Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Enquiring

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

That’s confirm you really haven’t a clue :-) you might say you are “busted”

Just threw your own logic back at ya. You have no argument, you're a busted flush.

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So if we look at it since Kidney took over:

We've won 2 grand slams since 2009. In that time England have 1, France have 1 and Wales have 2.

And since then we've won the 6 Nations 4 times. That was the most of anyone in the competition until yesterday.

This is in a competition against England and France who are far, far bigger than us as rugby nations, and Wales and Scotland who are around the same size. So how does that bust these excuses (I'm not sure who is making excuses for us winning this competition!)?

Imagine what Demander on planches.fr must be posting! :pac:

UAEguy2020

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So if we look at it since Kidney took over:

We've won 2 grand slams since 2009. In that time England have 1, France have 1 and Wales have 2.

And since then we've won the 6 Nations 4 times. That was the most of anyone in the competition until yesterday.

This is in a competition against England and France who are far, far bigger than us as rugby nations, and Wales and Scotland who are around the same size. So how does that bust these excuses (I'm not sure who is making excuses for us winning this competition!)?

Not sure if im mistaken but I thought this was a rugby competition, not a geography competition.

WhoamI2022

Enquiring wrote: »

Just threw your own logic back at ya. You have no argument, you're a busted flush.

:-) yes of course

Skeetur

OldRio wrote: »

Some thrive on the attention. Sad

sydthebeat wrote: »

laughable how some will only post after ireland losses but never post during ireland success..... agenda perhaps ???

VayNiice wrote: »

Would you not be better suited to the soccer forum?

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet here we are, yet again, with someone who apparently never actually watched RK play for Ireland but has convinced themselves that they're an internet expert.

sydthebeat wrote: »

There was a full moon last night.....

mfceiling wrote: »

Or the ranting and raving.

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

That’s confirm you really haven’t a clue :-) you might say you are “busted”

Enquiring wrote: »

Just threw your own logic back at ya. You have no argument, you're a busted flush.

Some quality discussion on here :pac:

I'd say all of you would be better suited to AH.

Skeetur

Deleted User wrote: »

What's this about?



If Rob Kearney from 2019 (at the very twilight of his career) had have started at FB yesterday, it's an entirely different game. Stockdale was terrible in defence, and no Irish player was able to reliably contest in the air. Kearney has always been rock solid at both, providing an anchor at fullback so that long distance kicks aren't a threat and we can contest kick returns. RK was pivotal in that role for both the most successful Leinster team of all time and the most successful Irish team.



Yet here we are, yet again, with someone who apparently never actually watched RK play for Ireland but has convinced themselves that they're an internet expert.



🤦*♂️

It's hilarious how short peoples memories are. Kearney was bang average for years at international level having plenty of last line of defense blunders like Stockdale has last night and offering absolutely nothing in attack. There was constant calls for anyone to move there ahead. Payne, Henshaw etc. Then Henshaw gets the nod and has a mare in 1 game, Kearney pulls one of his rare good performances out of the bag and all is forgotten with him declared a hero and history rewritten. Until a novice FB in Larmour claims his place after a couple OK games.

Murray and Sexton are going the same way. The definition of average in a string of games, calls come in to make a change. Then they pull out a performance to remind people what they're actually capable of and all is forgiven while Ireland trundle on back into another string of average performances.

WhoamI2022

Skeetur wrote: »

It's hilarious how short peoples memories are. Kearney was bang average for years at international level having plenty of last line of defense blunders like Stockdale has last night and offering absolutely nothing in attack. There was constant calls for anyone to move there ahead. Payne, Henshaw etc. Then Henshaw gets the nod and has a mare in 1 game, Kearney pulls one of his rare good performances out of the bag and all is forgotten with him declared a hero and history rewritten. Until a novice FB in Larmour claims his place after a couple OK games.

Murray and Sexton are going the same way. The definition of average in a string of games, calls come in to make a change. Then they pull out a performance to remind people what they're actually capable of and all is forgiven while Ireland trundle on back into another string of average performances.

This is the problem, I don't have a short memory. When the calls for Kearney to get replaced came around he had a run for about two season when he constantly picked up injuries. He was struggling to get any sort of run of games. That was the two season prior to the NZ match. That was first first run of games, hit the NZ game. Had a cracker and stayed fit that season. Was also one of the best players in that 6 nations win. But most don't like to talk about that. Just the two injury prone seasons

aloooof

Skeetur wrote: »

Kearney was bang average for years at international level having plenty of last line of defense blunders like Stockdale has last night and offering absolutely nothing in attack.

