Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof

I think part of the reason you attract so much criticism on here, Niallof9, is that you absolutely hammer Farrell, yet you actually seem to agree with a fair amount of what he's been doing:

Niallof9 wrote: »

Farrell has probably been the quickest of any coach to do it en masse.
...
Its not just Casey and harry Byrne (who are probably still too raw)

Niallof9 wrote: »

We tend to back a player and then its harder to get off the team than on it hence the huge individual cap numbers our players rack up. We're seeing the same with Ryan (albeit deserved). Healy is the opposite now at this stage. A legend who needs to be challenged for his own sake which is where EOS comes in,so fair enough.

Niallof9 wrote: »

so you have a choice play an international against a hardened team, even ten minutes or an 80 in a pro 14. there's an argument that yes the latter is better for development.

And, despite that, you then occasionally go full bore with crap like the following:

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah and i'd enjoy a coach that had a set of balls to play people who are performing.

You do have the crux of a point, but the hyperbole and contradictions don't do you any favours.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't Ringrose get his international debut when he was 21 and start all 6 nations games at 22?

He was ready for that summers tour, thats my point. and the argument at the time was he wasn't ready. He was. Ultimately it didn't matter and people can say the same this time. But personally i think they're kidding themselves.

Niallof9

Niallof9 wrote: »

jesus do any of you lads read some of the other views ...who is saying anything about throwing out a load of young lads? Anyway, Some of these lads fall into the exact same bracket as Doris and Kelleher, elite young talent.

If Murray is selected tomorrow, anybody defending it, is talking cack and moving the goalposts significantly.

I and many others see absolutely no point picking an experienced side against Georgia. As i said Marmion, Dillane, McCloskey all deserve a shot. baird, Cooney are deeply questionable omissions. Nobody is talking about picking craig Casey at 9 and H/Byrne at ten.

There will be a backbone of experienced players starting against Georgia. Murray could easily be one of them.

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

There will be a backbone of experienced players starting against Georgia. Murray could easily be one of them.

And there is nobody on this forum who would have said that would be the case. There is absolutely no point in it happening. Its a shocking call, there's no two ways about it. He might as well select Healy again and bring back Kearney its that conservative.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

He was ready for that summers tour, thats my point. and the argument at the time was he wasn't ready. He was. Ultimately it didn't matter and people can say the same this time. But personally i think they're kidding themselves.

The 2016 Summer tour? Payne didn't start any of those 3 Tests at 13 tho., so it wasn't Payne keeping him out of the team. He started 2 at FB.

sydthebeat

If Billy Burns starts, then i would have absolutely no problem with Murray starting alongside him.

This hyperbolic rag losing over one selection is just silly when you need to take a holistic view of the whole selection (which hasn't even bloody happened yet)

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

The 2016 Summer tour? Payne didn't start any of those 3 Tests at 13 tho., so it wasn't Payne keeping him out of the team. He started 2 at FB.

Look you can go all the way back if you want to read it. Ringrose was ready that summer block of games. There was people on here saying he wasn't ready, better in the league. He was ready a few months later, miraculously enough.

Niallof9

Niallof9 wrote: »

And there is nobody on this forum who would have said that would be the case. There is absolutely no point in it happening. Its a shocking call, there's no two ways about it. He might as well select Healy again and bring back Kearney its that conservative.

Okay well turns out there is two ways about it; I think you're wrong. There's no point sticking out a wolfhounds team. There will be a backbone of experience.

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay well turns out there is two ways about it; I think you're wrong. There's no point sticking out a wolfhounds team. There will be a backbone of experience.

Yes of course. Cooney or Marmion = Wolfhounds.

anyway i'll leave it there. i think people are kidding themselves here.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Look you can go all the way back if you want to read it. Ringrose was ready that summer block of games. There was people on here saying he wasn't ready, better in the league. He was ready a few months later, miraculously enough.

