Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Exclamation Marc

Can people please stop using the phrase 'Joeball' ?

It's an abomination of a phrase and doesn't actually mean anything as its far too reductive of a number of different strategies and approaches.

It's also embarrassingly cringeworthy.

awec

Well, Ryan is a freak, and I don't think he should be the yardstick for throwing players in. It certainly will not be normal for players to make Ireland debuts before they play a chunk of senior rugby for their province. I am not talking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater and picking guys who are barely a wet week into their careers. I don't think widespread changes in players are required.

I am saying that when you're making the tough calls in certain positions, give the younger, in form guys a chance. Experience shouldn't always trump form. I know it's a cliche that it's harder to lose your jersey than gain it, but sometimes that seems to be the case. There are some players who are a bit too comfortable IMO. When the game is in progress, use the bench to change it up. Take Murray and Sexton off earlier.

But changing personnel is only half the battle. No point bringing in new players to do the same thing again. Our tactics must change. We have to learn to offload the ball when it's appropriate, and not always die with it. We need to stop reverting to one out runners the second we enter the opposition 22. We have to get better at our plays during advantage, all too often we just immediately go for the garryowen or crossfield kick rather than spend a few phases having a free go at it.

A few players need given a tough message, even if they don't lose their spot. Stockdale must be told to improve or else be dropped. Henderson needs to add consistency to his game. Henshaw needs to be de-boshified, he's running around like a poor mans Jamie Roberts at the moment. I'd like to see Larmour used in the attack more. The pack need to come onto the ball at speed, and not this stationary bollocks we're subjected to at the moment. Sexton and Murray need to find some form or find the bench.

Right now it seems we pick our team, then try find a game plan that suits the players we pick. It should be the other way around. Figure out how to beat a team, then pick the best team to do it, even if it means moving some senior players around or dropping them entirely. The All Blacks moved Barrett to 15, that's the sort of move that would never, ever be countenanced by Ireland.

There are improvements that can be made. Farrell has a huge job on his hands.

ClanofLams

bilston wrote: »

I'm certainly not saying don't discuss it. Discuss away which is what I'm doing.

My concern is more that he won't get the same latitude that another coach might get. So if we do end up with 2 or 3 wins in the 6Ns will some fans start calling for his head? Or will they give him time that they would give to someone else?

I think it will depend on the context of the losses. If there appears to be a shift in style and some new players are being tried out then he will likely be given the benefit of doubt by most reasonable people.

If there appears to be no change in game plan then that benefit is less likely to be given.

I suppose one could also argue that given his lack of head coaching record, he hasn’t earned the same benefit that might be given to someone with a successful track record. But I wouldn’t go along with that, rightly or wrongly, he has the job now.

Niallof9

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Can people please stop using the phrase 'Joeball' ?

It's an abomination of a phrase and doesn't actually mean anything as its far too reductive of a number of different strategies and approaches.

It's also embarrassingly cringeworthy.

Ok so multi phase rugby, high ruck creation, high static carrying game, limited offloading or footwork so you don't isolate from the rucker who needs to know what the picture is. We use tip ons a bit and box kick a bit. We tend to pass out of our 22 and we really go to town on the one out runners and pick and jams in the opposition red zone. We only really play on the advantage and we control possession so well that many opposition teams rack up record numbers like charteris, guirado , gray. When u don't compete in rucks like we saw on Sat, Ireland overcommit men often having five in a ruck. But we do it well particularly at home on a cold november evening we force the opposition into errors and penalties. From the maul we can score. We also tend to use one or two power plays a season, which gets turfed out as evidence that Joe has secret moves, even though he does not. Its a very controlled, dispassionate system that relies on huge workrate and self flagellation.

It means players like Stander, who can run in tries from outside 22's end up get minced for a few metres and do it over 15 times a game. He doesn't do it to open up space for our backs like Vunipola, he does it so we control the ball and set up another pick and drive. So he end's up knackered. The all blacks, like most New Zealand rugby teams, tend to reject this route preferring at times to avoid ruck through offloads. The supporting runner instead of looking to the ruck knows the player will offload. They do this in training through drills that are easily seen video or photos. Its the same drills clubs up and down the county in Ireland do. Yet like Mike Ross wrote, and can be seen in any warm up in the Aviva Joe is so controlling you have to follow an actual play sheet of four pages till u change it. And if u change it and **** up you are in serious trouble as Joe can be a very scary and angry man.

Is that better? Its far easier using the term

whats cringeworthy is your relentless defence of it.

Look maybe we would be Scotland if it wasn't for the above. Maybe we can't do running rugby. Or maybe Joe completely underestimates us Irish.

I think its the latter. Look at Japan under Joseph. He'd have us play the exact same way. We got the one Kiwi who hates that way, and its mind boggling.

Shefwedfan

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Can people please stop using the phrase 'Joeball' ?

