Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

We're lacking a bit of heft in the pack. Beirne to 6, Roux or Kleyn in as TH lock to provide some heavy carrying. Cronin on the bench at 2.

We really do not need handling errors leading to soft tries, so, Daly to 15, Keenan to the wing. VDF in at 7.

And drop Doris....for Kleyn or Roux.....are you having a laugh, our pack matched up very well against one of the biggest packs in the world bar two lineouts i think our pack was superior.

molloyjh

A few points to put our 6Ns into perspective.

Ireland were joint top try scorers on 17 - level with France.

Ireland were second highest point scorers behind France.

Ireland and France were the only 2 sides to get 2 TBPs.

Ireland scored more points against Italy than anyone else.

With 40 mins left in the Championship we were still in the hunt to win it, with everyone else other than England out of the running.

Anyone who can't find positives in this year so far isn't being objective. There are positives. And a good spell together over October and November will help to cement the new style we're looking to play. I have concerns about the talent available to us in the short to medium term, but let's see how that goes over the next year or so.

Enquiring

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I guess playing NZL in a QF and a 14 man France team is pretty comparable...

We lost to Japan! Have you all wiped this from your memory?

shootermacg

kingofthekong wrote: »

And drop Doris....for Kleyn or Roux.....are you having a laugh, our pack matched up very well against one of the biggest packs in the world bar two lineouts i think our pack was superior.

No you're dropping Doris for Beirne.

irishbucsfan

Enquiring wrote: »

There are a number of myths used to try to defend Ireland's embarrassing rugby world cup record and ro try to say we do well for an island our size.

Myth 1 - We are a small island and we don't have the population to compete.

That's easily squashed, we have a bigger population that Scotland, Wales, New Zealand so that excuse just doesn't wash. When that is pointed out, myth 2 comes along.

Myth 2 - Population doesn't matter because we have so few players as we have other sports.

The registered players from any source tells us that this is nonsense, we have more than many countries.

We'll have to face up to facts and bust myth 3.

Myth 3 - We're punching above our weight.

To not have made a semi final in a 10 team competition is embarrassing. Looking at the playing numbers, the resources etc. we're punching below our weight.

You tried to prove this playing number stuff with nonsense numbers and you’ve made a fool of yourself there so now you’re resorting to a bunch of straw men arguments.

The truth is we do ok for our size. We don’t necessarily punch massively above our weight. We underperform in the World Cup, we arguably overperformed in the 6 nations the last decade or so. In the 2010s we were ahead of where we were in the 2000s, in the 2000s we were ahead of where we were in the 1990s. So things are going fine and there’s potential there for us to win more in the next decade. Anyone who says we’re awful is talking bollocks just as anyone who says we’re amazing is.

molloyjh

Enquiring wrote: »

Do you forget your original message:



We were at the world cup, we lost to Japan and got ripped apart by New Zealand. We choked at the world cup again. There is nothing there to back up any claim that we would have beaten France. Wales didn't get a soft run, they got to the semi final on merit. They beat France and ran South Africa to 3 points.

This is actually pathetic. There is, apparently, nothing to prove that we would have beaten France even though we already had a few months before. Somehow that fact is irrelevant. If that's not complete nonsense then I dont know what is. You clearly have no interest in anything but your own opinion. Anything that doesn't prove it is irrelevant to you, no matter how relevant it actually is. Its actually just amusing tbh. Good luck.

kig

I hope that last nights performance, means that the Stockdale experiment at 15 is finally over - why take a good wing and make him into a less tan adequate 15? Things improved markedly once Keenan and Stockdale swapped, pity it was so late in the game. We definitely missed the spark that Ringrose brings, but Aki & Henshaw did OK. I also think that although both locks played well, we need an enforcer, no-one has yet stepped up to even try to fill O'Connell's shoes. But ultimately Sexton as captain made some shocking decisions, and they all played as if they hadn't handled a rugby ball in years. Basic skill level was awful!

shootermacg

molloyjh wrote: »

This is actually pathetic. There is, apparently, nothing to prove that we would have beaten France even though we already had a few months before. Somehow that fact is irrelevant. If that's not complete nonsense then I dont know what is. You clearly have no interest in anything but your own opinion. Anything that doesn't prove it is irrelevant to you, no matter how relevant it actually is. Its actually just amusing tbh. Good luck.

We didn't beat Japan, I don't think we would have beaten France either.

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

No you're dropping Doris for Beirne.

No your re-locating Beirne and dropping Doris out of the team our best 6 in the country for our 4th choice lock.....