I understand your point about his attacking. But can you provide examples of these plenty last-line-of-defence blunders?

shootermacg

Pettiness followed by more pettiness. The last few pages are pure children spitting their dummies..

Skeetur

Skeetur wrote: »

It's hilarious how short peoples memories are. Kearney was bang average for years at international level having plenty of last line of defense blunders like Stockdale has last night and offering absolutely nothing in attack. There was constant calls for anyone to move there ahead. Payne, Henshaw etc. Then Henshaw gets the nod and has a mare in 1 game, Kearney pulls one of his rare good performances out of the bag and all is forgotten with him declared a hero and history rewritten. Until a novice FB in Larmour claims his place after a couple OK games.

Why are you talking about 'short memories' when, as I previously pointed out, it's clear you have never actually watched Rob Kearney play in Ireland games? A short memory beats no memories.

The most decorated Irish player of all time, European Rugby Player of the Year in 2012. Was one of the stand out players of the 2009 Lions Tour. Pivotal in beating NZ in 2016. First choice for Ireland for 12 years when uninjured, despite all the talent in Ireland during that period.

"bang average for years"

RK had his weaknesses, injuries took their toll - but what an awful opinion that even the most cursory knowledge of Irish Rugby would show to be absolutely nonsense. He was not played as an out-and-out attacking FB, Stedding and him were of a similar style. Your amazing knowledge of rugby would have informed you that not every position has to be played the same way and that teams can and do set up differently?

No?

Right.

Skeetur

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you talking about 'short memories' when, as I previously pointed out, it's clear you have never actually watched Rob Kearney play in Ireland games? A short memory beats no memories.

The most decorated Irish player of all time, European Rugby Player of the Year in 2012. Was one of the stand out players of the 2009 Lions Tour. Pivotal in beating NZ in 2016. First choice for Ireland for 12 years when uninjured, despite all the talent in Ireland during that period.

"bang average for years"

RK had his weaknesses, injuries took their toll - but what an awful opinion that even the most cursory knowledge of Irish Rugby would show to be absolutely nonsense. He was not played as an out-and-out attacking FB, Stedding and him were of a similar style. Your amazing knowledge of rugby would have informed you that not every position has to be played the same way and that teams can and do set up differently?

No?

Right.

There's clearly no point even trying to discuss anything with you. You've no interest in doing anything but throwing insults at me.

TRANQUILLO

Stockdale is'nt a fullbacks arsehole.

Skeetur

Skeetur wrote: »

There's clearly no point even trying to discuss anything with you. You've no interest in doing anything but throwing insults at me.

Stating the same opinion over and over isn't a 'discussion', particularly when said opinion directly contradicts the players achievements and all the articles about his career.

Can you point to a single article that characterises RK as a 'bang average' player over the course of his career? Because even a basic google search will show many results of sports writers and fellow players lauding him.

Skeetur

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

This is the problem, I don't have a short memory. When the calls for Kearney to get replaced came around he had a run for about two season when he constantly picked up injuries. He was struggling to get any sort of run of games. That was the two season prior to the NZ match. That was first first run of games, hit the NZ game. Had a cracker and stayed fit that season. Was also one of the best players in that 6 nations win. But most don't like to talk about that. Just the two injury prone seasons

Blame it on injuries and lack of game time or whatever you want. The fact was there was constant calls over a number of years for a change at FB because he wasn't performing and seen as average and limited compared to other FB's. I see the other guy's evidence of his consistency are achievements from a decade ago.

But it doesn't matter anyway this isn't about Rob Kearney, it's just being dragged off topic. It's about lack of consistency from current players, namely Murray and Sexton. They're capable of playing to a high level, they don't regularly do so.

Enquiring

This forum is very hostile! Is it the norm the abuse people who hold a different view?

b.gud

I haven't looked on here since the match and just decided to skip directly to the last page or so. I think 8ts safe to say that it's one of the better decisions I've made

Heres Johnny

Enquiring wrote: »

This forum is very hostile! Is it the norm the abuse people who hold a different view?

