Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan

Donnielighto wrote: »

Left out the word team, took me a sec to figure that one out looking at it. Corrected now.

I thought Cooney and blade were on better form than Murray and McGrath from Christmas onwards, would have liked to have seen one of those getting tried out. Not to say they should have started but we had more than 3 sh available.

It kind of going in circles now


So Marmion was the one everyone wanted but now he wasn't the form 9 in Ireland so we are talking about Cooney and Blade?

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Completely agree with this.

I remember seeing an interview with Schmidt in the early days of his Irish tenure, where he was at a schools underage training session, and he was challenging the players to take it as flat and as late to the line as possible during a drill. I'm hopeful we'll continue to see the influence Schmidt has had on Irish rugby long after his departure.

That the point and it was made by Fla today....stop trying to train a 25 year old and get them when they are 10 year olds....


People saying rugby is worse off now after Joe are silly. The likes of Larmour etc have come up on his watch and he has set in place the skills at a lower level which will see the stars of the future.

Danthemanhere

It's vital that we move on from Joeball, it has stifled the development of many of our talented players. They're scared to make a line break ffs! Our exciting players need freedom to express themselves, not be stuck in straight jackets like they have been under Schmidt.

ClanofLams

Saying the players don’t have the skill set to play attacking rugby is a bit of a cop out I think. Look at the difference between Bundee Aki playing for Connacht and Ireland. Have seen him tear backlines (including Heineken Cup) apart with offloads and no look passes. Likewise Robbie Henshaw, look at try in Connachts win over Toulouse in France where as a 19 year old he gave an unbelievable offload to Fionn Carr before Marmions try in the corner. It’s something he would never do these days. I obviously know Connacht players best but I’m sure other posters can specify similar skill from other provincial players.

Schmidt decided the most effective game plan at international level was one which pressurised opposing teams and sought to minimise mistakes as much as possible by limiting any sort of risks in attack. It worked very well for most of his reign and we enjoyed an unbelievable 2018. He gets the credit for that but when teams caught up to his plans in 2019 he also gets blame.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

Saying the players don’t have the skill set to play attacking rugby is a bit of a cop out I think. Look at the difference between Bundee Aki playing for Connacht and Ireland. Have seen him tear backlines (including Heineken Cup) apart with offloads and no look passes. Likewise Robbie Henshaw, look at try in Connachts win over Toulouse in France where as a 19 year old he gave an unbelievable offload to Fionn Carr before Marmions try in the corner. It’s something he would never do these days. I obviously know Connacht players best but I’m sure other posters can specify similar skill from other provincial players.

Schmidt decided the most effective game plan at international level was one which pressurised opposing teams and sought to minimise mistakes as much as possible by limiting any sort of risks in attack. It worked very well for most of his reign and we enjoyed an unbelievable 2018. He gets the credit for that but when teams caught up to his plans in 2019 he also gets blame.

Yeah I agree with this

ClanofLams

Leaving aside the debate about who should have been number 2 behind Murray, whoever was should have started in Cardiff. Himself and Sexton had a poor six nations, it should have been made clear no-one was guaranteed their spot on the team. Carty was covering ten and given his limited experience not starting him is understandable (though he still should have been on much earlier) but Murray should have been on the bench.

None of the other options were close to Murray in the first six months of 2018, since then that unfortunately hasn’t been the case at all.

Burkie1203

ClanofLams wrote: »

Leaving aside the debate about who should have been number 2 behind Murray, whoever was should have started in Cardiff. Himself and Sexton had a poor six nations, it should have been made clear no-one was guaranteed their spot on the team. Carty was covering ten and given his limited experience not starting him is understandable (though he still should have been on much earlier) but Murray should have been on the bench.

None of the other options were close to Murray in the first six months of 2018, since then that unfortunately hasn’t been the case at all.

I believe the Wales game in March sent out the wrong message to the team. Dropping 3 or 4 players to send a message might have provided a much needed edge to how players prepared and played

Niallof9

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A lot of people are calling for Ireland to play a more expansive game moving the ball at pace. I don't think that the current Irish players have the skills to do this. Look at the handling in the last game and the whole RWC. Simple passes were being dropped or poorly thrown. Ball security was poor. Its something that needs to be taught and worked on earlier. International level is too late. It needs to be drilled into players at a much younger age and then worked on and improved at every level through out there career. Same with off-loading. It needs to be instinctive and not a thought process.

