Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof

Enquiring wrote: »

...and 2019 effectively knocked out by Japan.

To be accurate, this is likely not true. Even if we had beaten Japan, we'd still have faced South Africa, the current RWC Winners, in the QF.

That RWC record is the obvious failing in Irish rugby, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But you seem to be arguing that we've also under-achieved in the 6N's etc. In reality part of the reason the RWC has been so disappointing is precisely because of how well we've performed comparatively in 6N's, Summer tours and AI's. You can't have it both ways.

WhoamI2022

aloooof wrote: »

To be accurate, this is likely not true. Even if we had beaten Japan, we'd still have faced South Africa, the current RWC Winners, in the QF.

That RWC record is the obvious failing in Irish rugby, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But you seem to be arguing that we've also under-achieved in the 6N's etc. In reality part of the reason the RWC has been so disappointing is precisely because of how well we've performed comparatively in 6N's, Summer tours and AI's. You can't have it both ways.

I’m not sure what point the poster is trying to make apart from rugby is bad. It seems to be fire out as many cliches and see if they get a reaction. Then ignore all responses and say everything is busted :-) then at end of day complain because they feel they got bullied. The mind boggles at what the point actually is

siltirocker

Reading a few posts over the past day or two regarding Rob Kearney's performance in Chicago against the All Blacks. With many implying he had a great game.

I rewatched the game recently and I think people may have a bit of a Mandela effect because of two or three champagne aerial moments. He didn't have a terrible game, I'm not saying that, but can you really call it a top top performance if his mistakes directly contributed to each of the All Black 5/7 pointers? He was caught out badly for the first and second All Black tries. Doesn't shine himself in glory for the third. And a badly missed tackle lead to the fourth NZ try.

Too be clear, I think Kearney is the best fullback we've ever had, and that his loss of form in 2016 was massively over exaggerated. But in the same vain I think his performance in Chicago is also over exaggerated.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/SportforBusines/status/1323252035148500992?s=19

UAEguy2020

I’m just amazed horse racing isn’t top of the list!

WhoamI2022

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SportforBusines/status/1323252035148500992?s=19

16m to the FAI, thats some black hole isn't it

Burkie1203

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

16m to the FAI, thats some black hole isn't it

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

molloyjh

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

The sports aren't played equally nor are they equally affected by covid. Remember, the GAA are responsible for 2 sports as well so that will have an impact. It does seem jarring at first glance, but I'm not sure its all that disproportionate really.

WhoamI2022

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

Biggest sport, biggest number of people playing. Makes sense.

Giving more money to the FAI is really going to help that organization

Bazzo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

Why is it a joke? How many clubs/players are there in GAA compared to other sports? There's a lot of costs other than just professionalism associated with a sport.

No need to go down the route of GAA bashing for the sake of it. Same goes for the FAI funding.

Rigor Mortis

molloyjh wrote: »

The sports aren't played equally nor are they equally affected by covid. Remember, the GAA are responsible for 2 sports as well so that will have an impact. It does seem jarring at first glance, but I'm not sure its all that disproportionate really.

GAA are responsible for at least three sports, you are forgetting handball. To be fully correct their are four GAA sports, rounders being the fourth. Those are four distinct sports as opposed to minor variations of the same game.

It is a sign of how little trust there is in the FAI that they have been given less than Rugby. Rugby does incredibly well considering the low participation rate of the sport. I know they dont always get everything right but the IRFU deserve immense credit for the manner in which they keep the sport punching way above its weight in such funding initiatives.

WhoamI2022

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

GAA are responsible for at least three sports, you are forgetting handball. To be fully correct their are four GAA sports, rounders being the fourth. Those are four distinct sports as opposed to minor variations of the same game.

It is a sign of how little trust there is in the FAI that they have been given less than Rugby. Rugby does incredibly well considering the low participation rate of the sport. I know they dont always get everything right but the IRFU deserve immense credit for the manner in which they keep the sport punching way above its weight in such funding initiatives.

Camogie

The Lost Sheep

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

GAA are responsible for at least three sports, you are forgetting handball. To be fully correct their are four GAA sports, rounders being the fourth. Those are four distinct sports as opposed to minor variations of the same game.

It is a sign of how little trust there is in the FAI that they have been given less than Rugby. Rugby does incredibly well considering the low participation rate of the sport. I know they dont always get everything right but the IRFU deserve immense credit for the manner in which they keep the sport punching way above its weight in such funding initiatives.

Handball cant be compared to any of the other sports in terms of participation/interest. Same with rounders.

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Camogie

Isnt part of GAA. Separate organisation. Same with ladies football...

Buer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

Amateur sport that is in every single town and village in the country and dwarves rugby and soccer. GAA clubs rely on the revenue generated in normal times within the organisation to pay their operating costs.

WhoamI2022

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Handball cant be compared to any of the other sports in terms of participation/interest. Same with rounders.

Isnt part of GAA. Separate organisation. Same with ladies football...