Fair enough. I don't think we suffered enormously from not bringing him thru earlier tho, based on what we achieved in 2016.

irishbucsfan

Throwing out caps for the sake of it is not the most valuable way to develop the team. Even Gatland when he picked his random teenagers did it sparingly. Very often, it was wasted development time (Tom Prydie making his Wales debut 2 years before the u20s debut for example).

We're developing players at a pretty good rate this year, and there's already a fairly young cohort of players there to choose from.

I'd rather see them isolate positions where we specifically need solutions and bring players in there to play with experienced partners, because lets not forget you often learn more from the guys you're playing alongside than you do from the opposition. I'd also be keen to see them sort the line out before the next game.

Niallof9

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yes of course. Cooney or Marmion = Wolfhounds.

anyway i'll leave it there. i think people are kidding themselves here.

I've never argued specifically for Murray. Murray could be there if there is inexperience all around him. Putting out a team without an experienced backbone would be a pointless match akin to wolfhounds. I'm repeating myself.

Brief_Lives

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nltAi6TSKrs

the boys make some good points...
we were missing... Furlong, Beirne, Leavy, Sexton, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour, Addison...

Niallof9

anyway all we can say is there is a block of very good talent, as good as Kelleher and Doris, coming through. its hardly a shock that some would have them involved. if these lads aren't the talent we think they are we are in big trouble. personally i think we might as well find out now in an environment without pressure, money, crowds, seedings all the usual excuses. i never said these guys are to start. he could have called them in even for match day or whatever, absolutely no harm. i probably threw out the whole shocking as i was quite angry. on relfection fine it doesn't really matter, i just don't get it sometimes. There's no question some of the calls make little sense. Baird for example. If Murray is selected to start its also baffling and something nobody on this forum would have predicted or wanted a few months back.

that segment of players missing is significant. I'd discount Sexton cause we need to move on now and Addison hasn't proved anything.

People need to stop comparing Ireland to wales or whoever. Each system is different. We're naturally getting a new crop of players coming through. Wales have tried loads of young players. With such a poor provincial system in Wales of course its going to turn out differently. Personally i favor NZ's and Australias approach to these matters. Anyway its nowhere near as bad as it was. LArmour, Ryan Ringrose, Furlong, Doris, Kelleher all backed young. Its nearly written in stone that 7 or 8 of these lads left out will be internationals next season. Casey has been unreal. Coombes looks like that big bruiser we need. Baird has that O'Brien zip. harry looks so much better than his brother. All the good parts of Ross' game as well. Larmour to come back, Kelleher will settle. Doris has that Heaslip look about him. Its far from doom and gloom that maybe i'm giving off, i'm quite optimistic. I do think we need more edge to this team though and i'd just like it all to happen sooner. But maybe Farrell sees the development pathway in a more a structured sense and being a fan of Jurgen Klopp and how he deals with youth i take the points on board. But the crap Easterbuy was coming out with today is nonsense and the selection of Murray will be nonsense as well.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

People need to stop comparing Ireland to wales or whoever. Each system is different. We're naturally getting a new crop of players coming through. Wales have tried loads of young players. With such a poor provincial system in Wales of course its going to turn out differently.

I don't want to labour the point but, for example, just over 2 weeks ago, you weren't willing to give others this benefit of the doubt:

Niallof9 wrote: »

Penny, Lyttle, Harry Byrne, Lowry, JJ, Casey, Hume, and a one or two others would be live options for any other 6 nations squad in a tournament like this. Look at Scotland, Wales and Englands squad for this. its a joke really and it smacks of the IRFU or AF going all out to win a nothing tournament to prove something.

In any case, I think the rest of your post was all pretty reasonable tbh (I suspect if you had said as much from the outset, I don't think you'd have gotten such a backlash). I'd particularly agree with the following:

Niallof9 wrote: »

Anyway its nowhere near as bad as it was. LArmour, Ryan Ringrose, Furlong, Doris, Kelleher all backed young.
...
Its far from doom and gloom that maybe i'm giving off, i'm quite optimistic.

Yeah_Right

Niallof9 wrote: »

People need to stop comparing Ireland to wales or whoever. Each system is different. .... Personally i favor NZ's and Australias approach to these matters.

