Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

shootermacg

I think the government needs to step up for major sports. They have no problem placing a levy on my pension when it's fat cats getting burned.
I in turn, have no problem with a levy to help out when it comes to the social fabric.

RugbyLover123

Should Leinster and Ireland not be looking at getting Baird to play at 6 ala PSDT? The game is all about power these days and at 6’5 Baird is small for a modern day 2nd Row.

A 4,5,6 of Ryan, Ahern/Henderson, Baird come 2023 would be better able to handle that power game that the likes of South Africa and England bring.

Burkie1203

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Should Leinster and Ireland not be looking at getting Baird to play at 6 ala PSDT? The game is all about power these days and at 6’5 Baird is small for a modern day 2nd Row.

A 4,5,6 of Ryan, Ahern/Henderson, Baird come 2023 would be better able to handle that power game that the likes of South Africa and England bring.

Biggest issue is Leinster are overloaded with backrows. Toner and Fardy are mid 30s.

The financial picture painted by Philip Browne has me thinking we may lose a province for a few seasons or we may see one be handed over to private owners in some form.

shootermacg

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Should Leinster and Ireland not be looking at getting Baird to play at 6 ala PSDT? The game is all about power these days and at 6’5 Baird is small for a modern day 2nd Row.

A 4,5,6 of Ryan, Ahern/Henderson, Baird come 2023 would be better able to handle that power game that the likes of South Africa and England bring.

No, England have often tried to stick second rows into the back row Courtney Lawes etc. Bigger is not always better.
Great players emerge in the cauldron, Sean o' Brien, Ferris, Wallace etc.

When these guys came on the scene there was no argument of them not starting.

The problem is with the current crop you really do not have any real stand outs, plenty of good solid players around. You could probably play Deegan, Dorris, PoM, Conan etc and not see much difference.

It's just one of those things with small player populations, sometimes you just don't have world class breaking through. But be in no doubt, when they do, you'll notice.

Ryan was the last truly great player we've produced, hopefully some more will come through soon.

Heres Johnny

shootermacg wrote: »

No, England have often tried to stick second rows into the back row Courtney Lawes etc. Bigger is not always better.
Great players emerge in the cauldron, Sean o' Brien, Ferris, Wallace etc.

When these guys came on the scene there was no argument of them not starting.

The problem is with the current crop you really do not have any real stand outs, plenty of good solid players around. You could probably play Deegan, Dorris, PoM, Conan etc and not see much difference.

It's just one of those things with small player populations, sometimes you just don't have world class breaking through. But be in no doubt, when they do, you'll notice.

Ryan was the last truly great player we've produced, hopefully some more will come through soon.

I think I'm alone in this but I don't see in Ryan what others do. Good player of course he deserves Irish starting spot but I don't see him as superior to other Irish first choice players at the moment. I don't see him as a great. Would have Henderson as his equal to be honest.

shootermacg

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I think I'm alone in this but I don't see in Ryan what others do. Good player of course he deserves Irish starting spot but I don't see him as superior to other Irish first choice players at the moment. I don't see him as a great. Would have Henderson as his equal to be honest.

Go back and watch the last Ireland vs England game again. Just watch CJ and Ryan and Itoje closely, they were men amongst boys.

Dwarf.Shortage

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I think I'm alone in this but I don't see in Ryan what others do. Good player of course he deserves Irish starting spot but I don't see him as superior to other Irish first choice players at the moment. I don't see him as a great. Would have Henderson as his equal to be honest.

He is a victim of being mundanely totemic. Rarely a huge carry or flashy poach etc but he is a world class on the coalface type forward.

OneLungDavy

Demented Mole sums up Ryan perfectly for me.

"More and more duties were laid at his door over the course of 2019, and he put them all on his back and plowed forward. Right-side lock, lineout caller, go-to ball-carrier, captain-in-waiting … it looks like he’s had all the fun he’s going to get out of rugby in the first two years of his career, and now it’s just going to be a decade of responsibilities and press conferences.

Ryan’s assumption of all most demanding physical roles of the Irish team has been assimilated by the Irish rugby public to the point that it’s essentially taken for granted. He is almost always Ireland’s best forward; if not the outright best, then one of a pair...."

