Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

ionadnapokot

last go
i would want Baird on the bench. ok?
but it will not happen.
Thanks

molloyjh

Why do people have to be so bloody miserable about this stuff!? If its causing that much frustration just step away. Some of us would like to actually enjoy rugby rather than wallow in constant misery about it.

aloooof

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Yes and in that instance I would have Baird ahead of Beirne. You have selected Beirne on your bench and turned around and said you would have Baird ahead of him. Weird.

He said it in the first post, "I think we are going to see...".
Which is distinct from "I would like to see".

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

Why do people have to be so bloody miserable about this stuff!? If its causing that much frustration just step away. Some of us would like to actually enjoy rugby rather than wallow in constant misery about it.

I think some of it is a frustration with a continuation of failed ideas.

ionadnapokot

molloyjh wrote: »

Why do people have to be so bloody miserable about this stuff!? If its causing that much frustration just step away. Some of us would like to actually enjoy rugby rather than wallow in constant misery about it.

Genuine question
Did you enjoy watching Ireland in the 2019 6N, RWC and 2020 6N?

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I think some of it is a frustration with a continuation of failed ideas.

The same kind of thing was levelled at him for the Scotland game. Where he had 5 changes to the starting 15 from the RWC.

Farrell's had 3 games. He's won 2 of them. He's now named a squad with 6 uncapped players.

Can we give the guy a chance? Let's see what start 15 he picks. I expect to see some change.

Guinness RFC

ionadnapokot wrote: »

last go
i would want Baird on the bench. ok?
but it will not happen.
Thanks

My apologies. I stand corrected.

AbusesToilets

aloooof wrote: »

The same kind of thing was levelled at him for the Scotland game. Where he had 5 changes to the starting 15 from the RWC.

Farrell's had 3 games. He's won 2 of them. He's now named a squad with 6 uncapped players.

Can we give the guy a chance? Let's see what start 15 he picks. I expect to see some change.

Of course, but there's justifiably some skepticism. I mean Farrell was involved in Schmidt's coaching ticket for a long time, he had direct input into how the team played. He's continued to select people who have underperformed consistently for the last number of years, playing a pretty similar game plan to what failed before under the previous coaching ticket.

There's a balance between incremental change, and tabula rasa. I think now is the time for a sharp break from the past.

Guinness RFC

I think we have to brace ourselves for several years of development. Sure we’ll compete but we’re 4 or 5 seasoned internationals away from beating France or England over the next few years. What I will be looking for is that we do the basics well and we show commitment.

I think Hendo and Ryan will carry the team over the next few years but I fear us getting beaten up and bullied. If we can get players on a weights and meat diet I will be happy. I’d be interested to see our pack KGs vs other international teams. I fear it will be significantly lower. While this alone won’t be the reason for failure it will be a substantial part of it as we have seen in recent years a Sarries and England.

People will say the better drilled teams won but I can’t get past the fact they dominated us so totally in certain aspects - scrum and defence. I’m not saying we can’t beat bigger teams with skill - we can but it will take total commitment to the cause. Players willing to get trampled and still making tackles. Lazer like concentration.

It will be an interesting few seasons ahead and I hope we’ve unearthed a few gems this time around.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Of course, but there's justifiably some skepticism. I mean Farrell was involved in Schmidt's coaching ticket for a long time, he had direct input into how the team played. He's continued to select people who have underperformed consistently for the last number of years, playing a pretty similar game plan to what failed before under the previous coaching ticket.

There's a balance between incremental change, and tabula rasa. I think now is the time for a sharp break from the past.

He's only had 3 games! Imo, that's far too premature to be saying he's continued to select anyone. Especially after the England performance I expect we'll see some change.

We also had a pretty distinct shift in gameplan in the Wales game.

ionadnapokot

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Of course, but there's justifiably some skepticism. I mean Farrell was involved in Schmidt's coaching ticket for a long time, he had direct input into how the team played. He's continued to select people who have underperformed consistently for the last number of years, playing a pretty similar game plan to what failed before under the previous coaching ticket.

There's a balance between incremental change, and tabula rasa. I think now is the time for a sharp break from the past.

tabula rasa is new one on me!!
I agree though! A sharp break is what i would go for.
I think its badly needed & would benefit Ireland in the medium to long term.
But then again i'm not on 100s of thousand a year trying to win every game!

All the real Irish rugby fans are more than willing to give Farrell a chance.
He is hindered by lack of depth and ageing players in key positions.

