Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

The Lost Sheep

Clegg wrote: »

I think if a player is good enough it doesn't really matter if they haven't played against top level opposition yet. Hugo Keenan had only started Pro 14 games against middling opposition before being thrown into Leinster's knockout games in Europe and the league. And off a very small sample of games he was thrown into the Ireland starting side. Hasn't looked out of place at any level.

Thats fair enough but there has been plenty who've played and performed well much longer for other provinces at higher levels yet dont ever get a shot.
Id totally agree with thomond on some of the talk being very premature right now

Tomtom364

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I see a lot of people mentioning Gallagher, but he only has 3 caps or something since he's arrived, is that due to injury or just failing to break through past the likes of Daly/Haley? Would've expected given his cameos for Saracens he'd have played a bigger part so far.

For the restart the back three was Earls, Conway, Daly in all 3 games. For stability and also at the time the preferred first choice players form the end of last season that made sense.

Since the new season began Gallagher has started 3 out 5 games. Twice on the wing with Haley at 15 and once at 15.

Haley has started 4 of the 5 games.

We don't know what the team would have been for the Treviso game but it's possible Gallagher could have started 15 then too.

It's too early to make any "Failing to break through" comments i think. JVG is on record saying he is going to manage the squad and rotate it through this busy period to get everyone game time.

For the sake of clarity the rest of the 5 games back 3s were filled out by Conway & Nash 2 apps each, sweetnam 4 apps. All subs were either centres or forwards

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

I think if a player is good enough it doesn't really matter if they haven't played against top level opposition yet. Hugo Keenan had only started Pro 14 games against middling opposition before being thrown into Leinster's knockout games in Europe and the league. And off a very small sample of games he was thrown into the Ireland starting side. Hasn't looked out of place at any level.

Silly question, but what does "good enough" really mean? JOB has shown up really well against really poor teams when all in front of him have dominated. So what does that tell us about how he would fare against HEC opposition such as Montpellier? Let alone Test level opposition? I'd argue not that much tbh. Keenan earned a call up because he showed he could make the step up to top level HEC. He showed there that he was good enough for an Ireland call up. His performances against the likes of a dire Ospreys team during the 6Ns weren't a factor.

We need to be really careful about how we grade performances as not all games or all opposition are equal. There are players who have a ceiling below Test level. I think Ross Byrne is one of those. It also helps guys like that massively when their forwards are so dominant at provincial level, something that Irish forwards won't always be against top sides. So just because a guy is tearing it up at P14 level, that doesnt make him "good enough" in general. It just makes him good enough at that level. The rest is yet to be seen. Let's not forget how dangerous Fionn Carr was in the league years ago...

Also, while the only way you or I will ever know if a player is able to make the step up is by seeing them actually selected at the higher levels, that isnt the only thing the coaches have to go on. They'll be able to put a player under pressure in training and gauge how he responds there. Its not a definitive indication, but its a pretty decent one. I'm sure there was a reason Keenan was selected for those bigger games at Leinster ahead of JOB for example. Thats not to say JOB isn't "good enough" obviously. But let's just wait and see how he goes. If he is, he'll get his chances.

kingofthekong

Clegg wrote: »

I think if a player is good enough it doesn't really matter if they haven't played against top level opposition yet. Hugo Keenan had only started Pro 14 games against middling opposition before being thrown into Leinster's knockout games in Europe and the league. And off a very small sample of games he was thrown into the Ireland starting side. Hasn't looked out of place at any level.

Couldnt agree with this more, JOB to me would thrive in international rugby

kingofthekong

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats fair enough but there has been plenty who've played and performed well much longer for other provinces at higher levels yet dont ever get a shot.
Id totally agree with thomond on some of the talk being very premature right now

like who? , who do you think deserves a shot instead, I really dont think how long somoenes been around gives them any right to a jersey,

if someone is playing better at the time the jersey becomes available through injury or whatever else then the person showing the better rugby should be selected , not the player whos been around longer

kingofthekong

molloyjh wrote: »

Silly question, but what does "good enough" really mean? JOB has shown up really well against really poor teams when all in front of him have dominated. So what does that tell us about how he would fare against HEC opposition such as Montpellier? Let alone Test level opposition? I'd argue not that much tbh. Keenan earned a call up because he showed he could make the step up to top level HEC. He showed there that he was good enough for an Ireland call up. His performances against the likes of a dire Ospreys team during the 6Ns weren't a factor.