I have never been involved with rugby at any level in Ireland so I am speculating that skills training doesn't get a lot of focus. Maybe it does and the players are just really crap at it. I remember doing skills games and drills as part of our warm up for every training and a lot of times doing a handling drill at the end of training when we were knackered to make sure that our standards stayed high even when exhausted.

It took Pat Lam 3 years (I think) to get the Connacht players skills to the level that they could execute his game plan and he was working with them every day. There's no way an international coach can do that.

Yeah its not as good as New Zealand. That is a given. But the lads do have good core skills. We see it Provincially. I was there the days when Sexton was introducing loop plays up in Marys AIL etc.(actually the exact same famous loop move) We could do basics but the main stuff was always fitness work and shadow play etc.

Ringrose and some of those guys at that age have been doing stuff at a young age. Ringrose is 23, in 2009 i'd imagine he had much better training than Sexton did when we were 13 (i was a year ahead), like at 13 we did the whole rucking as 8 thing, no way that was a thing in 2009 with the trickle down effect.

Like everything in Ireland we are slowly catching up. Its taken decades to get to this point.

I remember talking to one of Ireland's analysts and he was shocked by the NZ under 20's warm up how fast they did the usual passing drill. I was like how can you be shocked? You can see it on youtube in simple stuff. Take tippe i've seen the all blacks play tip/touch but go to deck and pop pass to the person recieving. That has nothing to do with genetics.

We can definitely offload.

We used to do games where we'd play with tennis balls. The all blacks also do this.

Its just we've had coaches, apart from Gatland who played by the numbers rugby.

There's no way Japan have better core skills than the Irish lads. Thats where the argument falls apart.

Joseph would come in and have us do it. Connacht is a bad example as they are the weakest province. Lam wouldn't take 3 years for Leinster.

Its also a mistrust issue. I can'r count the number of times in club rugby i've heard stop offloading, hold the ball. Why, we've just made 40 metres? and there's no reason for it. Quinlan today talking about weather, i played one game in the last two years in soaking wet weather.

I know what your saying though. There's truth to it but i just hate Irish people running us down (i know your not either Irish or running us down). If we can play hurling we definitely have inate skills. We are a sporting nation who often shoot ourselves in the foot. Going on the piss in the past, lack of facilities, fairweather fans, supporting English teams etc.

Things are changing and now is not the time for excuses when we are on the cusp of something great...in rugby, soccer, olympics. I know for a fact Andy Farrell doesn't think like this so even tho im skeptical he can turn it around, he has that belief. I always think Joe distrusted the Irish. Like no way he has NZ play that way.

Burkie1203

ClanofLams wrote: »

Leaving aside the debate about who should have been number 2 behind Murray, whoever was should have started in Cardiff. Himself and Sexton had a poor six nations, it should have been made clear no-one was guaranteed their spot on the team. Carty was covering ten and given his limited experience not starting him is understandable (though he still should have been on much earlier) but Murray should have been on the bench.

None of the other options were close to Murray in the first six months of 2018, since then that unfortunately hasn’t been the case at all.

I believe the Wales game in March sent out the wrong message to the team. Dropping 3 or 4 players to send a message might have provided a much needed edge to how players prepared and played

jacothelad

blinding wrote: »

Why was Marmion or Cooney not playing for Leinster for the last two years or at least the last year .

I suspect that the blind answer to that is that they play for other teams..........;)

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I believe the Wales game in March sent out the wrong message to the team. Dropping 3 or 4 players to send a message might have provided a much needed edge to how players prepared and played

Before the game kicked off we could have won the 6 nations. We had just had the best display the previous week against France. Both Murray and Sexton played well.....


England was poor
Scotland was ok

Italy was poor(loads of players dropped)

France was good
Wales.....


So based on that starting the Welsh match both Murray and Sexton looked like they had finally played to form, it was the last match for a number of month. Carbery wasn't fit. Marmion wasn't fit.....

P.S I am not saying Joe done everything right but some of the stuff on here is just forgetting the facts to make a point....if anything after the French game most people wanted Sexton/Murray starting so they could hopefully fully regain their form.

jackal

Japan seem to be able to pass the ball well, offload well, run nice lines, seek space instead of contact.

I don't buy the argument that Ireland don't have the skills because we are not New Zealand.

jacothelad

blinding wrote: »

Marmion should have been moved to Leinster to get higher level playing time . McGrath was not good enough to put pressure on Murray .

Do you mean kidnapped and hauled to Dublin against his will? Why on Earth do you think Leinster or indeed any team should have the right to have players 'brought' to them? Players may move when it suits them...such as Cronin and Henshaw but no one is 'brought'. Your sense of entitlement is bizarre.

