Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Bazzo

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

I am talking about the coach’s, not the fans. Both Cooney and Marmion for whatever reason don’t seem to be a favourite of the coach’s. When they have a chance they drop them for whatever reason

Well not really, you said that the coaches know what they're doing therefore "that suggests" Marmion and Cooney aren't good enough for international rugby. In Marmion's case there is very compelling stone cold evidence that he's "good enough" for international rugby. Schmidt also went through a fair patch of putting a lot of trust in him around the same time when he filled in on the wing a couple of times and did very well defensively.

WhoamI2022

Bazzo wrote: »

Well not really, you said that the coaches know what they're doing therefore "that suggests" Marmion and Cooney aren't good enough for international rugby. In Marmion's case there is very compelling stone cold evidence that he's "good enough" for international rugby. Schmidt also went through a fair patch of putting a lot of trust in him around the same time when he filled in on the wing a couple of times and did very well defensively.

If they are good enough then why are they dropped?


Schmidt played Marmion on the wing because he had no other option, hardly a glowing recommendation. During that period when did Marmoin start instead of Murray in any international? when Murray was fit

Bazzo

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

If they are good enough then why are they dropped?


Schmidt played Marmion on the wing because he had no other option, hardly a glowing recommendation. During that period when did Marmoin start instead of Murray in any international? when Murray was fit

Ok so "not starting ahead of Murray" is the same as "not good enough for international rugby" now, is it?

Schmidt actually did literally give a glowing review of Marmion in one of the post match press conferences if you care to watch it back.

He was dropped... And now he's back in the squad, the coach just thinks JGP is a better bench option at the moment, which is fine. But statements that he's "not good enough" for international rugby are nonsense. We know he is, we have irrefutable proof.

And the conversation is going round in circles so I'll leave it at that, there's only so many ways you can phrase the same thing.

WhoamI2022

Bazzo wrote: »

Ok so "not starting ahead of Murray" is the same as "not good enough for international rugby" now, is it?

Schmidt actually did literally give a glowing review of Marmion in one of the post match press conferences if you care to watch it back.

He was dropped... And now he's back in the squad, the coach just thinks JGP is a better bench option at the moment, which is fine. But statements that he's "not good enough" for international rugby are nonsense. We know he is, we have irrefutable proof.

And the conversation is going round in circles so I'll leave it at that, there's only so many ways you can phrase the same thing.

^^
Let me refer to my original post "This would suggest Cooney and Marmion are just not good enough for international rugby"


I didn't say they are not good enough. But I guess you missed that part? Anyway you seem like someone who won't be happy till I say you are right, so you are right. Happy?

Skeetur

JGP didn't get much attention after the game given how well the starting debutants played. But he was impressively sharp and worked hard.

He was hitting the breakdown to protect the ball when players were isolated, joining the maul for the try, increased the speed attack twofold, getting the ball wide fast without playing overly risky stuff. I know it was 10 mins against a defeated Italy but for a first international cap he was good.

For a bench option at the moment he's the better option tbh and given Marmion, Cooney, JGP are all close enough age wise and Murray likely not budging from starter I wouldn't be surprised to see him quickly get established as the clear second choice SH going forward.

salmocab

Buer wrote: »

Ah. I see Ouncer is back!

Indeed it’s great news

WhoamI2022

Skeetur wrote: »

JGP didn't get much attention after the game given how well the starting debutants played. But he was impressively sharp and worked hard.

He was hitting the breakdown to protect the ball when players were isolated, joining the maul for the try, increased the speed attack twofold, getting the ball wide fast without playing overly risky stuff. I know it was 10 mins against a defeated Italy but for a first international cap he was good.

For a bench option at the moment he's the better option tbh and given Marmion, Cooney, JGP are all close enough age wise and Murray likely not budging from starter I wouldn't be surprised to see him quickly get established as the clear second choice SH going forward.

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.



Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

kingofthekong

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.



Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

JGP is far better than just a place holder for Casey, Casey will have his work cut out for him getting ahead og JGP , he plays with a flow, speed and calmness that none of our other scrumhalfs have he has a great ability to keep the attack flowing and maintain momentum whereas Mcgrath is very stop start and hinders the momentum of our forward pack with his style

Paul Smeenus

I think we should call up Paul Marshall.

Has to be better than listening to him "interview" people.

mfceiling

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

JGP is very snappy and decent option off the bench but really is holding a space warm for Casey etc I would suggest.



Question is does Murray see himsefl playing in next World Cup at 34/35? do the Irish management see him still playing?

This is the same Casey that has only played a handful of meaningful games for Munster and you want him straight into the Ireland squad?
That makes perfect sense.

D15er

Casey has six starts in the Pro14. Come on lads.

WhoamI2022

mfceiling wrote: »

This is the same Casey that has only played a handful of meaningful games for Munster and you want him straight into the Ireland squad?
That makes perfect sense.

