Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Paul Smeenus

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/rugby-stats-irfu-s-young-talent-pathway-is-bearing-fruit-in-the-pro14-1.4406610

Bodes very well, and is massively encouraging, albeit the "let's tale a snapshot" approach is lazy and ultimately paints a pretty misleading picture in places.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

How come some of the overseas born players don't have an AIL club mentioned and some do? I remember reading an article about Lowe joining some lower tier club in "non-traditional" rugby neighbourhood in Dublin. I think it was Clondalkin. Why wouldn't that club be next to his name? I know its a trivial thing.

They never will have affiliated with any club. Wouldnt have been a reason for them. When not qualified for Ireland they would never have been able to play in the AIL and after that they just never joined with a club.

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Could be wrong but I think it could be a case that he's not a registered player with Clondalkin but just affiliated with the clubs. Clondalkin wouldn't be AIL either they're a junior club.

Shame some players arent listed as their home clubs especially guys that will never be seen playing club rugby bar the unlikiest of circumstances. Like Tadhg Furlong with New Ross,
Like its great to see Stockdale with Lurgan who are a junior division 2 club

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They never will have affiliated with any club. Wouldnt have been a reason for them. When not qualified for Ireland they would never have been able to play in the AIL and after that they just never joined with a club.

Shame some players arent listed as their home clubs especially guys that will never be seen playing club rugby bar the unlikiest of circumstances. Like Tadhg Furlong with New Ross,
Like its great to see Stockdale with Lurgan who are a junior division 2 club

I agree. I think it would be great if some of the big name players were affiliated with the smaller, lesser known clubs. Even if the only interaction is going be showing up at kids games for photos and autographs or presenting a few prizes. It was always a big buzz back home when an All Black or PI international would show up at the club on Saturday especially if they were actually putting the boots on. Admittedly that was very rare and was only if they were coming back from an injury.

It would be good if more of the overseas born players did what Lowe did and aligned themselves with a junior club. BTW, what is a junior club?

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree. I think it would be great if some of the big name players were affiliated with the smaller, lesser known clubs. Even if the only interaction is going be showing up at kids games for photos and autographs or presenting a few prizes. It was always a big buzz back home when an All Black or PI international would show up at the club on Saturday especially if they were actually putting the boots on. Admittedly that was very rare and was only if they were coming back from an injury.

It would be good if more of the overseas born players did what Lowe did and aligned themselves with a junior club. BTW, what is a junior club?

Junior clubs are teams fielding adult teams that are not in the AIL. Only 50 senior clubs in the country. all rest are junior or youths/minis clubs.

irishbucsfan

Fairly sure the IRFU won't list junior clubs for whatever reason. Might be dodgy memory, but I remember Jamie Heaslip wanted to list Naas back when they were out of the AIL and couldn't, then when they got back into AIL 3 I think he switched back from DU.

The Lost Sheep

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Fairly sure the IRFU won't list junior clubs for whatever reason. Might be dodgy memory, but I remember Jamie Heaslip wanted to list Naas back when they were out of the AIL and couldn't, then when they got back into AIL 3 I think he switched back from DU.

They want players affiliated to AIL teams as they may play for them and players dont generally change club when theyre not playing club rugby any more. As mentioned they do let it happen. Stockdale is listed as a junior club in team named for this week.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-the42-rugby-weekly-5264455-Nov2020/

"Whose fault is it Johnny isn't a great captain? Crucially, it's someone else's."

Cheap jibes aside, I don't know how much of a leadership group he actually does have around him. Especially in a team like tomorrow's with so many players with so few caps. Having said that, I don't know who Best would have had that Sexton doesn't. Kearney, maybe? Henderson being back will help.

shootermacg

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-the42-rugby-weekly-5264455-Nov2020/

"Whose fault is it Johnny isn't a great captain? Crucially, it's someone else's."

Cheap jibes aside, I don't know how much of a leadership group he actually does have around him. Especially in a team like tomorrow's with so many players with so few caps. Having said that, I don't know who Best would have had that Sexton doesn't. Kearney, maybe? Henderson being back will help.

I don't think Sexton made any bad decisions in the France game. I agreed with his decision to go for the 5M lineout after all we were there to win it and part of that is backing yourself.

Unfortunately when you have journalists that get paid to make players' lives a misery, it doesn't help when someone does anything at all to stand out. Sexton's mistake was not accepting being sent off with a deadpan face.

It's tough on Irish rugby players these days, trying to make the court of fools that is Irish journalism (and the more vocal fans) happy.

You have the likes of Off the Ball and Franno etc getting paid to act like arsehats.