Niallof9

jackal wrote: »

Japan seem to be able to pass the ball well, offload well, run nice lines, seek space instead of contact.

I don't buy the argument that Ireland don't have the skills because we are not New Zealand.

Exactly it falls apart there. They weren't playing rugby at ten. Also even if they did just "hothouse" their talent for 240 days it shows it can be done and age has nothing to do with it.

We need to stop with this ****e. We're talking ourselves into the ground and going backwards...the players, coaches do not think like this. Flannery can say it al he likes...he was **** for Munster as a coach.

Irish rugby is extremely healthy skill wise, fitness wise, facilties..its taken decades. We failed badly but its nowhere near the Lens or 07 debacle.

Look at somebody like Penny. Was a freak in school like Ryan and now playing at 19 for Leinster. Nobody bats an eyelid its the new normal

Our skills fell apart because of pressure, the might of NZ who we weren't meant to face and because Joe became uncertain in how he wanted to play as shown by the way we played against Japan. We still have work to do of course.

blinding

jacothelad wrote: »

Do you mean kidnapped and hauled to Dublin against his will? Why on Earth do you think Leinster or indeed any team should have the right to have players 'brought' to them? Players may move when it suits them...such as Cronin and Henshaw but no one is 'brought'. Your sense of entitlement is bizarre.

Carberry was sent to “ Munster “ The IRFU will do absolutely anything when it suits ! !

jacothelad

blinding wrote: »

Carberry was sent to “ Munster “ The IRFU will do absolutely anything when it suits ! !

He wasn't 'sent' to Munster. He is not a slave. He was offered the chance to end his Leinster deal and move. It was up to him and he took the opportunity. Provinces are not permitted to poach each others' contracted players. Getting players to move is a good idea if there is a log jam but it is entirely up to the players concerned. Leinster's production line of players is wonderful but they can't use them all. There simply isn't the room for them all. You seem to be of the idea that Leinster have the right to plunder the other sides of players to the detriment of the other teams.

Shefwedfan

jacothelad wrote: »

He wasn't 'sent' to Munster. He is not a slave. He was offered the chance to end his Leinster deal and move. It was up to him and he took the opportunity. Provinces are not permitted to poach each others' contracted players. Getting players to move is a good idea if there is a log jam but it is entirely up to the players concerned. Leinster's production line of players is wonderful but they can't use them all. There simply isn't the room for them all. You seem to be of the idea that Leinster have the right to plunder the other sides of players to the detriment of the other teams.

Players do have to move around and yes some Leinster players should move.....I have always said the same and the moves of Nordi, McGrath and other players in the future has to happened

the issue is Carbery got moved from 15 to play 10 at another club. Leinster didn't have a supply of 15's and have ended up resigning R kearney when really he should have moved on.

In hindsight now Carbery should have been left at Leinster to progress as a 15. At the time he moved to Munster they have 4 or 5 other 10's on the books? all qualified for Ireland

The move of Carbery to Munster has also pushed a homegrown 10 in Munster out of the club.

It was the wrong move at the time and it is still the wrong move today

clsmooth

ClanofLams wrote: »

Had O’Mahony and Stockdale/Earls done enough to justify selection on form over the last four months?

Was Larmour playing better than Kearney?

Schmidt is the best coach Ireland have ever had. But it seems like on this board only two extremes are allowed, he was a total failure or an infallible genius. The truth usually lies between extremes.

Probably not but don’t think it would have made any difference to the result. And if Earls, Kearney, Stockdale and POM has been dropped and we got beaten, he would have been slaughtered even more for dropping the leadership group

Foxtrol

ClanofLams wrote: »

Leaving aside the debate about who should have been number 2 behind Murray, whoever was should have started in Cardiff. Himself and Sexton had a poor six nations, it should have been made clear no-one was guaranteed their spot on the team. Carty was covering ten and given his limited experience not starting him is understandable (though he still should have been on much earlier) but Murray should have been on the bench.

None of the other options were close to Murray in the first six months of 2018, since then that unfortunately hasn’t been the case at all.

Post 6 nations the next real game time Murray and Sexton were going to have together was at the WC. There is an element of playing a player back into form, that in hindsight was clearly the wrong decision with Murray.

However, the blame can be put as much at the feet of the other players for not helping the issue. I'd argue none of the guys that weren't brought in for Murray ever reached consistently close to the heights that Murray has achieved when on form.