It's an abomination of a phrase and doesn't actually mean anything as its far too reductive of a number of different strategies and approaches.

It's also embarrassingly cringeworthy.

It's an idiotic phrase but a sign of the times to be honest....

Niallof9

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's an idiotic phrase but a sign of the times to be honest....

what times is that?

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

I'm tired of hearing about this 6N vs WC thing as if it's a choice between one or the other.

Wales are in their third semi final. They compete in the 6N, won a grand slam this year and all.

Their clubs are a fcuking joke and yet they consistently show up better than us on the biggest stage.

And they've done it while refreshing their team and *gasp* picking guys who are playing well rather than just guys with experience. I wonder how many of their players would just be dismissed in Ireland as sub-international level.

Interested Observer

bilston wrote: »

I'm certainly not saying don't discuss it. Discuss away which is what I'm doing.

My concern is more that he won't get the same latitude that another coach might get. So if we do end up with 2 or 3 wins in the 6Ns will some fans start calling for his head? Or will they give him time that they would give to someone else?

Depends on the manner of the 2 or 3 wins (which also means 2 or 3 losses). If he picks the same XV that kept losing this year, and they keep on losing next year, then what is the point of him exactly? However if we see development in how we play, in developing the squad then of course he should be given time.

Exclamation Marc

Niallof9 wrote: »

whats cringeworthy is your relentless defence of it.

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. I never once defended his style of play so you're talking utter shïte.

I criticised the use of a stupid phrase that actually means nothing.

Your paranoia and relentless criticism of anything and everything is tiring at this point.

Niallof9

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. I never once defended his style of play so you're talking utter shïte.

I criticised the use of a stupid phrase that actually means nothing.

Your paranoia and relentless criticism of anything and everything is tiring at this point.

sure what can you say to this ad hominem attack

you've constantly called out the critics, or me at least without real backing up of your attacks. you seem to be defending the results going by your replies and personal attacks etc. results which came about due to tactics, selections.

according to you the players "don't have the ability to stick to it" is that right?

utter guff and self defeating nonsense.

stick with me on this....Joe selected Kearney over Larmour, Earls over Conway and continued the tactics that failed in the Six Nations to the loss in Japan which resulted in the New Zealand game and then result. you'd swear we live in a parallel universe where this isn't being pointed out on paper, in babbling brook, reddit, munsterfans etc. some of you guys are living in the twilight zone here.

Boards has always been a bit like this. A giant circle jerk praising and defending constant failings. I'm sure back in the day Eddie was similarly defended. Declan certainly was.

if i'm negative people like you are overly positive. I know for a fact people in the Irish set up are gutted and at a loss. I spoke to one today!

look i'll let it go

Joe is a hero as are the players. He left Irish rugby for the better. We will hopefully have huge talent coming through and Farrell might do well or he may not. The end

Exclamation Marc

Cool story. I'd reply but you keep changing your post every two minutes so I'm not arsed. Glad you're letting it go.

Exclamation Marc

Looking to the future and paired with Andy Farrell starting, I'm very interested to see what John Fogarty can do replacing Feek as scrum coach. He's a huge loss to Leinster but a great boon to Ireland.

I hope they both get time to put their stamp on the team but they've a big job to do.

lord quackinton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

:P:P:P:P:P:P:P



Makes sense to who?



One of the huge strengths of the Ireland setup is that the IRFU control the players. NZ have a similar setup and the likes of Scotland/Wales etc are all trying to do the same

Even France are putting in more rules to try and take control of the players. The England RU are paying a fortune to clubs for the players to try and control them.....


The rugby World is jealous of the Ireland setup and your best idea is to break it up???? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It is more economical for Wales and England and Scotland to pay the clubs then run the clubs themselves.
Wales and England rfu do not want to take control of the clubs

The irfu is running 4 provinces financially
It is costing millions per annum
What is becoming obvious is that The current set up suits the provinces and hinders Ireland.

The Lost Sheep

lord quackinton wrote: »

It is more economical for Wales and England and Scotland to pay the clubs then run the clubs themselves.
Wales and England rfu do not want to take control of the clubs

The irfu is running 4 provinces financially
It is costing millions per annum
What is becoming obvious is that The current set up suits the provinces and hinders Ireland.

is it? Welsh only really have current set up because of debts they had built up otherwise the union would have same control over sides as here

The current system doesnt hinder Ireland or at least changing it towards private ownership wont lead to better results for Irish team

sydthebeat

lord quackinton wrote: »

It is more economical for Wales and England and Scotland to pay the clubs then run the clubs themselves.
Wales and England rfu do not want to take control of the clubs

The irfu is running 4 provinces financially
It is costing millions per annum
What is becoming obvious is that The current set up suits the provinces and hinders Ireland.

The Welsh RFU and English RFU cannot afford to run the clubs... They would absolutely love to be in the position that IRFU are in.