We need to be really careful about how we grade performances as not all games or all opposition are equal. There are players who have a ceiling below Test level. I think Ross Byrne is one of those. It also helps guys like that massively when their forwards are so dominant at provincial level, something that Irish forwards won't always be against top sides. So just because a guy is tearing it up at P14 level, that doesnt make him "good enough" in general. It just makes him good enough at that level. The rest is yet to be seen. Let's not forget how dangerous Fionn Carr was in the league years ago...

Also, while the only way you or I will ever know if a player is able to make the step up is by seeing them actually selected at the higher levels, that isnt the only thing the coaches have to go on. They'll be able to put a player under pressure in training and gauge how he responds there. Its not a definitive indication, but its a pretty decent one. I'm sure there was a reason Keenan was selected for those bigger games at Leinster ahead of JOB for example. Thats not to say JOB isn't "good enough" obviously. But let's just wait and see how he goes. If he is, he'll get his chances.

Shining against poor opposition isnt the best indicator sure, but its literally the only indicator you can use when that is all there is to play, and the way its trending and what hes showing is exactly that of a player that should be playing higher honours,

You cant gauge a metric thats not available and i tend to go for the less conservative assumption then the pessimistic option that he'll crack under pressure,

There is not a single thing from JOB's game that would indicate he couldnt,

Kicking game outstanding, running game outstanding, kicking grubbers for tries, cleaning up sloppy ball behind his own try line, can catch under pressure in the air, very strong in defence,

I dont think Ireland should wait till hes checked every single conservative box if he appears good enough, i understand when others disagree with this but because we only have 4 pro teams its very hard to have a large pool of players all getting Heineken cup experience ...because theres logjams in many positions especially at Leinster and the logjam ultimately hurts the Irish team,

Because of such a back log a Leinster or Daly at Munster behind Haley special consideration needs to happen for these guys who look the goods but dont have the experience,

England dont have to do this because they have 12 professional teams where guys can get top flight experience, Ireland dont have that luxury and for that reason i dont mind leap frog selections if a guy looks good enough but doesn't have an overly experienced rugby CV

Zzippy

Some posts deleted. Any more mention of project players, especially in the context of Irishness or some other such BS, will receive an instant ban. We are in an international window so the zero tolerance policy is in effect.

TRANQUILLO

Zzippy wrote: »

Some posts deleted. Any more mention of project players, especially in the context of Irishness or some other such BS, will receive an instant ban. We are in an international window so the zero tolerance policy is in effect.

I don't understand.How is stating a fact about foreign players in an Irish team sanctionable in a thread about the Irish team? It's not even a match thread? Where are we supposed to talk about it? It's relevant and topical seen as this lineup has reached a new lowe

It's like not being allowed talk about covid in a vaccine thread. Truly bizarre.
Can you send me a PM and let me know what's going on here?

TRANQUILLO

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

I don't understand.How is stating a fact about foreign players in an Irish team sanctionable in a thread about the Irish team? It's not even a match thread? Where are we supposed to talk about it? It's relevant and topical seen as this lineup has reached a new lowe

It's like not being allowed talk about covid in a vaccine thread. Truly bizarre.
Can you send me a PM and let me know what's going on here?

Some arguments have been done to death. This being one of them. You can't moan about the anthems either for example. boards.ie is not a bastion of free speech.

TRANQUILLO

Deleted User wrote: »

Some arguments have been done to death. This being one of them. You can't moan about the anthems either for example. boards.ie is not a bastion of free speech.

hasn't everything been done to death?

Shut all the covid threads and politics threads so. Its either a discussion forum or it isn't. Once the posts are respectful and not containing misinformation or libel. Whats the problem?

UAEguy2020

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

I don't understand.How is stating a fact about foreign players in an Irish team sanctionable in a thread about the Irish team? It's not even a match thread? Where are we supposed to talk about it? It's relevant and topical seen as this lineup has reached a new lowe

It's like not being allowed talk about covid in a vaccine thread. Truly bizarre.
Can you send me a PM and let me know what's going on here?

Because you are adding nothing new to the topic, it’s just flogging the same horse over and over again and continuing to derail the thread.