Tell me more about comparing/not comparing Ireland to other countries

Dog Botherer

i would absolutely not be favorably comparing Australia’s rugby union set up to basically anyone. maybe Samoa.

Niallof9

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Tell me more about comparing/not comparing Ireland to other countries

I said i favor their approach. I didn't compare it at all. AS a rugby person i will always back players picked on form and potential. To many on here form didn't exist or doesn't exist, which is quite clearly a joke of a position to take. People are using Wales as an example of why Ireland don't need to change. Anyway there's plenty of people on here who are happy with the status quo and always have been. Questioned Ringrose, Larmour, now people going on about Kelleher. It will never change and there's no point trying to argue with some of you, its such a chore. The riposte is where were you in 2018. Where were you in 2019 when Farrell and Easterbuy were heavily involved in the calamity.

It doesn't matter cause Baird et al will all be internationals in 12 months time so i suppose everyone is just wasting their time. As i have conceded Farrell is the most progressive coach it seems so far. I just see this as a massively wasted opportunity for no reason other than to say you have to earn your stripes.. Cooney, McCloskey, Dillane i'm sure would all disagree on that one. Further to that i do think he and the coaching team are out of their depth, but the two aren't necessarily connected. In the future he'll possibly be a great head coach but we shouldn't have risked it on an inexperienced first timer.

thomond2006

Have a KitKat.

Niallof9

whatever. I'd be fairly certain i'll be proved right, in time. No doubt many of you will be saying give it time...and we'll be crying again come 2023, wondering where it all went wrong.

He needs to keep the core of the team now for this Georgia game, now that he's backed the you need to earn your stripes line. Marmion, Dillane, Daly, McCloskey all need to start. Bring Stockdale in for some redemption. Billy Burns at ten.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

To many on here form didn't exist or doesn't exist, which is quite clearly a joke of a position to take.

Many? I've been posting here a number of years and I can't recall anyone taking that position.

Do you have any examples to back that up?

bilston

He can still pick a pretty inexperienced team for Georgia...for example

15 Shane Daly
14 James Lowe
13 Chris Farrell
12 Stuart McCloskey
11 Jacob Stockdale
10 Billy Burns
9 Conor Murray
1 Eric O'Sullivan
2 Ronan Kelleher
3 John Ryan
4 Iain Henderson
5 Ultan Dillane
6 CJ Stander
7 Will Connors
8 Caelan Doris

Niallof9

some of the older lads used to take that line. I completely reject it. And it doesn't matter Schmidt even referenced form and Farrell is clearly using it for the most part.

Moving it on what side do we expect? surely Burns has to start.

Niallof9

bilston wrote: »

He can still pick a pretty inexperienced team for Georgia...for example

15 Shane Daly
14 James Lowe
13 Chris Farrell
12 Stuart McCloskey
11 Jacob Stockdale
10 Billy Burns
9 Conor Murray
1 Eric O'Sullivan
2 Ronan Kelleher
3 John Ryan
4 Iain Henderson
5 Ultan Dillane
6 CJ Stander
7 Will Connors
8 Caelan Doris

Yeah now that he's gone with it, its a fair side apart from at 9 if we're being honest about what we wanted from this block of games etc. But it looks likely Murray will start. Either way Ireland with an inexperienced or experienced team are putting at least 30 points on these lads. So we learn nothing anyway. Look whos to say he won't use an Italian game for something, or Scotland. Meaningful, tough games but games where you could learn a thing or two.

Yeah_Right

Niallof9 wrote: »

I said i favor their approach. I didn't compare it at all. AS a rugby person i will always back players picked on form and potential. To many on here form didn't exist or doesn't exist, which is quite clearly a joke of a position to take. People are using Wales as an example of why Ireland don't need to change. Anyway there's plenty of people on here who are happy with the status quo and always have been. Questioned Ringrose, Larmour, now people going on about Kelleher. It will never change and there's no point trying to argue with some of you, its such a chore. The riposte is where were you in 2018. Where were you in 2019 when Farrell and Easterbuy were heavily involved in the calamity.