Dog Botherer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-the42-rugby-weekly-5264455-Nov2020/

"Whose fault is it Johnny isn't a great captain? Crucially, it's someone else's."

Cheap jibes aside, I don't know how much of a leadership group he actually does have around him. Especially in a team like tomorrow's with so many players with so few caps. Having said that, I don't know who Best would have had that Sexton doesn't. Kearney, maybe? Henderson being back will help.

Henderson and O’Mahony isn’t too bad. Henshaw too maybe? I think Ryan and VDF are in the leadership group for Ireland. Could be wrong.

Paul Smeenus

shootermacg wrote: »

I don't think Sexton made any bad decisions in the France game. I agreed with his decision to go for the 5M lineout after all we were there to win it and part of that is backing yourself.

Unfortunately when you have journalists that get paid to make players' lives a misery, it doesn't help when someone does anything at all to stand out. Sexton's mistake was not accepting being sent off with a deadpan face.

It's tough on Irish rugby players these days, trying to make the court of fools that is Irish journalism (and the more vocal fans) happy.

You have the likes of Off the Ball and Franno etc getting paid to act like arsehats.

Well, the whole point of this article is to deflect criticism from him, so I think you're a bit off-base.

"I think there is a question mark around the leadership group in this Irish team and that’s not just Johnny. Everyone looks at Johnny but the days of the captain being all-encompassing and running everything are gone."

“Since then, in the big games like England away and France away, when things have gone amiss a bit, it seems like Johnny is the only one everyone is looking to. That’s tough on him, particularly the way Ireland play and so much going through him. That’s difficult."

He's hardly being hung out to dry.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-captain-the42-rugby-weekly-5264455-Nov2020/

"Whose fault is it Johnny isn't a great captain? Crucially, it's someone else's."

Cheap jibes aside, I don't know how much of a leadership group he actually does have around him. Especially in a team like tomorrow's with so many players with so few caps. Having said that, I don't know who Best would have had that Sexton doesn't. Kearney, maybe? Henderson being back will help.

Well to be fair Best had Sexton. Sexton doesn't have Sexton...if that makes sense...

New leaders will emerge

James Ryan, Garry Ringrose, CJ Stander, Bundee Aki...

shootermacg

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Well, the whole point of this article is to deflect criticism from him, so I think you're a bit off-base.

"I think there is a question mark around the leadership group in this Irish team and that’s not just Johnny. Everyone looks at Johnny but the days of the captain being all-encompassing and running everything are gone."

“Since then, in the big games like England away and France away, when things have gone amiss a bit, it seems like Johnny is the only one everyone is looking to. That’s tough on him, particularly the way Ireland play and so much going through him. That’s difficult."

He's hardly being hung out to dry.

“The interesting one is Eddie Jones. If you look at England when they play, at half-time before the players go into the dressing room, they have a little huddle on the field, they have various leaders in different areas of the game – not just Owen Farrell – speak and give feedback around how it has gone."

I couldn't help but think of the Benny Hill show that was Connor O'Shea's Italy making mugs of the English brains trust.

Paul Smeenus

shootermacg wrote: »

“The interesting one is Eddie Jones. If you look at England when they play, at half-time before the players go into the dressing room, they have a little huddle on the field, they have various leaders in different areas of the game – not just Owen Farrell – speak and give feedback around how it has gone."

I couldn't help but think of the Benny Hill show that was Connor O'Shea's Italy making mugs of the English brains trust.

Asking the ref how to play against them...

El_Duderino 09

shootermacg wrote: »

“The interesting one is Eddie Jones. If you look at England when they play, at half-time before the players go into the dressing room, they have a little huddle on the field, they have various leaders in different areas of the game – not just Owen Farrell – speak and give feedback around how it has gone."

I couldn't help but think of the Benny Hill show that was Connor O'Shea's Italy making mugs of the English brains trust.

Sometimes one leader is too dominant and it stifles other potential leaders from growing and developing into the lieutenants a team needs. Johnny always comes across as “narky” it’s one of the terms frequently used to describe his attitude.

Narky isn’t a good thing and a narky leader creates a terrible atmosphere. It’s the kind of atmosphere that might make people perform well in some ways but it doesn’t promote growth. It doesn’t promote new ideas because they’re short down and it doesn’t promote challenge to the narky leader.

I predict that as soon as Sexton retires, there will be a general attitude that he was good in some ways but his narky, authoritarian leadership style actually held them back in other ways

kingofthekong

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sometimes one leader is too dominant and it stifles other potential leaders from growing and developing into the lieutenants a team needs. Johnny always comes across as “narky” it’s one of the terms frequently used to describe his attitude.