If you want you can talk about Vakatawa, Le Roux & Williemse in the France thread if allowed but in the mean time unless you have something new to add here just move on.

TRANQUILLO

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Because you are adding nothing new to the topic, it’s just flogging the same horse over and over again and continuing to derail the thread.

If you want you can talk about Vakatawa, Le Roux & Williemse in the France thread if allowed but in the mean time unless you have something new to add here just move on.

I hope the lads on boards.fr are doing that.

Why would I not talk about the national team of the website im on?

El_Duderino 09

Brief_Lives wrote: »

this is all I hear everytime...

Same with that corrupt clown TD in Tipp.

TRANQUILLO

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

hasn't everything been done to death?

Shut all the covid threads and politics threads so. Its either a discussion forum or it isn't. Once the posts are respectful and not containing misinformation or libel. Whats the problem?

No, not everything has been done to death.

You've kinda just ignored my point entirely.

molloyjh

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

I hope the lads on boards.fr are doing that.

Why would I not talk about the national team of the website im on?

It is a valid topic, but its also a worthless one. There is nothing new to be added to it and it ends up becoming a disruptive topic on the forum. Its more downside than upside as a topic. Just because we can talk about it, doesn't mean we should.

UAEguy2020

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

I hope the lads on boards.fr are doing that.

Why would I not talk about the national team of the website im on?

Because its up there with the Zebo chat (dont anyone dare open that can of worms!) for being done to death. We get it a conclusion has been reached and unless you have something valid to bring to the table that hasnt already been said my advice would be to park it.

aloooof

TRANQUILLO wrote: »

hasn't everything been done to death?

Nope. Here's a few things, just about this game at the weekend, that are infinitely more interesting than any residency conversation imo:

1. Healy and Porter are up against 2 of the front row that got the better of them in the QF v Saracens. How will they fair this time out?

2. England are playing JJ on the wing against us again. Isn't he nominally a centre? Hopefully there are some positional things we can exploit there.

3. In that regard, Ross Byrne's cross field kicks could come in very handy. Hopefully JGP's snappier service allows him to play that bit flatter as well.

4. England with Farrell, Daly and Slade; how do we negate their kicking game? (We even saw Kruis put in a grubber in the 6 Nations, I believe).

5. First time for Doris lining out against England. With his inclusion, can our backrow now compete with theirs?

6. James Ryan's first time as captain. Be great to see how he goes.

7. Saw some pundit also mention this, but should we try to get under Itoje's and Sinkler's skin?

8. Is Conway unlucky to be dropped out of the 23?

9. VdF going thru a poor run of form at the moment. Given his skill set, he's probably unlikely to get the bench back-row slot, so he might have a hard time getting back into the team?

10. Is Courtney Lawes injured? Thought he'd be an option for England, even possibly at 6, which EJ seems to like against us.

CMcsporty

aloooof wrote: »

Nope. Here's a few things, just about this game at the weekend, that are infinitely more interesting than any residency conversation imo:

1. Healy and Porter are up against 2 of the front row that got the better of them in the QF v Saracens. How will they fair this time out?

2. England are playing JJ on the wing against us again. Isn't he nominally a centre? Hopefully there are some positional things we can exploit there.

3. In that regard, Ross Byrne's cross field kicks could come in very handy. Hopefully JGP's snappier service allows him to play that bit flatter as well.

4. England with Farrell, Daly and Slade; how do we negate their kicking game? (We even saw Kruis put in a grubber in the 6 Nations, I believe).

5. First time for Doris lining out against England. With his inclusion, can our backrow now compete with theirs?

6. James Ryan's first time as captain. Be great to see how he goes.

7. Saw some pundit also mention this, but should we try to get under Itoje's and Sinkler's skin?

8. Is Conway unlucky to be dropped out of the 23?

9. VdF going thru a poor run of form at the moment. Given his skill set, he's probably unlikely to get the bench back-row slot, so he might have a hard time getting back into the team?

10. Is Courtney Lawes injured? Thought he'd be an option for England, even possibly at 6, which EJ seems to like against us.

3&8
If Conway was dropped for Daly or Keenan or even Stockdale back at 11 Lowe at 14 I would say fair enough
But Earls is 33 year old winger.
Probably training the house down as per usual but he is a short term replacement.
What’s worse is that England will target him again and again down Johnny May’s side. Just like 2019.
We gain nothing with him for this nothing game or beyond.