It doesn't matter cause Baird et al will all be internationals in 12 months time so i suppose everyone is just wasting their time. As i have conceded Farrell is the most progressive coach it seems so far. I just see this as a massively wasted opportunity for no reason other than to say you have to earn your stripes.. Cooney, McCloskey, Dillane i'm sure would all disagree on that one. Further to that i do think he and the coaching team are out of their depth, but the two aren't necessarily connected. In the future he'll possibly be a great head coach but we shouldn't have risked it on an inexperienced first timer.

And what is this approach from NZ and Australia that you prefer?
I get why some people would have been questioning whether Ringrose and Larmour were ready for international rugby in their first season. And I think thats fair enough. They were kids in their first season of pro-rugby. For all their talent, they had a lot of development to do before they were going to be ready for test rugby. Didn't Ringrose play most of his first season for Leinster on the wing? I think their progress has been about right.
Do you think that Kelleher, who is obviously talented, still has much to learn and work on?

Isn't Baird just back from an injury lay off? Was it hs second game at the weekend? Who would you have him ahead of in the Irish squad?

Cooney, I agree. I would have had him in the squad ahead of Murray. Dillane and McCloskey have been in and around the Irish squad for 4 years now and just haven't cracked it. Obviously Dillane has had bad injury problems so is probably worth persisting with but there is obviously something about McCloskey that stops him getting game time.

Wegians89

I know he’s injured atm but would Blade not be in line for a cap before Casey? Blade has proven himself over multiple seasons and has played in European games.

Casey probably has a higher ceiling but I think the pair of them could be Ireland’s long term first and second choice 9s, with blade on the bench.

Niallof9

Have a look at the average age of the two teams that played the last tests between NZ and Australia. Depending on his injury i would restore him into the squad.

Ringrose, Larmour adapted quite quickly. Larmour is possibly struggling due to the position question and i think some of the x factor has unfortunately been coached out of him a bit. I don't get it cause its a never ending argument and here we are at it again, even though its a near certainty all of them will be capped within 12 months. Baird, Casey, H.Byrne, Lowry, maybe Moore, maybe Coombes, You'll never convince me and i will never be able to convince many on here. Thats even before we get to the mainstays of provincial European squads who are never given a shot. And yeah Blade enters the conversation as well. I just don;t think we're at any stage to say Keenan for example is much further ahead than a Blade, Lowry or whomever, but i wouldn't be surprised to see him continue and then in a few months be handed a central contract. and then the circle goes around again.

Dog Botherer

niall my 9 year old is fierce bad for inventing things to be mad about. ye two should form a club.

Niallof9

Dog Botherer wrote: »

niall my 9 year old is fierce bad for inventing things to be mad about. ye two should form a club.

ok sure thing.

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

Have a look at the average age of the two teams that played the last tests between NZ and Australia. Depending on his injury i would restore him into the squad.

Ringrose, Larmour adapted quite quickly. Larmour is possibly struggling due to the position question and i think some of the x factor has unfortunately been coached out of him a bit. I don't get it cause its a never ending argument and here we are at it again, even though its a near certainty all of them will be capped within 12 months. Baird, Casey, H.Byrne, Lowry, maybe Moore, maybe Coombes, You'll never convince me and i will never be able to convince many on here. Thats even before we get to the mainstays of provincial European squads who are never given a shot.

Niall, youre all over the place, youre not even making coherent sentences any more.
what do you mean in the bolded sentence? It really makes no sense.

are you saying that those players will inevitably get capped in the next 12 months, but because they will not be capped against georgia thats a bad thing?

do you give andy farrell any kudos for capping 9 new players in 7 games ??

do you have any consideration that players who are new to international rugby require experience alongside them?
do you consider what england did against georgia to be a waste of a game?

wales gave 3 players their debuts versus georgia, and made 13 changes from the previous week... and were absolute muck. Played a disjointed turgid headless game and the 18 - 0 win did absolutely nothing for a team on a 6 game losing streak.