And even dropping Doris for Beirne is equally ridiculous

Podge_irl

Enquiring wrote: »

We were at the world cup, we lost to Japan and got ripped apart by New Zealand. We choked at the world cup again. There is nothing there to back up any claim that we would have beaten France. Wales didn't get a soft run, they got to the semi final on merit. They beat France and ran South Africa to 3 points.

We didn't choke at the world cup. We weren't particularly great for a whole year leading into it, as people were at pains to point out at the time.

shootermacg

kingofthekong wrote: »

No your re-locating Beirne and dropping Doris out of the team our best 6 in the country for our 4th choice lock.....

And even dropping Doris for Beirne is equally ridiculous

Your entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong.

Clegg

Beirne brings a lot of good qualities to any side. Heft isn't one of them.

shootermacg

Clegg wrote: »

Beirne brings a lot of good qualities to any side. Heft isn't one of them.

Yeah 18 stone vs Doris at 16 stone?

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

We didn't choke at the world cup. We weren't particularly great for a whole year leading into it, as people were at pains to point out at the time.

Exactly. We carried our form for the year into the RWC. Thats not choking.

Enquiring

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You tried to prove this playing number stuff with nonsense numbers and you’ve made a fool of yourself there so now you’re resorting to a bunch of straw men arguments.

The truth is we do ok for our size. We don’t necessarily punch massively above our weight. We underperform in the World Cup, we arguably overperformed in the 6 nations the last decade or so. In the 2010s we were ahead of where we were in the 2000s, in the 2000s we were ahead of where we were in the 1990s. So things are going fine and there’s potential there for us to win more in the next decade. Anyone who says we’re awful is talking bollocks just as anyone who says we’re amazing is.

The numbers came from Worldrugby.org. You will have to gom dispute it with them. I was responding to this quote:

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

All teams have positives and negatives, this 6 nations we have England and France away, our two hardest games and normally the 6 nations we fear. We lost both games which is hardly a surprise.

If anything the performance yesterday was better than people could have imagined post England.

Are we still in top 4 in World? No....are we close? Yes

Not too bad for a small island and rugby been our 3rd sport

And I've busted the myths. We choke at world cups and we're not punching above our weight. Going on numbers and resources, it's embarrassing.

molloyjh

Hahaha, oh the delusion.

Enquiring

molloyjh wrote: »

This is actually pathetic. There is, apparently, nothing to prove that we would have beaten France even though we already had a few months before. Somehow that fact is irrelevant. If that's not complete nonsense then I dont know what is. You clearly have no interest in anything but your own opinion. Anything that doesn't prove it is irrelevant to you, no matter how relevant it actually is. Its actually just amusing tbh. Good luck.

Ireland played Japan 7 times before the world cup, never lost, in fact no game was ever close. Then they humiliated us at the world cup. Your claim that we would have beaten France doesn't stack up. And your claim that Wales got a soft draw doesn't stack up either.

WhoamI2022

Clegg wrote: »

Beirne brings a lot of good qualities to any side. Heft isn't one of them.

Kleyn brings heft but little else

Enquiring

Podge_irl wrote: »

We didn't choke at the world cup. We weren't particularly great for a whole year leading into it, as people were at pains to point out at the time.

So claims that we would definitely have beaten France are pure nonsense then, I agree.

WhoamI2022

Enquiring wrote: »

The numbers came from Worldrugby.org. You will have to gom dispute it with them. I was responding to this quote:



And I've busted the myths. We choke at world cups and we're not punching above our weight. Going on numbers and resources, it's embarrassing.

You haven't busted anything. You are rambling and none of it is coherant.

Enquiring

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

You haven't busted anything. You are rambling and none of it is coherant.

The myths about population and playing numbers that you ascribe to have been busted. Well, you haven't provided anything to back up your claims anyway.

irishbucsfan

Enquiring wrote: »

The numbers came from Worldrugby.org. You will have to gom dispute it with them. I was responding to this quote:



And I've busted the myths. We choke at world cups and we're not punching above our weight. Going on numbers and resources, it's embarrassing.

You haven’t actually come close to doing that.

It is an overachievement for Ireland to be top 3/4 in the world. I don’t personally believe we are currently though.

And we are a small island and rugby isn’t our primary sport. Those are not myths. Is it even our 3rd sport?! Surely that’s even an overstatement of it’s importance in Ireland.

How much of an impact a sport being played in localised areas or by a minority has is very hard to quantify though.

WhoamI2022

Enquiring wrote: »

The myths about population and playing numbers that you ascribe to have been busted. Well, you haven't provided anything to back up your claims anyway.