OneLungDavy

CMcsporty wrote: »

3&8
If Conway was dropped for Daly or Keenan or even Stockdale back at 11 Lowe at 14 I would say fair enough
But Earls is 33 year old winger.
Probably training the house down as per usual but he is a short term replacement.
What’s worse is that England will target him again and again down Johnny May’s side. Just like 2019.
We gain nothing with him for this nothing game or beyond.

How do you know they 'targeted' him? I hope you have some good evidence outside of him misreading that pass.

OneLungDavy

aloooof wrote: »

Nope. Here's a few things, just about this game at the weekend, that are infinitely more interesting than any residency conversation imo:

1. Healy and Porter are up against 2 of the front row that got the better of them in the QF v Saracens. How will they fair this time out?

2. England are playing JJ on the wing against us again. Isn't he nominally a centre? Hopefully there are some positional things we can exploit there.

3. In that regard, Ross Byrne's cross field kicks could come in very handy. Hopefully JGP's snappier service allows him to play that bit flatter as well.

4. England with Farrell, Daly and Slade; how do we negate their kicking game? (We even saw Kruis put in a grubber in the 6 Nations, I believe).

5. First time for Doris lining out against England. With his inclusion, can our backrow now compete with theirs?

6. James Ryan's first time as captain. Be great to see how he goes.

7. Saw some pundit also mention this, but should we try to get under Itoje's and Sinkler's skin?

8. Is Conway unlucky to be dropped out of the 23?

9. VdF going thru a poor run of form at the moment. Given his skill set, he's probably unlikely to get the bench back-row slot, so he might have a hard time getting back into the team?

10. Is Courtney Lawes injured? Thought he'd be an option for England, even possibly at 6, which EJ seems to like against us.

7. I don't think Itoje is wind-up material, he usually seems quite measured and self-assured. Farrell on the other hand, I'd call him every name under the sun. He's a penalty machine as it is without even counting the fact he's always one high tackle away from a red.

CMcsporty

OneLungDavy wrote: »

How do you know they 'targeted' him? I hope you have some good evidence outside of him misreading that pass.

How do you not know they targeted him?!

If you remember the game you should remember he had to get taken off injured.
Without question England targeted him.

Farrell kicks it directly to Earls from kick off
Then the misread which lead to Mays try in the 2nd min
Then the box kick over his head into the 22 when he didn’t drop back for Kearney
Followed by Farrell dropping a garryowen on him which was won by May
Then the next restart down his wing
Then another box kick on to Earls where he was flattened by Curry.

That’s just the first 15 mins

Then another box kick direct to Earls where he was flattened by Itoje

I could go on if you need more evidence?

thomond2006

aloooof wrote: »

Nope. Here's a few things, just about this game at the weekend, that are infinitely more interesting than any residency conversation imo:

11. This is a massive game for Keith Earls. He's just turned 33 and at that age and with others pushing for spots he's going to need to perform to justify keeping him in the side. He's very unlikely to be at the next RWC so his selection is very much a 'win now' call.

CMcsporty

Next WC?
He’s finished as an international winger now.

thomond2006

CMcsporty wrote: »

Next WC?
He’s finished as an international winger now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MRmxfLuNto

CMcsporty

Hilarious!
Trimble, Bowe all done by the time they were 33
Earls is no different

Dog Botherer

CMcsporty wrote: »

Hilarious!
Trimble, Bowe all done by the time they were 33
Earls is no different

yes he is.

thomond2006

CMcsporty wrote: »

Hilarious!
Trimble, Bowe all done by the time they were 33
Earls is no different

ionadnapokot

CMcsporty wrote: »

Hilarious!
Trimble, Bowe all done by the time they were 33
Earls is no different

its a good point
and a retrograde selection picking him
im biased though! I gave up on Earl in 2011!
he proved me wrong in 2018!
he's been getting rag dolled since then

Dog Botherer

i think he is a speedy little boy who will score 2(two) tries tomorrow

ionadnapokot

Dog Botherer wrote: »

i think he is a speedy little boy who will score 2(two) tries tomorrow

whens the last time he's done that for Ireland? 2017?