Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

UAEguy2020

shootermacg wrote: »

Exactly! Farrell was getting crap ball and did very well to clean it up. That game was proof that a wooden ten can easily lose a game for you.

If RB can look good at Leinster, then you'd have to look at the other Leinster 10s in a new light. Likewise JS has struggled against Teams that aren't being beaten up by his pack.

BB and Carty have had to play behind a poor pack, something the Leinster 10s have very little experience with. There's a good argument for giving him his chance.

Funny because the performance at 10 from Byrne is no different to the performance Sexton has served up playing at 10 vs England, only difference is he’s Sexton so doesn’t get picked on as much.

I’m not buying this playing behind dominant pack bull****, if the pack isn’t doninant you play the territory, if you keep doing what you’ve been doing vs England you’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting.

People think SA dominating England physically is what won them the World Cup but what that was built on was beating England at their own kicking game forcing England to have to attack SA which they weren’t comfortable doing, doing so took England out of their comfort zone and had them doubt themselves and once that happened SA started to physically dominate and the rest in history.

In turn, if you can’t beat England up physically you should kick the ball in behind and put them on the back foot like Ireland were doing in the first half until they stopped once the first England try was scored.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Funny because the performance at 10 from Byrne is no different to the performance Sexton has served up playing at 10 vs England, only difference is he’s Sexton so doesn’t get picked on as much.

Na. Sexton plays notably flatter.

shootermacg

There's a good argument for a straight swap with TB replacing Ryan and keeping Roux/Ryan at TH prop. TB is able to run a lineout. I think the balance is currently wrong with Ryan and Roux in the second row.

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

His only competition for 13 is Henshaw.
Using that England game as a barometer for Farrell "taking his opportunities far more accurately" is grossly unfair.

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

Iamabeliever

Buer wrote: »

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

May fainted to go inside cause aki left too much of a gap. I would consider that an overall defensive lapse. A quicker man will always win a foot race.

His held up try although frustrating, you can only put it down to a great defensive play. I would also like to highlight Aki was virtually anonymous against England and the first half against France.

TRC10

Buer wrote: »

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

If you're immediately writing off anyone who has been skinned by Jonny May, then you're writing off a lot of world class players.

Very easy to criticise someone for getting held up but it was excellent defence. Not sure what more he could have done.

Former Former Former

TRC10 wrote: »

If you're immediately writing off anyone who has been skinned by Jonny May, then you're writing off a lot of world class players.

He wasn't skinned by him though, Farrell was exactly where he needed to be to make the tackle, he just didn't execute it.

Farrell is a decent player but once either Henshaw or Ringrose is back, he'll be squad depth again, he's just not at the same level.

CMcsporty

Buer wrote: »

Is it? He had two specific involvements which led to a try being scored and a try not being scored.

I'm not referencing his general play overall which was a symptom of what was happening inside him. Trucking it up in general play is not something I'm going to hold against him.

Missing a tackle on turnover ball which ends up in a try and failing to ground a ball against a single defender is absolutely on him. Those were two key moments which I'd identify as his opportunities to stand out. Killing an attack on turnover ball and scoring a try would be two key moments on both sides of the ball and, when the game reviews happen, you can be sure they're being looked at.

Yes that is a different analysis to the point you were making about gain line.
You were critiquing his performance specifically on the amount of carries and lack of gain line.
That is a gameplan issue and complete system failure.

Thats not on Farrell - so yes that it is grossly unfair.

To your other points about the missed tackle on May - Yes he will rightly put his hand up.
But i would also point out the brilliant piece of footwork by May
I was more concerned with Earls not biting in when May put it under his left arm and then getting scorched.
https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-lineout-twickenham-5275283-Nov2020/ed.

I cant recall the killing the ball incident - when was that?
(i probably missed it because i was so dejected by what Ireland brought to the game)

Buer

TRC10 wrote: »

If you're immediately writing off anyone who has been skinned by Jonny May, then you're writing off a lot of world class players.

Very easy to criticise someone for getting held up but it was excellent defence. Not sure what more he could have done.

He was skinned by a world class attacker. But this is the level he's playing at. He doesn't get a pass because of it; he needs to make those tackles and he was in a perfect position to do so. I very much doubt he's giving himself a pass on it.

What more could he have done for grounding the ball? Probably grounding it, for a start. Slade did excellently but Farrell is a huge man. He was going over the line, face down and was flipped entirely onto his back. The advantage is always with the attacker there. Again, I would imagine Farrell is disappointed with himself there. The hardest part was gathering the bobbling ball.

shootermacg

Buer wrote: »

He was skinned by a world class attacker. But this is the level he's playing at. He doesn't get a pass because of it; he needs to make those tackles and he was in a perfect position to do so. I very much doubt he's giving himself a pass on it.

What more could he have done for grounding the ball? Probably grounding it, for a start. Slade did excellently but Farrell is a huge man. He was going over the line, face down and was flipped entirely onto his back. The advantage is always with the attacker there. Again, I would imagine Farrell is disappointed with himself there. The hardest part was gathering the bobbling ball.

Should we then say that Cian Healy shouldn't be getting held up either?

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

Yes that is a different analysis to the point you were making about gain line.
You were critiquing his performance specifically on the amount of carries and lack of gain line.
That is a gameplan issue and complete system failure.