This is a genuine chance to make changes before 2021 6N.
No RWC ranking points
No fans means less pressure on the younger players
& no chance of winning the 6N!

I believe he should ring those changes v Italy and probably France.
He can still have a bench full of experience in Healy, PO'M, Murray, Sexton, Stockdale for Paris.

I do feel it will be very much same again v Ital and France but with the added ****kicker of a 6-2.

kingofthekong

Guinness RFC wrote: »

You’re assuming he’s not competing with Connors at 7 also? I think Butler offers more than Connors.

Sorry meant Connors aswell, disagree that Butler adds more

UAEguy2020

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Of course, but there's justifiably some skepticism. I mean Farrell was involved in Schmidt's coaching ticket for a long time, he had direct input into how the team played. He's continued to select people who have underperformed consistently for the last number of years, playing a pretty similar game plan to what failed before under the previous coaching ticket.

There's a balance between incremental change, and tabula rasa. I think now is the time for a sharp break from the past.

But that’s part of the problem, Schmidt dominated everything. The way it is now under Farrell there is going to be much more of an even balance between the coaches and players.

UAEguy2020

Guinness RFC wrote: »

I think we have to brace ourselves for several years of development. Sure we’ll compete but we’re 4 or 5 seasoned internationals away from beating France or England over the next few years. What I will be looking for is that we do the basics well and we show commitment.

I think Hendo and Ryan will carry the team over the next few years but I fear us getting beaten up and bullied. If we can get players on a weights and meat diet I will be happy. I’d be interested to see our pack KGs vs other international teams. I fear it will be significantly lower. While this alone won’t be the reason for failure it will be a substantial part of it as we have seen in recent years a Sarries and England.

People will say the better drilled teams won but I can’t get past the fact they dominated us so totally in certain aspects - scrum and defence. I’m not saying we can’t beat bigger teams with skill - we can but it will take total commitment to the cause. Players willing to get trampled and still making tackles. Lazer like concentration.

It will be an interesting few seasons ahead and I hope we’ve unearthed a few gems this time around.

There won’t be several years of development, this is just another knee jerk reaction to a bad World Cup like we had after the 2015 World Cup. Our pack man for man isn’t much smaller than the English pack yet it still gets mangled because we play dumb rugby when we play England.

Guinness RFC

kingofthekong wrote: »

Sorry meant Connors aswell, disagree that Butler adds more

He’s certainly better going forward. Connors is a defensive option and very good at tackling but offers little else. I would say Butler better over the ball as well. How many turnovers has he won since lockdown? Got to be 2/3 at least?

Guinness RFC

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There won’t be several years of development, this is just another knee jerk reaction to a bad World Cup like we had after the 2015 World Cup. Our pack man for man isn’t much smaller than the English pack yet it still gets mangled because we play dumb rugby when we play England.

I would compare the reason for our pack getting mangled as the comparison to McBryde being a back. The English although maybe not bigger weight wise have far superior conditioning strength and athleticism. Our forwards tend to be small unathletic and physically less mature. That’s what I was getting at re pack weights - while the weight mightn’t be a factor it’s still men vs boys physically.

That might be due to overplaying or overtraining but proof is in the pudding when we face them. Mcbride wasn’t that big stats wise but man was he physically mature and brutish. It comes down to genetics also. You can drill a team and they can win on commitment and skill but more often than not the team with size on their side wins.

DeHood123

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Just to add I’d have Butler in ahead of Conan who I don’t think has been playing well. Also would have liked to see Lyttle in ahead of Stockdale whose form is off as well.

You’ve just lost all credibility with that statement regarding Conan
He’s been in immense form in every game bar the first 40 maybe against Sarries...not taking away from J Butler who has been good but Conan is every bit deserving of at least a place in that 35 man squad, come on, take the Clan tinted glasses off

UAEguy2020

Guinness RFC wrote: »

I would compare the reason for our pack getting mangled as the comparison to McBryde being a back. The English although maybe not bigger weight wise have far superior conditioning strength and athleticism. Our forwards tend to be small unathletic and physically less mature. That’s what I was getting at re pack weights - while the weight mightn’t be a factor it’s still men vs boys physically.

That might be due to overplaying or overtraining but proof is in the pudding when we face them. Mcbride wasn’t that big stats wise but man was he physically mature and brutish. It comes down to genetics also. You can drill a team and they can win on commitment and skill but more often than not the team with size on their side wins.