Paul Smeenus

Ryan is many things. "Taken for granted" is very, very far from being one of them.

clsmooth

Has to be a big worry that we’ve had 3 comprehensive beatings by England and Leinster have had similar losses to Sarries over the past 18 months as have Munster. Doesn’t inspire confidence for another visit to Twickenham on the 21st of November when a lot of our starters have 4/5 defeats on the bounce to the same players.

Has to be concerns over our front 5. Healy has looked a bit lightweight since 2018. Furlong needs to regain his top form. Kelleher looks a cracking player who can front up physically if he can nail his darts. Hopefully we can see Henderson consistently impose himself in the bigger games. Ryan has shown the ability to match them physically. Whilst I think there’s been a lot of chat about the balance of our back row which is undoubtedly an issue, I think the bigger issue since 2018 has been our front 5s inability to dominate teams to the same extent that they did before.

sydthebeat

Maybe it's time Ireland and leinster got some "outside the box" scrum coaching help from someone like Shin Hasegawa. There will always be days when you come up against a better scrum, so you'd need to have all the tricks up your sleeve just in case.

I don't remember at any stage yesterday leinster tried a channel one ball. I don't recall any scrum having the ball out within one second, and I can only recall one scrum where it was out fast enough to say it was a quick ball.

No scrum, no win. Its quite simple. We will never be the biggest pack in the world, so we should have more upstairs when our comes to competing with bigger packs

Clegg

Stockdale's having a bit of a mare at fullback. Very slim pickings if Farrell is looking to select on form.

Synode

Clegg wrote: »

Stockdale's having a bit of a mare at fullback. Very slim pickings if Farrell is looking to select on form.

Lowry is at full back

bilston

Synode wrote: »

Lowry is at full back

Lowry is at out half. Burns went off injured after 20 minutes.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Stockdale's having a bit of a mare at fullback. Very slim pickings if Farrell is looking to select on form.

He has been humiliated by Kolbe twice and there was one really poor drop.

I think getting beaten one on one by Kolbe is something that will happen to pretty much anyone.

Still he hasn't had a great 40 minutes.

The IRFU may offer Kearney a new central contract!!

Synode

bilston wrote: »

Lowry is at out half. Burns went off injured after 20 minutes.

Missed that

Clegg

bilston wrote: »

He has been humiliated by Kolbe twice and there was one really poor drop.

I think getting beaten one on one by Kolbe is something that will happen to pretty much anyone.

Still he hasn't had a great 40 minutes.

The IRFU may offer Kearney a new central contract!!

He hasn't just struggled against Kolbe though. He had a defensive mare against Edinburgh and another against Leinster. The Leinster one was particularly bad as Larnour didn't even step him. Just ran right at him at Stockdale flapped at a tackle.

On form he doesn't make Ireland's 23.

shootermacg

There's a lot more to being a back 3 player than just the act of jumping and catching. It's 99% positioning. If you look at all Kearny's catches, he's almost always jumping into the ball along it's path. His positioning and nous are reason for this.

Then there's the skill of claiming the ball at the highest possible point, DK and Conway are also great at this. If they don't catch the ball, they're moving forward in the air at such pace as to milk the penalty. They land going forward and make yards allowing support to be on the front foot. They take a pressure situation and turn it into an advantage.

Larmour and Lowe are competent fielders, but when they come up against top class opposition, the weaknesses in their game shows through and they become a liability.

I'd be looking to get Henshaw working with Kearny and give him another crack at FB. He's a strong, tall, athletic player who just needs time to settle and some coaching from one of the best fielders in rugby.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe it's time Ireland and leinster got some "outside the box" scrum coaching help from someone like Shin Hasegawa. There will always be days when you come up against a better scrum, so you'd need to have all the tricks up your sleeve just in case.

I don't remember at any stage yesterday leinster tried a channel one ball. I don't recall any scrum having the ball out within one second, and I can only recall one scrum where it was out fast enough to say it was a quick ball.