Narky isn’t a good thing and a narky leader creates a terrible atmosphere. It’s the kind of atmosphere that might make people perform well in some ways but it doesn’t promote growth. It doesn’t promote new ideas because they’re short down and it doesn’t promote challenge to the narky leader.

I predict that as soon as Sexton retires, there will be a general attitude that he was good in some ways but his narky, authoritarian leadership style actually held them back in other ways

Sexton is a competitor to the 9th degree, the man wants to win with every fibre of his being, to be honest I love his attitude in many ways however sometimes it shows its self in undesirable ways like when he got subbed, but it shows you the pure passion he has to win at this level and I think that’s so important to have in the squad.

Sometimes his outbursts are a bit ridiculous but I also find that when players don’t show enough passion and fight in the jersey that’s equally off putting and frustrating to watch.
Now he may well be an authoritarian “narky” leader behind the scenes.. but that is all just total speculation as no one really has a clue how good or bad he is as a leader behind the scenes and how the lads perceive him.

By all accounts “again more speculation” Farrell is a great leader behind the scenes at sarries and England and how many questionable scenes have you seen from him on a pitch.....from taking opposing academy outhalfs heads off, fighting and mouthing off with other players etc etc Sexton acts out sometimes in the pitch and rightfully gets stick for it but assuming he’s a bad leader because of it I think is off the mark.

CMcsporty

kingofthekong wrote: »

Sexton is a competitor to the 9th degree, the man wants to win with every fibre of his being, to be honest I love his attitude in many ways however sometimes it shows its self in undesirable ways like when he got subbed, but it shows you the pure passion he has to win at this level and I think that’s so important to have in the squad.

Sometimes his outbursts are a bit ridiculous but I also find that when players don’t show enough passion and fight in the jersey that’s equally off putting and frustrating to watch.
Now he may well be an authoritarian “narky” leader behind the scenes.. but that is all just total speculation as no one really has a clue how good or bad he is as a leader behind the scenes and how the lads perceive him.

By all accounts “again more speculation” Farrell is a great leader behind the scenes at sarries and England and how many questionable scenes have you seen from him on a pitch.....from taking opposing academy outhalfs heads off, fighting and mouthing off with other players etc etc Sexton acts out sometimes in the pitch and rightfully gets stick for it but assuming he’s a bad leader because of it I think is off the mark.

Sexton is a without doubt the real leader in the Irish camp.
He also was after 2015 RWC
Fact are he is not a good captain. Very few have the mindset to play 10 and captain.
When he was at the peak of his powers in 2015 maybe...fortunately we had PO'C.

Was not a good selection to captain. People can dismiss it all they want but Paris was a true reflection of a man struggling to cope with game and his responsibilities. He played poorly and he acted poorly.

It should have been be CJ and/or Sexton, POM, Ringrose, Ryan on a rotational basis.

Compare to 2011 Sexton actually did have some quality leaders around him to help him captain during the 6N.
However, PO'C ad BO'D are irreplaceable. Ryan and Ringrose do have big boots to fill!

BO'D v Ringrose
PO'C v Ryan
Reddan v Murray
Sexton v Sexton
O'Gara v Carbery/Byrne...
DOC v Henderson
SO'B v PO'M
Best v Herring
Heaslip v CJ
Kearney v Larmour....Stockdale!
Earls v Earls

Project player aside - I'm incredibly excited to see Lowe play for Ireland. Brilliant player, brilliant attitude and a skill set I don't think we've ever had in the back three.

Stander has at times carried this Ireland team, one of the most influential players since O'Connell and Aki is rapidly following in the same mould. I hope Lowe brings as much to the team and I have every faith that he will.

Ireland 33 - 10 Wales

Let there not be one unslapped arse this evening.

CMcsporty

Lowe after a scrum penalty

lawrencesummers

It’s entirely possible that the three most influential players in this Irish team for the next two years will all be foreign born qualified through residency.
Stander
Aki
Lowe


Say whatever you like about it, agree with it or not I don’t care, the soccer is the same but at least these three players have firmly put their roots down here.

I’m fine with it but at the same time I think it devalues international rugby a little.

Personally I think there should be a limit on the number of residency qualified players in a match day 23.

El_Duderino 09

kingofthekong wrote: »

Sexton is a competitor to the 9th degree, the man wants to win with every fibre of his being, to be honest I love his attitude in many ways however sometimes it shows its self in undesirable ways like when he got subbed, but it shows you the pure passion he has to win at this level and I think that’s so important to have in the squad.