Yeah I got serious abuse for saying that I don't think what we have now, and what's up and coming, is as good as what we had in the past 10-12 years or so. Name calling, accused of not watching rugby, not being able to read etc.. I stand by it, I think we are in for a fallow period of competing for 3rd place in 6 nations for a while. Hope I'm wrong.

foxyladyxx

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Yeah I got serious abuse for saying that I don't think what we have now, and what's up and coming, is as good as what we had in the past 10-12 years or so. Name calling, accused of not watching rugby, not being able to read etc.. I stand by it, I think we are in for a fallow period of competing for 3rd place in 6 nations for a while. Hope I'm wrong.

I don't think too many would argue with that. On a positive note with the crop of youngsters coming through we should be able to field a very strong side by 2024.

Probably won't get too excited by Internationals before that!!

WhoamI2022

Skeetur wrote: »

Blame it on injuries and lack of game time or whatever you want. The fact was there was constant calls over a number of years for a change at FB because he wasn't performing and seen as average and limited compared to other FB's. I see the other guy's evidence of his consistency are achievements from a decade ago.

But it doesn't matter anyway this isn't about Rob Kearney, it's just being dragged off topic. It's about lack of consistency from current players, namely Murray and Sexton. They're capable of playing to a high level, they don't regularly do so.

I don’t remember consistent calls over a number of years, yes one province had an issue with him but the same group of “fans” had issues with Heaslip, Sexton, D Kearney, McFadden etc(notice the link?)

Murray and Sexton have been consistent, that’s why they are in the team.

WhoamI2022

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Yeah I got serious abuse for saying that I don't think what we have now, and what's up and coming, is as good as what we had in the past 10-12 years or so. Name calling, accused of not watching rugby, not being able to read etc.. I stand by it, I think we are in for a fallow period of competing for 3rd place in 6 nations for a while. Hope I'm wrong.

Well that is a rabbit hole argument, you are comparing players at end of career with huge success to players who I guess you are talking about in academies?

You can only make a comparison at the end of their careers, look at the golden generation as it was called, the doom and gloom as it ended but it was replaced with a better generation. No idea if the next one will be good/bad/indifferent but no idea how you make an argument to compare?

Dog Botherer

given the current rich crop of talent that England and France currently have, i don’t see much shame in us having a few 3rd place finishes over the next few years.

WhoamI2022

Dog Botherer wrote: »

given the current rich crop of talent that England and France currently have, i don’t see much shame in us having a few 3rd place finishes over the next few years.

Based on yesterday ireland will beat France at home, looking at other games they will also beat Wales, Scotland and Italy away. England is problematic but if England play like yesterday Ireland would win ....

Who knows how good England will be with a huge check of team playing non competitive rugby

Dog Botherer

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Based on yesterday ireland will beat France at home, looking at other games they will also beat Wales, Scotland and Italy away. England is problematic but if England play like yesterday Ireland would win ....

Who knows how good England will be with a huge check of team playing non competitive rugby

A large chunk of that French team are under the age of 25 and they have a lot more coming through the ranks. We’ll be very lucky to keep in touch with them.

If we can work out an answer to the English power game we might get somewhere. but they have a lot of very good young lads too.

Wales, Scotland, and Italy will struggle against us for a while, i think.

molloyjh

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Yeah I got serious abuse for saying that I don't think what we have now, and what's up and coming, is as good as what we had in the past 10-12 years or so. Name calling, accused of not watching rugby, not being able to read etc.. I stand by it, I think we are in for a fallow period of competing for 3rd place in 6 nations for a while. Hope I'm wrong.

I have been saying the same for a while and a few regulars have too. I dont remember the content of your posts or the replies, but I never got that reaction. I think most recognise that the talent we have now and coming through, while good, isnt great. And that's happening at a time when England and France are finding some top quality talent throughout their side.

I'm sure some react badly to certain opinions, but more often than not the reaction is to the wider content and context of those opinions. We're here to discuss. Thats the point of the forum. Some could do with being less dismissive of different opinions. But others (and we've seen classic examples of it in the last 24 hours) could also do with recognising that their opinions are not gospel and develop an ability to constructively discuss things and be critical of their own opinions as well as others. Too many people (almost always after an Irish loss) want to weigh in with selective facts and/or inaccurate info to peddle a contrarian opinion.

None of that is aimed at you. As I said, I dont remember the posts so can't comment. I agree with your general point and am more than happy to talk about Irish rugby shortcomings in a realistic and reasonable manner. I think most here are the same. That said, I have a huge ignore list so its entirely possible I missed a lot of the posts from any of those discussions.