No scrum, no win. Its quite simple. We will never be the biggest pack in the world, so we should have more upstairs when our comes to competing with bigger packs

Leinster actually did use channel one ball in the second half iirc. And hooked it cleanly and McGrath got it away super quick (from the feet of Doris no less!)

But your hooking strategy is totally irrelevant if you don't have the put in.



Leinster's scrummaging problem is Sean Cronin. This was known when he was selected. Koch had an absolute dream of a day on him. Leinster used to select around that (I remember Tracy starting against Munster because of that concern not too long ago). He was given the crook at half time but that was their biggest, maybe only, selection mistake yesterday. Cronin surely won't be risked against a 2/3 combo of that quality ever again.

But in reality scrums are a symptom of errors. Those errors and shocking control of the game were Leinster's problem yesterday and the inability to stop Koch just meant those errors were penalised more harshly. Even if we'd held every scrum, we were still going to be giving them first phase ball in our half. The scrum was not the losing of the game, the source of those scrums was the losing of the game.


I'm afraid I don't really have confidence that Ireland would have done any better. Ireland obviously are a better team all over but I don't think they are better where it mattered yesterday (half-backs, coaching)

clsmooth

Clegg wrote: »

He hasn't just struggled against Kolbe though. He had a defensive mare against Edinburgh and another against Leinster. The Leinster one was particularly bad as Larnour didn't even step him. Just ran right at him at Stockdale flapped at a tackle.

On form he doesn't make Ireland's 23.

If he didn’t have that amazing year in 2018 (I know it’s conveniently forgetting a great year for him) would he be in the discussion for a starting place on the wing ahead of Conway, Larmour and Earls? He’s been poor enough for the best part of 2 years.. even in 2018 he had moments which went his way but could have gone wrong (intercept against Wales, blockdown vs NZ).. I think we expect him to be scoring tries for fun and making breaks but it’s looking more and more like 2018 was the exception rather than the rule. He’s a great finisher and we haven’t been putting him into the positions to show that but he has big holes in his game and makes too many mistakes. He’d be in the discussion for the Lions squad if it was picked right now for what he did in 2018 but on form he shouldn’t be anywhere near that either. Big year ahead for him.

Clegg

This has been one of the worst weekends for Irish rugby in a good while. These are our two best provinces and both were dismantled by their opposition. Some very big selection calls will have to be made rather soon. Italy next month is a gimme, but we've France a week after that.

It's clear that most of Ireland's problems lie in the pack, but the backs are a concern too. We've problems at loose head, hooker, back row, half backs and back three. Healy is on the wane and Kilcoyne has never been particularly good. At least not test standard good. Dunno who to select there. Maybe give O'Sullivan a go? Jack McGrath isn't the answer. He's still young for a prop, but he's not half as good as he was when he was selected for the Lions.

Ronan Kelleher will be Ireland's long term hooker, but only when he can be trusted at the lineout. Every other facet of his game is strong. For now Herring is probably first choice, but again that's not particularly inspiring.

Doris and Stander must start in the backrow. Only decision to make is in which position. On the strength of recent performances I'd give VDF the 7 jersey. Connors is a better tackler but the former has the more rounded game.

Half backs are a mess. Murray isn't the player he was in 2018. It's been two years now and I'm comfortable saying he'll never be that player again. Time to move on, but every other option underwhelming. Sexton can still be great in his day, but he's just old now. His ability to think when his team is under pressure has deserted him too. Harry Byrne is the long term replacement but he isn't ready yet.

In the back three Larmour is struggling with his positioning at 15 and Stockdale when it comes to defending. At least we have some decent options available to us. Conway should be a starter at 14 or 15 and Earls can still do a job. Bring in Lowe when qualified and Balacoune as soon as he's fit and things aren't so bad. Larmour and Stockdale are both brilliant when in form too. Just need time back with their provinces to build confidence.

JJJackal

Does anyone think Kelliher starting over Cronin could have let to a better outcome yesterday?

Ulster may not be our second best province - certainly not on post lockdown form

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

This has been one of the worst weekends for Irish rugby in a good while. These are our two best provinces and both were dismantled by their opposition. Some very big selection calls will have to be made rather soon. Italy next month is a gimme, but we've France a week after that.