Well we must be the only team that lacks athleticism and conditioning as you don’t see the Scots and Welsh get mangled to the same extent. That’s the biggest load of tosh I’ve heard so far, news flash, you run at a brick wall you will get put on your ass and that will happen at any level.

If that was the case was the exact same pack not suffering those same problems in 2017-2018 but all of a sudden in 2019 getting totally blown away?

Guinness RFC

DeHood123 wrote: »

You’ve just lost all credibility with that statement regarding Conan
He’s been in immense form in every game bar the first 40 maybe against Sarries...not taking away from J Butler who has been good but Conan is every bit deserving of at least a place in that 35 man squad, come on, take the Clan tinted glasses off

I think Conans form has been off a bit I don’t see how I lose credibility with that statement. He hasn’t been particularly bad but he hasn’t stood out in games. I would like to see what Butler has to offer and yes I would select him ahead of Conan.

Guinness RFC

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Well we must be the only team that lacks athleticism and conditioning as you don’t see the Scots and Welsh get mangled to the same extent. That’s the biggest load of tosh I’ve heard so far, news flash, you run at a brick wall you will get put on your ass and that will happen at any level.

If that was the case was the exact same pack not suffering those same problems in 2017-2018 but all of a sudden in 2019 getting totally blown away?

Some of it is mental as well. I don’t see our lads getting up for games against England. A lot of it is tactical as well - take route one balls up all day against Farrell and Vunipola/Itoje you’re going to get dumped on your arse all day long. We don’t have enough carriers and rely on CJ to do it all day. That lacks variation and is predictable.

The Scots and the Welsh are a different kettle of fish the Welsh have a much bigger pack than us as arguably the Scots do also. Maybe not weight wise but in terms of athleticism and maturity they are possibly better than us. If you run up against a brick wall you’re right you will come off second best. If you come up against a more physically mature and athletic brick wall this will happen twice over like we’ve seen happen.

I’m not saying it’s the only factor but size is definitely a factor. How would an under 20 grand slam winning side do against England international side? They’d be trampled on. Technique is not everything.

Guinness RFC

And to add to that I do concede size is not everything but look at McBryde 6’4 but he looks so much bigger because he is filled out in the right areas. Toner on the other hand is probably heavier than Kruis but Kruis probably is more filled out in the right areas. Hence the perception they are bigger than they actually are.

UAEguy2020

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Some of it is mental as well. I don’t see our lads getting up for games against England. A lot of it is tactical as well - take route one balls up all day against Farrell and Vunipola/Itoje you’re going to get dumped on your arse all day long. We don’t have enough carriers and rely on CJ to do it all day. That lacks variation and is predictable.

The Scots and the Welsh are a different kettle of fish the Welsh have a much bigger pack than us as arguably the Scots do also. Maybe not weight wise but in terms of athleticism and maturity they are possibly better than us. If you run up against a brick wall you’re right you will come off second best. If you come up against a more physically mature and athletic brick wall this will happen twice over like we’ve seen happen.

I’m not saying it’s the only factor but size is definitely a factor. How would an under 20 grand slam winning side do against England international side? They’d be trampled on. Technique is not everything.

We have had massive issues against England but not in ways people highlight. A big factor has been our positional sense in defense, 4 of England’s 7 tries have come directly from us being a bomb scare at the back, I think that instantly puts us on the back foot. When they wasn’t an issue in 2017/2018 we seemed to have no issue with England’s physicality and if anything out muscled a lot of the time.

Ryan can carry, Henderson can carry, Porter can carry, Doris if he plays can carry we definitely don’t struggle for ball carriers.

Well we tend to outmuscle the Welsh when we play them more often than not so that should confirm the size of the pack has little to do with us getting outmuscled. The Scots definetly dont either ( can’t believe I even have to debate this) when we play these teams we tend to outmuscle them (Scotland in 2020 have us a good match upfront through I must say)

Like I said the Irish players had no problem dominating all these teams physically in 2017-2018 and their size and athleticism didn’t go out the window in 2019 so clearly something else is the issue.

The Irish u20s the last 2 years played 4 games against England and despite the England pack being bigger on both occasions (the gap arguably bigger than the gap between the Irish and English senior teams) you would barely have noticed as we used our brain and it showed.