I think it is a lot easier to make 'bold' selection calls for the SH teams that are going straight from their championship into the WC.

ClanofLams

clsmooth wrote: »

Probably not but don’t think it would have made any difference to the result. And if Earls, Kearney, Stockdale and POM has been dropped and we got beaten, he would have been slaughtered even more for dropping the leadership group

No I don’t think it would have made any difference last week. But players have been locked in for the last year at least. What impact has allowing that culture of ‘undroppable’ players to develop? How motivated are guys in training sessions if they it doesn’t matter what they do?

At some stage a few of those undroppable players needed to get the bench. Against Italy doesn’t count, that’s clearly a second tier type game.

ClanofLams

Foxtrol wrote: »

Post 6 nations the next real game time Murray and Sexton were going to have together was at the WC. There is an element of playing a player back into form, that in hindsight was clearly the wrong decision with Murray.

However, the blame can be put as much at the feet of the other players for not helping the issue. I'd argue none of the guys that weren't brought in for Murray ever reached consistently close to the heights that Murray has achieved when on form.

I think it is a lot easier to make 'bold' selection calls for the SH teams that are going straight from their championship into the WC.

What chances did they get? Marmion delivered an excellent performance against New Zealand. Not a match for Murray at his peak but superior to 2019 Murray.

Edit - Also that line about playing guys into form was used as justification by Schmidt for leaving Sexton on for 72 minutes in Cardiff. I said at the time it was ridiculous stuff. Not trying to be overly harsh on Sexton who is our greatest ten ever but he was horrendous that day. Six nations games aren’t for that, he should have been off 25 minutes earlier.

penybont exile

jacothelad wrote: »

Perhaps I should have made it simpler for you. Ireland got hosed by playing like drains against the team that will win the RWC. Wales were getting beaten comfortably by a crap France team and lucked out by the vicious actions of a cretin. The point I was making was that blind luck has a huge part to play in the RWC. The draw you get. The actions of a ref. Without Sebastien Vahaamahin's thuggery Wales would be out also. In the last RWC Scotland lost out because of the decision of a ref, France were robbed of a World Cup win by the cowardly actions of the same ref.

I made it very simple for you ..... so I'm giving up on this one. You are doing yourself a disservice.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

What chances did they get? Marmion delivered an excellent performance against New Zealand. Not a match for Murray at his peak but superior to 2019 Murray.

Edit - Also that line about playing guys into form was used as justification by Schmidt for leaving Sexton on for 72 minutes in Cardiff. I said at the time it was ridiculous stuff. Not trying to be overly harsh on Sexton who is our greatest ten ever but he was horrendous that day. Six nations games aren’t for that, he should have been off 25 minutes earlier.

Marmion was injured for the 6 nations

Foxtrol

ClanofLams wrote: »

What chances did they get? Marmion delivered an excellent performance against New Zealand. Not a match for Murray at his peak but superior to 2019 Murray.

Edit - Also that line about playing guys into form was used as justification by Schmidt for leaving Sexton on for 72 minutes in Cardiff. I said at the time it was ridiculous stuff. Not trying to be overly harsh on Sexton who is our greatest ten ever but he was horrendous that day. Six nations games aren’t for that, he should have been off 25 minutes earlier.

A one off game isn't 'consistently' that I mentioned in my post.

We saw numerous examples of young players who showed ceilings close to or above incumbents get chances to take a jersey and hold onto it, through consistent form for their provinces and when they opportunities with Ireland. None of the SHs that you wanted to replace Murray showed similar over the last few years.

On your edit, a coach can't win from the bar some are setting. The WC is the key, if not the only, element to which their graded on whether they are a success but the 6 nations shouldn't be used to build towards it.

ClanofLams

Foxtrol wrote: »

A one off game isn't 'consistently' that I mentioned in my post.

We saw numerous examples of young players who showed ceilings close to or above incumbents get chances to take a jersey and hold onto it, through consistent form for their provinces and when they opportunities with Ireland. None of the SHs that you wanted to replace Murray showed similar over the last few years.

On your edit, a coach can't win from the bar some are setting. The WC is the key, if not the only, element to which their graded on whether they are a success but the 6 nations shouldn't be used to build towards it.

The only chances he got for Ireland starting in big games, England and New Zealand, Marmion delivered excellent performances. He can’t consistently display test level form without opportunities. I’m not arguing Murray is the best player at peak form but he hasn’t hit peak form in 18 months.