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

WhoamI2022

I’m sure if I check posts after the World I can bet a lot of the people on here posted about problem with ireland was not bringing in new players, players been kept in squad based on name etc etc

Now any suggestion of promoting a player and its “oh he is too young”

The best experience Casey will get is playing a game with Sexton, not in the 6 nations, but in the next few weeks he should be given a shot, same as our options at 10 given a shot with Murray at 9

OldRio

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

Casey has played for France?

Downlinz

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

He was the starting 9 of the Pro 12 champions and had won Man of the match awards in the heineken cup. He was doing a bit more than playing a few middling league sides without their internationals.
He also moved ahead of Stringer and TOL at provincial level so it made his elevation to the international setup quite simple considering the other 2 were in the previous Six Nations squad.

I like Casey but him getting gametime with Munster is the best thing for his development right now.

thomond2006

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Yes because it was a disaster when France done it

How many times had Murray played for Munster prior to get the call up to Ireland?

Antoine Dupont had played a lot prior to his first cap with France. It was his third season in the Top 14.

http://www.itsrugby.fr/joueurs/antoine-dupont-32472.html

Murray was fast-tracked because of TOL's freak injury on the sled and his loss of form. Plus it took Murray a while to really get going. I can remember various games in 2012 where his speed at the ruck was criticised. 2013 with the Lions was when he really blossomed.

Casey will be making his fourth straight start for Munster tomorrow. He's developing just fine.

WhoamI2022

thomond2006 wrote: »

Antoine Dupont had played a lot prior to his first cap with France. It was his third season in the Top 14.

http://www.itsrugby.fr/joueurs/antoine-dupont-32472.html

Murray was fast-tracked because of TOL's freak injury on the sled and his loss of form. Plus it took Murray a while to really get going. I can remember various games in 2012 where his speed at the ruck was criticised. 2013 with the Lions was when he really blossomed.

Casey will be making his fourth straight start for Munster tomorrow. He's developing just fine.

I haven't said to replace Murray yet with Casey, but based on the other options he looks the most likely. Him and the ulster lad who I can never remember his name.



Murray is not playing terrible, he is just not up to the 2018 standard but as I posted above if the management think Murray is not going to make the next WC then they should try get Casey some time in the lesser games with Sexton at 10, JGP came on massively after he got a run of games with Sexton.

thomond2006

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

I haven't said to replace Murray yet with Casey, but based on the other options he looks the most likely. Him and the ulster lad who I can never remember his name.



Murray is not playing terrible, he is just not up to the 2018 standard but as I posted above if the management think Murray is not going to make the next WC then they should try get Casey some time in the lesser games with Sexton at 10, JGP came on massively after he got a run of games with Sexton.

Casey might get a token appearance against Georgia but that might be the height of it with Ireland this season. If he can start 15 or so games for Munster I think he's going well.

It's a shame there will likely be no summer tour. That would have been a perfect low pressure environment to get Casey meaningful minutes.

WhoamI2022

thomond2006 wrote: »

Casey might get a token appearance against Georgia but that might be the height of it with Ireland this season. If he can start 15 or so games for Munster I think he's going well.

It's a shame there will likely be no summer tour. That would have been a perfect low pressure environment to get Casey meaningful minutes.

The AI tournament is what I would call the perfect tournament. If Ireland had to stay in World Ranking for World Cup you would say something is on the line but it isn't. I would hope we bring a lot of players who will be playing in 2023 into the team in next few weeks. If we lose every game but show a huge number of new players I would be happy......

I think it will all depend on today, Ireland win the 6 nations and the management team could do that. Lose and people will be calling for them to get sacked. It's a pity the trigger happy Irish fans

siltirocker

Dog Botherer wrote: »

what if Marmion was just crap in training.

Precisely. There is so much more to it than x is better than y.

A friend of mine was contracted to one of the provinces last year and shared with a few of us some of the stuff he was hearing in the lead up to Ireland going to the world cup, and other type of scenarios. I obviously won't share details cause that'd be ****ty. But the sheer amount of things that come into play are massive.

Two lads were sent away by Schmidt to work on particular parts of their game, styles not necessarily promoted in their province but something they needed for him. "You play game xyz at your province and do it well, but for Ireland we play abc. We are coordinating with your provincial coaching ticket to incorporate it more. Let's see how we do with that." One talked, not necessarily positively, about it in the media, and got a bollocking, never called up again. The other just simply didn't adapt or prove him self as competent at style abc.

One lad was essentially a dick in camp, and senior players and coaches didn't like him.

One lad had a crazy virus he was trying to play through, but couldn't hid it.

Another was absolutely mercurial, but was going off script far too often. He argued that it more often than not yielded positive results. It was explained to him that "if he stuck to the script there would be no need in the first place for mercurial gung ho stuff", but he didn't stop doing it.

