiple times against Leinster, a decent ref would call call that most times. The fact he got away with it doesn't mean that's something to trumpet. It was a joke how poor some of those calls were.

I'll take your point that he suffers from poor coaching, but at this stage of his career he's unlikely to change ingrained habits. He doesn't look for the offload after breaking the defensive line for example, that's a hallmark of top carriers in the game. He'd struggle to execute a draw and pass out in the waiver channels, the way Baird for example did recently. He's very reminiscent of POC in how he plays imo. That's not explicitly a bad thing by any means, but we have players who can do more.

Burkie1203

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

I see one or two of the usual suspects are once again claiming Stander is past it as his carrying game isn't what it was. This is the same fella that won 6 turnovers in his first two games back and another few against Connacht and Leinster.

Turnovers and ball carrying are two separate traits. Standers breakdown capabilities have improved in the last few years but his ball carrying has become far less effective. Thats happening for a variety of reasons IMO

- he hasn't developed enough variation to his game to keep defences thinking. Teams know what he will do. Modern defences will mop that up all day long

- the platform for carrying hasn't been good enough at both Munster and Ireland (2019). A 2nd quality ball carrying option in the back row would make an enormous difference if teams cannot be 99% sure where the ball is going. First min of RWC QF v NZ a prime example. NZ players all shouting 8 8 8 8. Stander held up, scrum, few phases try. Game done.

- at Munster especially, quality teams back their defence against Munsters poor quality back play. Stander can make a few metres but the ball is slow and the defence have time to line up 10 or 11 guys across the field.

aloooof

I dunno, lads... you're criticising him for penalties he hasn't even given away, and assuming he won't change his technique if penalised / for different referees.

In reality, he's been by far the most effective Irish jackaler since rugby returned, with the new interpretations.

Of the alternatives being suggested Conan (who I'm a fan of) has had a number of dodgy ruck entries himself, and Deegan doesn't offer anywhere near the same jackal threat. (He hadn't won a single jackal turnover after 889 minutes of rugby this season).

I honestly think if I was making a list of concerns for this Irish team, CJ wouldn’t be make the top 10.

Heres Johnny

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Calling stander the best breakdown player in Ireland is too much man. He's pretty solid there, but nowhere near the calibre of the best in the game. He's not singlehandedly disrupting an attack the way Pocock or Warburton could. He had his nose in the dirt multiple times against Leinster, a decent ref would call call that most times. The fact he got away with it doesn't mean that's something to trumpet. It was a joke how poor some of those calls were.

I'll take your point that he suffers from poor coaching, but at this stage of his career he's unlikely to change ingrained habits. He doesn't look for the offload after breaking the defensive line for example, that's a hallmark of top carriers in the game. He'd struggle to execute a draw and pass out in the waiver channels, the way Baird for example did recently. He's very reminiscent of POC in how he plays imo. That's not explicitly a bad thing by any means, but we have players who can do more.

You've highlighted and compared him to pocock (I agree with you there, he was a great player) and Warburton in a discussion about Irelands best breakdown player. Compare him to the alternatives we have.

molloyjh

Give defences another carrier or two to think about and CJs carrying will improve. His performances at the breakdown have been impressive. If he was a Leinster man would the same people be saying the same things about his technique?

I've been saying it for a while but I'd move him to 6. Stick Doris or Conan at 8 and VDF at 7. Its balanced and offers an additional ball carrier.

Rigor Mortis

aloooof wrote: »

I dunno, lads... you're criticising him for penalties he hasn't even given away, and assuming he won't change his technique if penalised / for different referees.

In reality, he's been by far the most effective Irish jackaler since rugby returned, with the new interpretations.

Of the alternatives being suggested Conan (who I'm a fan of) has had a number of dodgy ruck entries himself, and Deegan doesn't offer anywhere near the same jackal threat. (He hadn't won a single jackal turnover after 889 minutes of rugby this season).

I honestly think if I was making a list of concerns for this Irish team, CJ wouldn’t be make the top 10.

Doris is an alternative 8 and he has been winning Jackal penalties to beat the band.
I agree though, i dont see any reason for CJ to be moved on yet. It is good though that we have an increasing pool of options. I think Conan will resolve his issue pretty quickly, one or two of Saturday's penalties were legitimate turnovers and he was v unlucky.

aloooof

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Doris is an alternative 8 and he has been winning Jackal penalties to beat the band.
I agree though, i dont see any reason for CJ to be moved on yet. It is good though that we have an increasing pool of options. I think Conan will resolve his issue pretty quickly, one or two of Saturday's penalties were legitimate turnovers and he was v unlucky.

Yep, agreed, but Doris' inclusion shouldn't mean CJ's exclusion. I'd agree with Molloy, 6. Stander, 7. VDF and 8. Doris / Conan seems like the way to go. (Personally, I'd favour Doris but would have no issues with Conan).

Yeah_Right

molloyjh wrote: »

Give defences another carrier or two to think about and CJs carrying will improve. His performances at the breakdown have been impressive. If he was a Leinster man would the same people be saying the same things about his technique?

I've been saying it for a while but I'd move him to 6. Stick Doris or Conan at 8 and VDF at 7. Its balanced and offers an additional ball carrier.

I'd like to see Ireland use a quick, skillfull forward in the wide channels in the way the ABs have with Read, Savea, Retallick, Coles etc. Making breaks and linking with the outside backs then being there to secure quick ball if they get caught.

I think Doris, Deegan, Leavy and Conan could be those players. The problem is if those players are only your loose forwards, the balance of the trio can be off. Ideally they need one of the tight forwards to be able to do this as well. Maybe Kelleher is the man for that but I don't see any others in Ireland that could play that role.

sydthebeat

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'd like to see Ireland use a quick, skillfull forward in the wide channels in the way the ABs have with Read, Savea, Retallick, Coles etc. Making breaks and linking with the outside backs then being there to secure quick ball if they get caught.
.

isnt that where POM usually hangs out......