Burkie1203

Niallof9 wrote: »

Obviously if it was one, then 2 and so in the six nations etc its an issue. But we had a **** six nations this year!? Are they suddenly bankrupt? Did Leinster not just build a new sub academy gym?

Yes they did. The money came from a benefactor and the clue is in the name, the "Ken Wall centre"

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Joe Schmidt had total control and power. Nucifora gave him everything he wanted - players moved around provinces, brought back from the UK/France, rules (all be they unwritten) bent for Sexton

The rule came in a year after Sexton left to try and deter it from becoming the norm. Nucifora came here in July 2014. Sexton left 12 months earlier.

JRant

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ok so multi phase rugby, high ruck creation, high static carrying game, limited offloading or footwork so you don't isolate from the rucker who needs to know what the picture is. We use tip ons a bit and box kick a bit. We tend to pass out of our 22 and we really go to town on the one out runners and pick and jams in the opposition red zone. We only really play on the advantage and we control possession so well that many opposition teams rack up record numbers like charteris, guirado , gray. When u don't compete in rucks like we saw on Sat, Ireland overcommit men often having five in a ruck. But we do it well particularly at home on a cold november evening we force the opposition into errors and penalties. From the maul we can score. We also tend to use one or two power plays a season, which gets turfed out as evidence that Joe has secret moves, even though he does not. Its a very controlled, dispassionate system that relies on huge workrate and self flagellation.

It means players like Stander, who can run in tries from outside 22's end up get minced for a few metres and do it over 15 times a game. He doesn't do it to open up space for our backs like Vunipola, he does it so we control the ball and set up another pick and drive. So he end's up knackered. The all blacks, like most New Zealand rugby teams, tend to reject this route preferring at times to avoid ruck through offloads. The supporting runner instead of looking to the ruck knows the player will offload. They do this in training through drills that are easily seen video or photos. Its the same drills clubs up and down the county in Ireland do. Yet like Mike Ross wrote, and can be seen in any warm up in the Aviva Joe is so controlling you have to follow an actual play sheet of four pages till u change it. And if u change it and **** up you are in serious trouble as Joe can be a very scary and angry man.

Is that better? Its far easier using the term

whats cringeworthy is your relentless defence of it.

Look maybe we would be Scotland if it wasn't for the above. Maybe we can't do running rugby. Or maybe Joe completely underestimates us Irish.

I think its the latter. Look at Japan under Joseph. He'd have us play the exact same way. We got the one Kiwi who hates that way, and its mind boggling.

But Schmidt did a lot of the things you're asking for, especially at Leinster.
He picked teams to beat the opposition, regularly changing the lineups.
The players were often on the shoulder looking for the offload or pop pass off the ground.
They played great attacking rugby.

So what happened this past 12 months?

To me it comes down to straight forward staleness. The gameplan was stale, the players were stale and the results followed. I also feel, like many others, that he just didn't get enough young blood into the team to freshen things up. It's very hard to keep a team motivated, especially when certain members of the team are playing like a drain and still getting picked.

I've loved everything he's done for club and country but this past 12 months have been an unmitigated disaster for him.

lord quackinton

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

Annabella1

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

Burkie1203

lord quackinton wrote: »

Then remove aid and the foreign based players

What difference will removing the foreign based player policy make realistically

WoollyRedHat

bilston wrote: »

But he hasn't started his role yet, so why pay him off before he starts?

Because he signed the contract presumably. Someone was talking about shipping him out and going for someone better, but you can't do that without renumeration plus the optics would be awful and what's the point, should be given a chance.

Shefwedfan

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

So let’s player work hard for 4 years, then when it comes to pinnacle of their career tell them to feck off because you want to bring in a lad who left for money a few years back

The a sure fire way to kill the team spirit

Burkie1203

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

If guys felt they can go away and still make a RWC squad then it harms the provinces because they lose players

Shefwedfan

lord quackinton wrote: »

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

None of that made sense

sydthebeat

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

Theres a real contemporary example of this.


Argentina did this, this year, after picking only jaguares players for the last three years

And now they have players like Diaz bonilla wanting out as pumas picked sanchez and urdepilleta (two foreign based players). ahead of him.

So that's a real example of how your suggestion would hurt our provinces

lord quackinton

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

sydthebeat

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

So Irish provinces become nursery clubs for bigger European clubs.... Great plan!

Burkie1203

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

Players are moving around the provinces (Cooney McGrath Johnston Jordi Carbery McCarthy for example)


Shipping players out of the country won't solve anything.

Shefwedfan

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

Young Irish player, moves to France....played every week and in 3 seasons breaks down with serious injuries....player retires

Yeah excellent idea....

Niallof9

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Yes they did. The money came from a benefactor and the clue is in the name, the "Ken Wall centre"







The rule came in a year after Sexton left to try and deter it from becoming the norm. Nucifora came here in July 2014. Sexton left 12 months earlier.

It was funded by the irfu and dept of sport as well as the wall family