On Sexton, 25 minutes in Cardiff was going to make zero difference to his World Cup performances six months later. Schmidt left him on out of loyalty I would argue, which is perfectly understandable from a human standpoint given a decade working with the guy but completely the wrong message to send out to a squad. That’s a time you have to be ruthless, not delivering, you’re off, doesn’t matter who you are.

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Marmion was injured for the 6 nations

He was for the start of it, he was in the squad for the last two games. It doesn’t really matter which player it was or who was the sub, it’s about consistently picking the same XV regardless of performance, for all the talk of training performances, etc, Schmidt hasn’t dropped one of the guaranteed starters in a long time.

The Lost Sheep

odyboody wrote: »

IRFU need to look at what they are looking for. Do they stick with the current win the 6 nations / Grand slam at all costs, or should they take the longer view of getting a team prepared for the next world cup. There were too many picked on past glories, be that they were suffering lack of form or returning from injury they shouldn't have gone in the hope they would come right. Henshaw for example is a fantastic player, he had no form going into the world cup because of injury and it showed.

they do have aims for better prep for world cup and to do better. Why then had schmidt capped so many players, looked at so many players while maintaining levels of success.

Danthemanhere wrote: »

It's vital that we move on from Joeball, it has stifled the development of many of our talented players. They're scared to make a line break ffs! Our exciting players need freedom to express themselves, not be stuck in straight jackets like they have been under Schmidt.

its also vital we move on from naming how we play after name of our coach and just adding 'ball'.

Foxtrol

ClanofLams wrote: »

The only chances he got for Ireland starting in big games, England and New Zealand, Marmion delivered excellent performances. He can’t consistently display test level form without opportunities. I’m not arguing Murray is the best player at peak form but he hasn’t hit peak form in 18 months.

Joe had the option to use the time to try to get a 29 year old player, not some guy on the brink of retiring, back to the heights of the form in his last real gametime with his starting OH or bench him and turn to a 27 year old that has never made it to that level, you admitted that peak Marmion has never matched peak Murray.

On Sexton, 25 minutes in Cardiff was going to make zero difference to his World Cup performances six months later. Schmidt left him on out of loyalty I would argue, which is perfectly understandable from a human standpoint given a decade working with the guy but completely the wrong message to send out to a squad. That’s a time you have to be ruthless, not delivering, you’re off, doesn’t matter who you are.

You can't have it both ways with everything. The WC is either the focus and the 6 nations should be used as a building block or it doesn't. Game time in the 6 nations either matters or it doesn't.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

He was for the start of it, he was in the squad for the last two games. It doesn’t really matter which player it was or who was the sub, it’s about consistently picking the same XV regardless of performance, for all the talk of training performances, etc, Schmidt hasn’t dropped one of the guaranteed starters in a long time.

Your going in circles, you keep asking for players to get dropped but no alternative provided

Is the plan just to drop players and put inferior players just to shake it up?

It was recognised that over the last 4 years Ireland has tested more players than ever before, build up a squad with players who all had significant international experience

So Marmion who hadn’t played from November was going to come in and Joe would pick him for a potential 6 nations decider in Wales?

Marmion was in the squad for 4 years and never moved Murray from a starting role, I know your a Connacht fan but that has to suggest something to you....When Joe did shake it up everyone went nuts because he dropped Marmion.

ClanofLams

Foxtrol wrote: »

Joe had the option to use the time to try to get a 29 year old player, not some guy on the brink of retiring, back to the heights of the form in his last real gametime with his starting OH or bench him and turn to a 27 year old that has never made it to that level, you admitted that peak Marmion has never matched peak Murray.



You can't have it both ways with everything. The WC is either the focus and the 6 nations should be used as a building block or it doesn't. Game time in the 6 nations either matters or it doesn't.

I’m fine with using the six nations as a building block in World Cup years, I think success should be a priority every other year, for all the talk of four year plans that’s pretty much what NZ do, didn’t win tri nations/rugby championship in ‘11 ‘15 or ‘19 but look likely to win three world cups.

That’s really besides the point though. I’m not sure if I’m not being clear or not but it’s about allowing players to become ‘undroppable’. Squads are successful when there’s genuine competition for places, again look at NZ Ioane and Ben Smith gone, newcomers Reece and Bridge who debuted a couple of months ago in.

You can’t have a starting XV locked in a year out; it’s nonsense. Leaving Sexton on for seventy minutes, continuously playing Murray/O’Mahony and others who were out of form, etc. You don’t have to necessarily keep them out of the side but you need to make clear performances matter and that spots aren’t guaranteed.