I would expect the funding under GAA covers all of those sports do you not think? or you saying the government is giving zero funding to ladies sports?

siltirocker

siltirocker wrote: »

Reading a few posts over the past day or two regarding Rob Kearney's performance in Chicago against the All Blacks. With many implying he had a great game.

I rewatched the game recently and I think people may have a bit of a Mandela effect because of two or three champagne aerial moments. He didn't have a terrible game, I'm not saying that, but can you really call it a top top performance if his mistakes directly contributed to each of the All Black 5/7 pointers? He was caught out badly for the first and second All Black tries. Doesn't shine himself in glory for the third. And a badly missed tackle lead to the fourth NZ try.

Too be clear, I think Kearney is the best fullback we've ever had, and that his loss of form in 2016 was massively over exaggerated. But in the same vain I think his performance in Chicago is also over exaggerated.

The first try, almost no fullback in the world is going to defend that 1 on 1 against Naholo. It just doesn't happen, and that wasn't due to RK's mistake - that's just something FBs face. Being the last tackler and missing tackles is part and parcel of playing at 15.



He made a mistake for the Barrett try by biting down too early, but was tremendous in the air, made at least one try-saving tackle (with help) and offered lots going forward (which was v. unusual for RK at that point in his career). He was one of the most important players in that victory - although admittedly that victory was against the weakest NZ side we've ever faced.


His performance in Chicago isn't overexaggerated unless someone is claiming it was world class (it wasn't). It certainly was in the top of the Irish team and one of the pivotal performances alongside Henshaw, Murray, Stander.



Player ratings from rugby journos after the game would seem to bear that claim out too.

WhoamI2022

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The first try, almost no fullback in the world is going to defend that 1 on 1 against Naholo. It just doesn't happen, and that wasn't due to RK's mistake - that's just something FBs face. Being the last tackler and missing tackles is part and parcel of playing at 15.



He made a mistake for the Barrett try by biting down too early, but was tremendous in the air, made at least one try-saving tackle (with help) and offered lots going forward (which was v. unusual for RK at that point in his career). He was one of the most important players in that victory - although admittedly that victory was against the weakest NZ side we've ever faced.


His performance in Chicago isn't overexaggerated unless someone is claiming it was world class (it wasn't). It certainly was in the top of the Irish team and one of the pivotal performances alongside Henshaw, Murray, Stander.



Player ratings from rugby journos after the game would seem to bear that claim out too.

Weakest NZ?

On the flight over most people expected ireland to hopefully lose by less than 20, now history is saying it was the weakest team ever

The other thread we have one lad saying everyone else was sh*t and that was the only reason ireland won 6 nations, now we are saying NZ was a terrible team when we beat them.....

molloyjh

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Weakest NZ?

On the flight over most people expected ireland to hopefully lose by less than 20, now history is saying it was the weakest team ever

The other thread we have one lad saying everyone else was sh*t and that was the only reason ireland won 6 nations, now we are saying NZ was a terrible team when we beat them.....

Haven't you realised by now? If Ireland winnit was because the other team was crap and not because Ireland was good. If Ireland lose its because Ireland are crap and not because the other team were good. Its an exercise in how to best run down acheivements incase anyone should get a big head. Its a service really.

thomond2006

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Not really. 31m to GAA is a joke. Amateur sport.

That 65m should have been split equally

GAA is a national sport(s) that draws massive crowds every summer. That money will be made back in VAT. Quite an ignorant remark.

Squidgy Black

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

I would expect the funding under GAA covers all of those sports do you not think? or you saying the government is giving zero funding to ladies sports?

They're linked but independent, but 5mil of the 31 is going to clubs, 1mil to the lgfa and 795k to the camogie association. 9m as a bailout for financial difficulty to the GAA and 15m to run the championship.

WhoamI2022

molloyjh wrote: »

Haven't you realised by now? If Ireland winnit was because the other team was crap and not because Ireland was good. If Ireland lose its because Ireland are crap and not because the other team were good. Its an exercise in how to best run down acheivements incase anyone should get a big head. Its a service really.

Seems that way alright....no matter what way ireland do it they end up been sh*t

Yeah_Right

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Weakest NZ?

On the flight over most people expected ireland to hopefully lose by less than 20, now history is saying it was the weakest team ever

The other thread we have one lad saying everyone else was sh*t and that was the only reason ireland won 6 nations, now we are saying NZ was a terrible team when we beat them.....

The weakest "NZ team ever" did make me laugh. The only weak points were the 2nd row (Tuipolotu wasn't half the player he is now and Kaino isn't a lock) and centre with Moala. The rest were first choice or near first choice.

The weakest would have been in 1992. In the pro era I'd say 2008 or the 3rd test in 2012.

UAEguy2020

I’ve him muted but did he seriously say that NZL team that was wonder world record winning run and was actually dubbed the greatest NZL team ever was the worst one ever ��

Funny how every Irish achievement ever conveniently has a caviate like that, no chance that Ireland were just the better team.

pickarooney

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

Weakest NZ?