One lad simple couldn't open up to the crew beyond his limited provincial colleagues, this effected his confidence and he was muck in camp.

Some players who may not seem near first choice were getting called up because they understood instruction and gameplan straight away.

Some players opened up other players better than perceived better or more in form players.

Then of course you have obvious ones like they didn't train well, or they had a provincial or experienced understanding of the players outside them.

Dog Botherer

my granny’s hairdresser said that he heard from his cousin’s wife that joe schmidt thought that devin toner was too tall and dropped him

siltirocker

Dog Botherer wrote: »

my granny’s hairdresser said that he heard from his cousin’s wife that joe schmidt thought that devin toner was too tall and dropped him

But ya, take what you want from it. Just trying to share a bit of insight. Hardly anything explicit or controversial there.

Fair enough. But I don't think your granny's hairdresser's cousin's wife played for a province though. (Coincidentally, my cousin is actually married to a player in the 23 today. But he doesn't share ****, or even talk rugby outside of it).

Dog Botherer

siltirocker wrote: »

But ya, take what you want from it. Just trying to share a bit of insight. Hardly anything explicit or controversial there.

Fair enough. But I don't think your granny's hairdresser's cousin's wife played for a province though. (Coincidentally, my cousin is actually married to a player in the 23 today. But he doesn't share ****, or even talk rugby outside of it).

yeah in fairness i have a second cousin in today’s 23 too, never met him or spoke to him.

siltirocker

Dog Botherer wrote: »

yeah in fairness i have a second cousin in today’s 23 too, never met him or spoke to him.

Oh I'd be an absolute pest in that scenario. My uncle, through marriage, was on a provincial coaching ticket and a former Irish u-20s head coach. I had his head melted. He was pretty open, but as he got more ingrained it became a zilch point with him.

I played with a lad who is in the 23 today and when he started being involved in the provincial set up, he was excited and told us hapes of tales when he was back in the club. But if I bumped into him now, you'd never hear a peep. WHich is fair enough.

Richie_Rich89

siltirocker wrote: »

Precisely. There is so much more to it than x is better than y.

A friend of mine was contracted to one of the provinces last year and shared with a few of us some of the stuff he was hearing in the lead up to Ireland going to the world cup, and other type of scenarios. I obviously won't share details cause that'd be ****ty. But the sheer amount of things that come into play are massive.

Two lads were sent away by Schmidt to work on particular parts of their game, styles not necessarily promoted in their province but something they needed for him. "You play game xyz at your province and do it well, but for Ireland we play abc. We are coordinating with your provincial coaching ticket to incorporate it more. Let's see how we do with that." One talked, not necessarily positively, about it in the media, and got a bollocking, never called up again. The other just simply didn't adapt or prove him self as competent at style abc.

One lad was essentially a dick in camp, and senior players and coaches didn't like him.

One lad had a crazy virus he was trying to play through, but couldn't hid it.

Another was absolutely mercurial, but was going off script far too often. He argued that it more often than not yielded positive results. It was explained to him that "if he stuck to the script there would be no need in the first place for mercurial gung ho stuff", but he didn't stop doing it.

One lad simple couldn't open up to the crew beyond his limited provincial colleagues, this effected his confidence and he was muck in camp.

Some players who may not seem near first choice were getting called up because they understood instruction and gameplan straight away.

Some players opened up other players better than perceived better or more in form players.

Then of course you have obvious ones like they didn't train well, or they had a provincial or experienced understanding of the players outside them.

The one who talked to the media and got dropped: O'Halloran?

Virus: Roux

mercurial, off script: Cooney

I'd have to think about the others

realhorrorshow

My main takeaway from knowing lads that play professionally is that many of them don't watch or have much interest in rugby.

Clegg

realhorrorshow wrote: »

My main takeaway from knowing lads that play professionally is that many of them don't watch or have much interest in rugby.

Heaslip in particular had little interest in rugby outside of playing it.

siltirocker

realhorrorshow wrote: »

My main takeaway from knowing lads that play professionally is that many of them don't watch or have much interest in rugby.

My main takeaway is essentially the same. Not that they don't have interest, just with any job, you put your entire mental capacity into it for so much of a week, add in the physical side these lads also had to put in, that they just were so, almost fed up, that they almost go out of their way to divorce themselves for it when they can.

Like the uncle i mentioned. I thought he enjoyed talking about it, but it was, in hindsight, clear he was simply being polite and entertaining me. It was probably the last thing he wanted to talk about, and as an amateur player who was always out of reach of this, but surrounded by people who were involved I am sure I pushed it, to seem knowledgeable, important, or to cling on to their radial professionalism.

salmocab

A friends dad befriended Greg Feek and he knew nothing about rugby and had no interest and we reckoned it was because of this that Feek liked him as he would not have mentioned work or even know the score of the last match.