Guinness RFC

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We have had massive issues against England but not in ways people highlight. A big factor has been our positional sense in defense, 4 of England’s 7 tries have come directly from us being a bomb scare at the back, I think that instantly puts us on the back foot. When they wasn’t an issue in 2017/2018 we seemed to have no issue with England’s physicality and if anything out muscled a lot of the time.

Ryan can carry, Henderson can carry, Porter can carry, Doris if he plays can carry we definitely don’t struggle for ball carriers.

Well we tend to outmuscle the Welsh when we play them more often than not so that should confirm the size of the pack has little to do with us getting outmuscled. The Scots definetly dont either ( can’t believe I even have to debate this) when we play these teams we tend to outmuscle them (Scotland in 2020 have us a good match upfront through I must say)

Like I said the Irish players had no problem dominating all these teams physically in 2017-2018 and their size and athleticism didn’t go out the window in 2019 so clearly something else is the issue.

The Irish u20s the last 2 years played 4 games against England and despite the England pack being bigger on both occasions (the gap arguably bigger than the gap between the Irish and English senior teams) you would barely have noticed as we used our brain and it showed.

I suppose I’m getting into semantics and have contradicted myself somewhat. Size can be a perception thing. A player who is filled out looks bigger physically than Toner but may not be as big height and weight wise. I suppose when we refer to size it can be a subjective thing also. Kruis looks bigger than Toner but may not actually be.

kingofthekong

Honestly not sure which pack I like the most, all offer different things, would be very interested to see how they do it, front row picks itself back 5 is a toss up:

4. Ryan
5. Roux
6. Doris
7. Stander
8. Conan

---

4.Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Stander
8. Doris

---

4.Ryan
5. Baird
6.Doris
7. VDF
8. Stander

---

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Doris
7. Stander
8. Conan

---

4. Ryan
5. Baird
6. Doris
7. Connors
8.Stander


Theres so many ways they could play it, no idea what combination I would pick

I think Ryan, Doris and Stander are probably nailed on, everyone else is anyones guess what will be the starting pack to play France

PTH2009

I was laughed at asking will there be 2 squad announcements and it looks like it is the way now

Will Lowe come in for the Autumn cup

Buer

PTH2009 wrote: »

I was laughed at asking will there be 2 squad announcements and it looks like it is the way now

Will Lowe come in for the Autumn cup

Who on earth laughed? There was always going to be two announcements. Christ, we have a second squad announcement in the middle of a normal 6N. This is 6 games across two tournaments including a game against a second tier nation.

I'd say we might see a couple of the older heads given the flick for the next squad of others return from injury.

salmocab

PTH2009 wrote: »

I was laughed at asking will there be 2 squad announcements and it looks like it is the way now

Will Lowe come in for the Autumn cup

Think Lowe and a couple more join up on Monday, it was in the announcement.

Richie_Rich89

kingofthekong wrote: »

Honestly not sure which pack I like the most, all offer different things, would be very interested to see how they do it, front row picks itself back 5 is a toss up:

4. Ryan
5. Roux
6. Doris
7. Stander
8. Conan

---

4.Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Stander
8. Doris

---

4.Ryan
5. Baird
6.Doris
7. VDF
8. Stander

---

4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6. Doris
7. Stander
8. Conan

---

4. Ryan
5. Baird
6. Doris
7. Connors
8.Stander


Theres so many ways they could play it, no idea what combination I would pick

I think Ryan, Doris and Stander are probably nailed on, everyone else is anyones guess what will be the starting pack to play France

Only an idiot would start Stander at openside.

opensides better than C.J. Stander:
Connors, van der Flier, Reidy, O'Mahony, Butler, Hodnett, Oliver, Jor. Murphy, Penny, Boyle, the Sean O'Brien in the Leinster academy, Timoney, Cloete, O'Donnell, Jack Daly, probably Martin Moloney and even Tadhg Beirne

Serbian

PTH2009 wrote: »

Will Lowe come in for the Autumn cup

Not sure precisely when Lowe qualifies but he didn’t make his Leinster debut until the 2nd December 2017, so he might not qualify until after the Georgia game. Maybe he’ll come in for the “final” or whatever comes after our group match

The Lost Sheep

Serbian wrote: »

Not sure precisely when Lowe qualifies but he didn’t make his Leinster debut until the 2nd December 2017, so he might not qualify until after the Georgia game. Maybe he’ll come in for the “final” or whatever comes after our group match

He arrived in the middle of November so eligible for england.