Sometimes his outbursts are a bit ridiculous but I also find that when players don’t show enough passion and fight in the jersey that’s equally off putting and frustrating to watch.
Now he may well be an authoritarian “narky” leader behind the scenes.. but that is all just total speculation as no one really has a clue how good or bad he is as a leader behind the scenes and how the lads perceive him.

By all accounts “again more speculation” Farrell is a great leader behind the scenes at sarries and England and how many questionable scenes have you seen from him on a pitch.....from taking opposing academy outhalfs heads off, fighting and mouthing off with other players etc etc Sexton acts out sometimes in the pitch and rightfully gets stick for it but assuming he’s a bad leader because of it I think is off the mark.

I don't really think the acting out when being subbed is the crux of it at all. It might be a symptom but it's the frequency with which you hear him being referred to as narky, and unable to accept when he's was wrong by former teammates, is hard to ignore.

As long as an authoritarian type of leader is able to lead everything, they can be effective. They also discourage challenge and don't promote a lively exchange of ideas which is another effective way to solve problems.

The contrast between how he and Rob Kearney would deal with things, is stark. Rob saw the writing on the wall and started training up his own replacement, in blue and green, in Jordan Larmour. Nobody expects Jonny to spend time with Ross Byrne or any other out half, telling them his secrets which will help them usurp him.

I think it will be interesting to see what the narrative is after e's left. I suspect there will be a big sigh of relief mixed with the sadness that a top player has moved on. A chance for a different way of working

Just to confirm, is the speculation that he's a great leader a fact and the speculation that he's narky just speculation?

EachSmallChime

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s entirely possible that the three most influential players in this Irish team for the next two years will all be foreign born qualified through residency.
Stander
Aki
Lowe


Say whatever you like about it, agree with it or not I don’t care, the soccer is the same but at least these three players have firmly put their roots down here.

I’m fine with it but at the same time I think it devalues international rugby a little.

Personally I think there should be a limit on the number of residency qualified players in a match day 23.

Literally everyone has been saying what they like about the residency rule. The rule changed, it's 5 years now, please move on for the sake of the thread.

The five year rule is a sufficient rectification for me. It removes potential cynicism from the equation.

Stander bleeds green - the man gives absolutely everything he can and I dare anyone to call his commitment into question. I'm not hung up on where someone is born, if you decide at a certain point in your life that you want to represent something or somewhere else - and then go about it with utter conviction, then as far as I'm concerned you've made your bed and you deserve to be allowed sleep in it.

Same goes for Aki - he has given a huge amount to the Connacht community and if he wants to call himself Irish I'm absolutely delighted to have him - he's an absolute hero of a human being.

We're very lucky that these people have chosen to want represent us and they do so to an impeccable standard, I'll happily cheer for them this evening.

thomond2006

Five years strikes the correct balance. Unions buying players for their national team effectively ends and that was my issue with it. Scotland in particular were taking the piss.

phog

Digital Match Program available online

hahashake

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s entirely possible that the three most influential players in this Irish team for the next two years will all be foreign born qualified through residency.
Stander
Aki
Lowe


Say whatever you like about it, agree with it or not I don’t care, the soccer is the same but at least these three players have firmly put their roots down here.

I’m fine with it but at the same time I think it devalues international rugby a little.

Personally I think there should be a limit on the number of residency qualified players in a match day 23.

Win and no one cares if 1/3 of the players are foreign, lose and it's one of the reasons (even when it isn't).

clsmooth

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s entirely possible that the three most influential players in this Irish team for the next two years will all be foreign born qualified through residency.

If Ryan, Furlong and Ringrose were foreign born you’d be referring to them as the three most influential players in the Irish team. I’d certainly back those 3 to get into a Lions 23 ahead of the others.

bilston

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Personally I think there should be a limit on the number of residency qualified players in a match day 23.

Players either qualify or they don't. There is no grey area here.

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

Players either qualify or they don't. There is no grey area here.

Yeah and it could get greyer. Someone like Adeloukon technically qualified on residency as far as I remember and I doubt many would want to treat him in the same way as the lads who came to just play rugby.

phog

phog wrote: »

Digital Match Program available online

Haven't seen one of those in a long time. You'd be sickened to pay a tenner for essentially a booklet of ads with a bit of rugby on the side.

pickarooney

salmocab wrote: »

Yeah and it could get greyer. Someone like Adeloukon technically qualified on residency as far as I remember and I doubt many would want to treat him in the same way as the lads who came to just play rugby.

Where is Niyi these days?