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

isnt that where POM usually hangs out......

Yeah but I'd like them to use a forward who is quick. And skillful. So not POM

Tomtom364

The main thing CJ needs to assist his carrying, as others have pointed out, is another ball carrier or two for the defense to be worried about.
Nobody can make dominant carries when the defense are solely focused on them.

Ill try to find the clips but thinking back to earlier this season when Munster deployed Arno Botha and CJ in the same back row on a few occasions and it had an intimidate positive effect on CJs Carrying

Richie_Rich89

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'd like to see Ireland use a quick, skillfull forward in the wide channels in the way the ABs have with Read, Savea, Retallick, Coles etc. Making breaks and linking with the outside backs then being there to secure quick ball if they get caught.

I think Doris, Deegan, Leavy and Conan could be those players. The problem is if those players are only your loose forwards, the balance of the trio can be off. Ideally they need one of the tight forwards to be able to do this as well. Maybe Kelleher is the man for that but I don't see any others in Ireland that could play that role.

Baird?

Eod100

Fairly stark stuff here: https://www.rte.ie/amp/1165992/?__twitter_impression=true

awec

The problem is the IRFU are reliant on a handful of big games a year to make their money. All the eggs are in the Ireland basket, they need the big sellout fixtures in November and February for the cash to come in.

And they'll be the last thing to come back.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

The problem is the IRFU are reliant on a handful of big games a year to make their money. All the eggs are in the Ireland basket, they need the big sellout fixtures in November and February for the cash to come in.

And they'll be the last thing to come back.

You're not wrong but also not sure what the alternative is. People in general don't want want to pay for rugby bar big marquee fixtures.

Utah_Saint

Eod100 wrote: »

Fairly stark stuff here: https://www.rte.ie/amp/1165992/?__twitter_impression=true

They should ask the Welsh RFU how they have survived without any fans at club games :pac:

bilston

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but if they could get 5,000 into the Aviva at a loss, why not stick 50% (or whatever it takes to break even) on the price of a ticket. I reckon they'd sell them easily enough.

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but if they could get 5,000 into the Aviva at a loss, why not stick 50% (or whatever it takes to break even) on the price of a ticket. I reckon they'd sell them easily enough.

Breaking even doesn’t Help they need a profit.

bilston

salmocab wrote: »

Breaking even doesn’t Help they need a profit.

Well it is better than making a loss, but yeah I realise that. Add whatever they need to make a profit. It won't be huge, but its better than making a loss.

I'm sure there are enough people in Ireland who would be happy to pay €150 to watch a live Ireland rugby match his Autumn to sell 7,000 tickets (given two metre rule).

I'd have no problem attending a sporting event with 7,000 people in a 50,000 seater stadium. Would I be so keen if it is 18,000 (one metre rule), not sure...I'd certainly give it more thought.

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

Well it is better than making a loss, but yeah I realise that. Add whatever they need to make a profit. It won't be huge, but its better than making a loss.

I'm sure there are enough people in Ireland who would be happy to pay €150 to watch a live Ireland rugby match his Autumn to sell 7,000 tickets (given two metre rule).

I'd have no problem attending a sporting event with 7,000 people in a 50,000 seater stadium. Would I be so keen if it is 18,000 (one metre rule), not sure...I'd certainly give it more thought.

The thing is opening the stadium costs money so not having spectators and opening it with enough spectators to break even amounts to the same thing.

irelandrover

salmocab wrote: »

The thing is opening the stadium costs money so not having spectators and opening it with enough spectators to break even amounts to the same thing.

Surely they have to open the stadium to play a match anyway. So if they dont have spectators they make a loss.

arsebiscuits1

Opening the stadium doesn't cost too much money when you own it and don't have to factor in crowds.

Yes the skeleton operating crew need to be paid as do lights etc. etc.

But they're not paying caterers, stewards and everything else involved in having 52000 people there

Squidgy Black

irelandrover wrote: »

Surely they have to open the stadium to play a match anyway. So if they dont have spectators they make a loss.

Big difference in security, stewards, health and safety staff, catering etc and then clean up etc for spectators compared to just opening it up for the teams and a handful of media.

salmocab

irelandrover wrote: »

Surely they have to open the stadium to play a match anyway. So if they dont have spectators they make a loss.

Opening with crowds needs all the temporary staff as others have said plus costs to be paid to the Gardai for policing.
Opening with a small crowd that has to spread out means opening most sections which means a large number of steward and cleaners more so than if the crowd was all sitting in the one area.
Obviously none of us has access to the figures but there has to be a breaking point that makes financial sense money and attendance wise.

bilston

I think player welfare may not be so much of a consideration over the next 2-3 years. The Unions will want as many games as possible to get money, even TV money...

Eod100

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn't normally suggest this, but if they could get 5,000 into the Aviva at a loss, why not stick 50% (or whatever it takes to break even) on the price of a ticket. I reckon they'd sell them easily enough.

I guess because it's not looking like that sort of attendance will be possible when Ireland play next. 5,000 figure was floated about but figure in living with covid document is 200 for rest of country, was 100 in Dublin which is now 0 of course. I can't see 5,000 being allowed this year unfortunately.

Burkie1203

JGP the best 9 so far in last 4 or 5 weeks? If a team for Italy was picked on recent form he is the one delivering the best performances.

Dog Botherer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

JGP the best 9 so far in last 4 or 5 weeks? If a team for Italy was picked on recent form he is the one delivering the best performances.

JGP or Marmion. no one else has played at a level above mediocre, really.