You provided incorrect numbers....I gave you the right ones. You ignored them

OneLungDavy

shootermacg wrote: »

You can carry and ruck all you want but if you aren't sucking in defenders, then you can huff and puff all day. Beirne carried well, his breakdown work was exceptional, so he deserves his place, but he's not a TH lock.

I feel that having Ryan as a TH lock is like making a donkey out of a racehorse. Having a big heavy option to do the basics will free Ryan up to do what he's good at. Ryan looked knackered out there, we can't keep flogging the guy or he'll burn out.

You want to pick Kleyn because he's big? He's the most average lock in the country.



People think Roux is a monster, I assume it's just because he's South African. Putting him in as a 'big heavy option' doesn't make much sense, he's the same weight as Ryan.


Roux: https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/quinn-roux/
Ryan: https://www.irishrugby.ie/player/james-ryan/


Henderson will come in when he's fit. I think Beirne should play 6, he was immense last night, stood up really well even in the second half.

Dog Botherer

lads he’s fit to burst, quit feckin feeding him

Enquiring

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You haven’t actually come close to doing that.

It is an overachievement for Ireland to be top 3/4 in the world. I don’t personally believe we are currently though.

And we are a small island and rugby isn’t our primary sport. Those are not myths. Is it even our 3rd sport?! Surely that’s even an overstatement of it’s importance in Ireland.

How much of an impact a sport being played in localised areas or by a minority has is very hard to quantify though.

I have. It's a sport with only about 10 teams competing seriously, we've never reached the last 4 in the major tournament. That shows that we are punching below our weight.

You have issues with the figures taken from worldrugby.org but you put your faith into the world ranking system! :pac: Remember when we were number 1 in the world?

Facts are that we don't have a valid population excuse, we don't have a valid playing numbers excuse and we don't have a valid resources excuse. Basically, the excuses have all been used up.

Enquiring

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

You provided incorrect numbers....I gave you the right ones. You ignored them

I did not. Your claim was that we're doing well for an island our size. I've shown that this is not the case when you look at other countries with less playing resources.

Niallof9

Enquiring wrote: »

I did not. Your claim was that we're doing well for an island our size. I've shown that this is not the case when you look at other countries with less playing resources.

I wouldn't bother. nothing, i mean nothing will convince some on here. awful performance, awful tournament no matter what the stats say. I don't think Farrell will be the guy to lead us going forward. i have no idea what Mike Catt is doing either

CMcsporty

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

France always play a game with the 9 more critical than the 10....Ireland play with the 10 the most critical. Not really a comparison

Murray doesn’t have a running threat anymore, that’s not saying he had a bad game.

France have a very good young 10
And one of the most exceptional 9’s on the planet. Who is also very young.

To crystalise everything you need to know about the level Ireland’s 10 & 9 are at I encourage people to rewatch the opening 2 minutes of the 2nd half.

1. Sexton kicks off by putting an average kick into the French 22 nearly 15 in from touch line.
Should be 5m from touch.

2. From resulting Lineout Ireland get good ball from Connors at the tail. Beirne acts as SH and throws pass to Murray.
Under no pressure at all from French defence Murray throws the most god awful pass out to Henshaw
It’s so bad it bounces at the feet of Henshaw who does remarkably well to gather but has to go back inside.

3. 4 phases later Murray actually makes a snipe from a ruck. Stockdale had come in to a dead ruck.
No gap and Willemse stops him just beyond gainline.
At least he had a go at the pillar defence.

4. 2 phases after that Murray passes out to Doris at the tip of a 3 man pod.
Dorris manages to get a good pass out of the tackle to Sexton to run on to.
With 5 on 2 20m from the touch line Sexton pops it to CJ beside him without properly committing Vakatawa who gets a hit in on CJ and the ball pops up in the air and CJ regathers.
Sexton had loads of time to pick the pass out the back to Henshaw and Ireland would have had -Henshaw, Stockdale and Keenan v Rattez and a clean run to the line.

5. 3 Phases later Sexton chips too hard over the top for Aki.
6 on 4 over lap with Fickou completely isolated.
Bouthier easily gathers and clear the ball down the middle of the pitch into the Irish 22.

If I hear Ireland are now trying to play heads up rugby one more time I’ll scream!

We have halfbacks who are way past their best and incapable of playing what’s in front of them at this level.

AbusesToilets

I'd say our players are fine, as a collective they match up well with any of the other teams. Perhaps a bit lacking in elite players currently, but more than capable of competing. Our style of play is where we're lacking. Our attack is too easily nullified, basic ball skills are still lacking. We struggle to create breaks in the middle of the field imo.