It's clear that most of Ireland's problems lie in the pack, but the backs are a concern too. We've problems at loose head, hooker, back row, half backs and back three. Healy is on the wane and Kilcoyne has never been particularly good. At least not test standard good. Dunno who to select there. Maybe give O'Sullivan a go? Jack McGrath isn't the answer. He's still young for a prop, but he's not half as good as he was when he was selected for the Lions.

Ronan Kelleher will be Ireland's long term hooker, but only when he can be trusted at the lineout. Every other facet of his game is strong. For now Herring is probably first choice, but again that's not particularly inspiring.

Doris and Stander must start in the backrow. Only decision to make is in which position. On the strength of recent performances I'd give VDF the 7 jersey. Connors is a better tackler but the former has the more rounded game.

Half backs are a mess. Murray isn't the player he was in 2018. It's been two years now and I'm comfortable saying he'll never be that player again. Time to move on, but every other option underwhelming. Sexton can still be great in his day, but he's just old now. His ability to think when his team is under pressure has deserted him too. Harry Byrne is the long term replacement but he isn't ready yet.

In the back three Larmour is struggling with his positioning at 15 and Stockdale when it comes to defending. At least we have some decent options available to us. Conway should be a starter at 14 or 15 and Earls can still do a job. Bring in Lowe when qualified and Balacoune as soon as he's fit and things aren't so bad. Larmour and Stockdale are both brilliant when in form too. Just need time back with their provinces to build confidence.

JGP at 9. He has been very good IMO

kuang1

Burkie1203 wrote: »

JGP at 9. He has been very good IMO

I'd have Marmion ahead of everyone.

Jump_In_Jack

IMO we would do better with a powerful 120+kg tight-head lock.
Kleyn or Roux are the closest we have but neither are brilliant.
John Madigan was potentially such a player before he moved to France.
Kieran Treadwell has potential to be that type of player.
Ryan, Henderson and Beirne are all loose-head locks, and could probably all do a job at blind-side flanker.

There might be a few in the academies that might have potential to be moulded into that type of player.

Guinness RFC

shootermacg wrote: »

There's a lot more to being a back 3 player than just the act of jumping and catching. It's 99% positioning. If you look at all Kearny's catches, he's almost always jumping into the ball along it's path. His positioning and nous are reason for this.

Then there's the skill of claiming the ball at the highest possible point, DK and Conway are also great at this. If they don't catch the ball, they're moving forward in the air at such pace as to milk the penalty. They land going forward and make yards allowing support to be on the front foot. They take a pressure situation and turn it into an advantage.

Larmour and Lowe are competent fielders, but when they come up against top class opposition, the weaknesses in their game shows through and they become a liability.

I'd be looking to get Henshaw working with Kearny and give him another crack at FB. He's a strong, tall, athletic player who just needs time to settle and some coaching from one of the best fielders in rugby.

Don’t expect Kearney to divulge his excellence about fielding any time soon. His brother and him are great at doing the job when it’s asked of them but they want themselves and only themselves to shine. Does Larmour look like he’s been imparted with the knowledge about body position and positioning around the park? Nope.

He hasn’t shown that he’s been taught by one of the greatest fielders that ever existed. Keenan has shown somewhat that skill but he often mistimes his run up to the ball and arrives when it hits the ground. It’s all about timing and not accepting being sheparded out of the line necessary to take the ball.

Firstly you look at the trajectory of the ball and you judge where you are going to contest for it. Then you look back to the players on the park and you make a hay line for it and push the opposing players out of your way if necessary but a good fielder will just sidestep opposing players blocking them and take the line for the place the ball will land. Then you time your jump and you jump sideways with your leading leg up. Sideways. If you spill it goes backwards. If you jump with your body facing the opposition you will spill forwards.

Then it’s about jump technique, trajectory and power off the ground. With your Tighe leading into the contact you shield your body from impact another advantage of taking the ball sideways. Why these players coming through haven’t shown glimpses of these fundamentals are anyone’s guess. Keenan the only one with some glimpses of it.