UAEguy2020

I think overall there is far too much throwing the baby out with the bath water on this thread, it must be remembered we are still well and truly in a transitional phase and while we have seen a lot of positives we also have the look of a side trying to get to grips with the new style of play and that was really noticeable in the first 10-15 minutes of the 2nd half when we fell to pieces and even that decision to turn down the 3 points before half time. In comparison while Shaun Edwards just came in Galthié and Ibenez have had an entire World Cup and EJ has had 4 years with England. Farrell without any time before the 6N had managed to get this team to potentially 40 minutes away from becoming 6N champions which would have been a phenomenal achievement when you consider the circumstances.

Personally I think making any predictions or assumptions based on this championship is probably not really right and I think this is the case after every World Cup as teams are in different places after world cups some are in transition (Ireland,Wales,Italy) some are still evolving (France) and some are still in a similar place (England,Scotland) and because this there can be a lot of curve balls.

I would personally wait until the next 6N to make any assumptions as all the talk of transition and evolution goes doesn’t hold as much water as we will all have played 9-10 matches and at that point it really is about winning.

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

A few points to put our 6Ns into perspective.

Ireland were joint top try scorers on 17 - level with France.

Ireland were second highest point scorers behind France.

Ireland and France were the only 2 sides to get 2 TBPs.

Ireland scored more points against Italy than anyone else.

With 40 mins left in the Championship we were still in the hunt to win it, with everyone else other than England out of the running.

Anyone who can't find positives in this year so far isn't being objective. There are positives. And a good spell together over October and November will help to cement the new style we're looking to play. I have concerns about the talent available to us in the short to medium term, but let's see how that goes over the next year or so.

This is the point I’ve been trying to get across, considering this has really been a championship about transition for Ireland (probably the team most in transition bar Italy, Stephen Jones was already attack coach of Wales during the WC so they had a bit of a head start) we have actually done really well. He has 4 games now where we can try things out a bit more especially now with rankings not meaning much and build towards the next 6N and with France and England at home and Wales not being at the races we can go into that tournament with confidence.

I personally would like to see Farrell bring in a lot of the 1999 & 2000 group as I think it’s an extremely talented group.

Rugbymad2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

This is the point I’ve been trying to get across, considering this has really been a championship about transition for Ireland (probably the team most in transition bar Italy, Stephen Jones was already attack coach of Wales during the WC so they had a bit of a head start) we have actually done really well. He has 4 games now where we can try things out a bit more especially now with rankings not meaning much and build towards the next 6N and with France and England at home and Wales not being at the races we can go into that tournament with confidence.

I personally would like to see Farrell bring in a lot of the 1999 & 2000 group as I think it’s an extremely talented group.

Transition???farrel been with ireland years,players know him and he knows players aswell as numerous other things a new coach normally has to learn.

UAEguy2020

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

Transition???farrel been with ireland years,players know him and he knows players aswell as numerous other things a new coach normally has to learn.

It is because none of the coaches are in the same role, Farrell no longer runs the Defence, Esterby is now the Defence coach. The players are familiar of course which makes it a friendly surrounding but the overall game plan is going to be completely different.

gadarnol

How long before Sexton starts on the subs bench?

irishbucsfan

Enquiring wrote: »

I know you want to brush over the world cup but unfortunately, the chokes in the biggest and most important competition can't be ignored. 2011, knocked out by Wales, 2015, knocked out by Argentina and 2019 effectively knocked out by Japan.

The excuses have been used for these defeats but have been busted as I pointed out. We've done better recently in the 6 Nations compared to our miserable record previously but it doesn't change the fact that we've underachieved in a 10 team sport.

Ah come on. I was replying to a post where you mentioned the 6 Nations. I already agreed we underperform in the World Cup.

I'll just take this as agreement that we actually are completely up to par when it comes to the 6 Nations. If anything, we're clearly performing extremely well in that competition.

It's just the World Cup where we underperform, once every 4 years. I've no idea why that happens, its extremely disappointing. I don't know if it can be turned around. I don't know if Farrell is the man to do that. No one does.

What I do know is that the next World Cup is 3 years away, and if I spent my waking hours worrying about whether or not it'll happen again up until that competition I'd be completely miserable. So I won't.