On the flight over most people expected ireland to hopefully lose by less than 20, now history is saying it was the weakest team ever

The other thread we have one lad saying everyone else was sh*t and that was the only reason ireland won 6 nations, now we are saying NZ was a terrible team when we beat them.....

You could work for the GOP with that level of deliberate misinterpretation.
'weakest team ever'... 'terrible'... nobody said that and you know it.
The weakest NZ team we ever faced is still considerably better than pretty much any team on the planet. The weakest NZ we ever faced before 2018 still beat us.

WhoamI2022

pickarooney wrote: »

You could work for the GOP with that level of deliberate misinterpretation.
'weakest team ever'... 'terrible'... nobody said that and you know it.
The weakest NZ team we ever faced is still considerably better than pretty much any team on the planet. The weakest NZ we ever faced before 2018 still beat us.

I’m sure the person that actually posted “ although admittedly that victory was against the weakest NZ side we've ever faced” is capable of telling us what he/she meant

CMcsporty

CMcsporty wrote: »

France have a very good young 10
And one of the most exceptional 9’s on the planet. Who is also very young.

To crystalise everything you need to know about the level Ireland’s 10 & 9 are at I encourage people to rewatch the opening 2 minutes of the 2nd half.

1. Sexton kicks off by putting an average kick into the French 22 nearly 15 in from touch line.
Should be 5m from touch.

2. From resulting Lineout Ireland get good ball from Connors at the tail. Beirne acts as SH and throws pass to Murray.
Under no pressure at all from French defence Murray throws the most god awful pass out to Henshaw
It’s so bad it bounces at the feet of Henshaw who does remarkably well to gather but has to go back inside.

3. 4 phases later Murray actually makes a snipe from a ruck. Stockdale had come in to a dead ruck.
No gap and Willemse stops him just beyond gainline.
At least he had a go at the pillar defence.

4. 2 phases after that Murray passes out to Doris at the tip of a 3 man pod.
Dorris manages to get a good pass out of the tackle to Sexton to run on to.
With 5 on 2 20m from the touch line Sexton pops it to CJ beside him without properly committing Vakatawa who gets a hit in on CJ and the ball pops up in the air and CJ regathers.
Sexton had loads of time to pick the pass out the back to Henshaw and Ireland would have had -Henshaw, Stockdale and Keenan v Rattez and a clean run to the line.

5. 3 Phases later Sexton chips too hard over the top for Aki.
6 on 4 over lap with Fickou completely isolated.
Bouthier easily gathers and clear the ball down the middle of the pitch into the Irish 22.

If I hear Ireland are now trying to play heads up rugby one more time I’ll scream!

We have halfbacks who are way past their best and incapable of playing what’s in front of them at this level.

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I see Murray Kinsella mentions the kick from Sexton in his piece
https://www.the42.ie/ireland-championship-minutes-france-5251400-Nov2020/?utm_source=shortlink

Also highlights how the ensuing 1&1/2mins where Ntmack and Dupont instantly recognise the overlap and execute superbly.
Now that's head's up rugby!

Sexton & Murray have played together 61 times.
In fairness they were never capable of this level of skill but they are now so far from their best they cant even execute basic overlaps.

Nice montage of the good kicks from France and Irelands halfbacks.
https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1323571432476037125?s=20

On the last point about Murray and Sexton.
At least it was good to see clear, well-run shapes that reduced the decision making load on Murray & Sexton.
e.g. that opening min of the 2nd half.

What i still find the most puzzling is that the execution from Sexton and Murray is so bad....does the system suit them?
If we are trying to play a game our playmakers cant deliver on should we persist with both the players and the system or a simpler version?

I think both will get trotted out again for the England game.
But I would say the coaches must be thinking about some simpler modifications to the attacking shape.

moritz1234

Sexton is 35ys old
That should be his last game for Ireland
Go with the youngsters and plan for the next World Cup

Rugbymad2020

moritz1234 wrote: »

Sexton is 35ys old
That should be his last game for Ireland
Go with the youngsters and plan for the next World Cup

Fact is there is atleast 8 players that shouldn’t be anywhere near that Irish team due to age.u have 3 years to next World Cup.sacrifice now for the greater good.

aloooof

Rugbymad2020 wrote: »

Fact is there is atleast 8 players that shouldn’t be anywhere near that Irish team due to age.u have 3 years to next World Cup.sacrifice now for the greater good.

Who are the 8? And who should they be replaced by?

You'd likely have a significant leadership drought if you took this approach.

I'd also wager the average age of the starting 15 in the last 2 matches is probably amongst the lowest we've had in a long time?

Dog Botherer

lads clearly we’re lacking experience. get Donnacha Ryan back from France, stick him in the row with Toner, and sit that young pup JR back on the bench til he learns how to run a lineout. Stockdale needs to be dropped permanently, bring a solid lad like Earls or Dave Kearney into the back three, problem sorted.