The most important attribute Is total commitment to put your body on the line to secure the ball in the air even if it results in landing on your neck. Total commitment breeds confidence and it’s not showing in our players when they contest. They’re not willing to collide with opposition in the air and land on their neck. That’s sometimes what it takes

mfceiling

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Don’t expect Kearney to divulge his excellence about fielding any time soon. His brother and him are great at doing the job when it’s asked of them but they want themselves and only themselves to shine. Does Larmour look like he’s been imparted with the knowledge about body position and positioning around the park? Nope.

He hasn’t shown that he’s been taught by one of the greatest fielders that ever existed.

Please tell me you're joking right? You think that in training when Leo and Lancaster get individual players to work together in pods that RK has said "nope"... I'm the only player with the nous and skill to be fullback and I'm not divulging any of that to any of these young upstarts.

Go away out of that.

Guinness RFC

mfceiling wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking right? You think that in training when Leo and Lancaster get individual players to work together in pods that RK has said "nope"... I'm the only player with the nous and skill to be fullback and I'm not divulging any of that to any of these young upstarts.

Go away out of that.

It was an observation that either the players aren’t learning from him or aren’t being taught. It was said tongue in cheek with a dose of humour attached.

shootermacg

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Don’t expect Kearney to divulge his excellence about fielding any time soon. His brother and him are great at doing the job when it’s asked of them but they want themselves and only themselves to shine. Does Larmour look like he’s been imparted with the knowledge about body position and positioning around the park? Nope.

He hasn’t shown that he’s been taught by one of the greatest fielders that ever existed. Keenan has shown somewhat that skill but he often mistimes his run up to the ball and arrives when it hits the ground. It’s all about timing and not accepting being sheparded out of the line necessary to take the ball.

Firstly you look at the trajectory of the ball and you judge where you are going to contest for it. Then you look back to the players on the park and you make a hay line for it and push the opposing players out of your way if necessary but a good fielder will just sidestep opposing players blocking them and take the line for the place the ball will land. Then you time your jump and you jump sideways with your leading leg up. Sideways. If you spill it goes backwards. If you jump with your body facing the opposition you will spill forwards.

Then it’s about jump technique, trajectory and power off the ground. With your Tighe leading into the contact you shield your body from impact another advantage of taking the ball sideways. Why these players coming through haven’t shown glimpses of these fundamentals are anyone’s guess. Keenan the only one with some glimpses of it.

The most important attribute Is total commitment to put your body on the line to secure the ball in the air even if it results in landing on your neck. Total commitment breeds confidence and it’s not showing in our players when they contest. They’re not willing to collide with opposition in the air and land on their neck. That’s sometimes what it takes

Tnaks for the tip.....that's sarcasm by the way.

shootermacg

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Don’t expect Kearney to divulge his excellence about fielding any time soon. His brother and him are great at doing the job when it’s asked of them but they want themselves and only themselves to shine. Does Larmour look like he’s been imparted with the knowledge about body position and positioning around the park? Nope.

He hasn’t shown that he’s been taught by one of the greatest fielders that ever existed. Keenan has shown somewhat that skill but he often mistimes his run up to the ball and arrives when it hits the ground. It’s all about timing and not accepting being sheparded out of the line necessary to take the ball.

Firstly you look at the trajectory of the ball and you judge where you are going to contest for it. Then you look back to the players on the park and you make a hay line for it and push the opposing players out of your way if necessary but a good fielder will just sidestep opposing players blocking them and take the line for the place the ball will land. Then you time your jump and you jump sideways with your leading leg up. Sideways. If you spill it goes backwards. If you jump with your body facing the opposition you will spill forwards.

Then it’s about jump technique, trajectory and power off the ground. With your Tighe leading into the contact you shield your body from impact another advantage of taking the ball sideways. Why these players coming through haven’t shown glimpses of these fundamentals are anyone’s guess. Keenan the only one with some glimpses of it.

The most important attribute Is total commitment to put your body on the line to secure the ball in the air even if it results in landing on your neck. Total commitment breeds confidence and it’s not showing in our players when they contest. They’re not willing to collide with opposition in the air and land on their neck. That’s sometimes what it takes

Thanks for the tip.....that's sarcasm by the way.