Thats not on Farrell - so yes that it is grossly unfair.

I wasn't critiquing his performance on his carrying. My point about the gain line was purely in response to the poster who claimed he was one of the few players regularly getting over it and highlighting that this wasn't actually the case. I also acknowledged he was being served poorly by those inside him.

My points regarding opportunities and those two moments were a separately made point.

Buer

shootermacg wrote: »

Should we then say that Cian Healy shouldn't be getting held up either?

I can't recall the specific incident but if Healy was held up in a similar situation then of course he should be grounding it.

shootermacg

Buer wrote: »

I can't recall the specific incident but if Healy was held up in a similar situation then of course he should be grounding it.

Slade isn't a small man either. A lot of people seem to think he's smaller than he actually is. I would say over 100Kg and 6'3 isn't exactly a pushover.

TRC10

Former Former Former wrote: »

He wasn't skinned by him though, Farrell was exactly where he needed to be to make the tackle, he just didn't execute it.

Farrell is a decent player but once either Henshaw or Ringrose is back, he'll be squad depth again, he's just not at the same level.

You realise the two players you have named have both missed tackles which led to tries (Ringrose v Wales 2019, Henshaw v Aus 2018). And both have either been held up over the line or failed to ground the ball (Ringrose v France 2019, Henshaw v NZ 2019)

Buer

shootermacg wrote: »

Slade isn't a small man either. A lot of people seem to think he's smaller than he actually is. I would say over 100Kg and 6'3 isn't exactly a pushover.

I would say over 100kg is also not true. How many websites did you need to consult to find that figure?! :pac:

He's listed as 87kg by the RFU and 96kg by Exeter Chiefs.

CMcsporty

Buer wrote: »

I've seen this raised a few times. Farrell had several solid carries in the second half when we had our purple patch and were making yards. Outside of that, he struggled with ball in hand. He was repeatedly stopped or knocked back. I'm a huge Farrell fan and he was dealing with terrible attacking alignment but I was still disappointed with his production. Normally, he's so powerful that he can force his way over the gain line even with a defender in his face. He had 15 carries for 17m so he certainly wasn't getting over the gain line with any real success.

His two most memorable moments in the game were negative. He was scorched on the outside by May for the second try and he then failed to ground a ball when he was held up by a guy who is 15kg lighter than him.

Farrell is an excellent player but if he has any ambition to break past the trio of centres ahead of him, he's going to need to take his opportunities far more accurately than he did against England.

1st part in bold is grossly unfair.

2nd part in bold is also is. He had 1 Opportunity - He was held up by a guy grabbing his arms. Good defense.
Yes an opportunity missed. Fair point....
But give him a break!

The amount of stick Farrell gets (particularly because he is big) is totally unjustified.

The massive concern is the way Ireland went out to play.
How did they try to utilise him?
By getting a 6ft 4 guy to smash that English defence!
To get him to dive onto grubbers!
Worrying

TomsOnTheRoof

Not looking to start an argument but I'm constantly seeing people claiming Ringrose is world class and I have to disagree. He's an excellent player and is a shining star in Leinster's backline but I can't really think of that many occasions where he's ripped it up in a green jersey. He makes the odd half break and his defence is good but I've yet to see any real consistency in his performances. Now having said that I do believe he should be our starting 13 and he is useful as a second receiver but I think there's definitely an element of people over embellishing his abilities.

Jump_In_Jack

CMcsporty wrote: »

1st part in bold is grossly unfair.

2nd part in bold is also is. He had 1 Opportunity - He was held up by a guy grabbing his arms. Good defense.
Yes an opportunity missed. Fair point....
But give him a break!

The amount of stick Farrell gets (particularly because he is big) is totally unjustified.

The massive concern is the way Ireland went out to play.
How did they try to utilise him?
By getting a 6ft 4 guy to smash that English defence!
To get him to dive onto grubbers!
Worrying

6'3" in every online resource I could find.

theVersatile

15. Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 31 caps
14. Hugo Keenan (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 12 caps
12. Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 3 caps
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 86 caps
10. Billy Burns (UIster) 2 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 85 caps

1. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 13 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 14 caps
3. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 30 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster) 56 caps
5. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 30 caps Captain
6. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 16 caps
7. Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 44 caps

Replacements
16. Dave Heffernan (Buccaneers/Connacht) 4 caps
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 102 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 21 caps
19. Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 14 caps
20. Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 71 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 27 caps
22. Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
23. Shane Daly (Cork Constitution/Munster) uncapped

thomond2006

The team due to the lack of callups mostly picks itself but Earls starting over Daly in a game like this is difficult to understand. There's little to be gained from it.

EOS should be on the bench instead of Healy.

Nitpicking over.

Clegg

Porter is getting flogged.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

15. Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 31 caps
14. Hugo Keenan (UCD/Leinster) 4 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 12 caps
12. Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 3 caps
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 86 caps
10. Billy Burns (UIster) 2 caps
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 85 caps

1. Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 13 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 14 caps
3. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 30 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster) 56 caps
5. James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 30 caps Captain
6. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Munster) 16 caps
7. Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps
8. CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 44 caps

Replacements
16. Dave Heffernan (Buccaneers/Connacht) 4 caps
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 102 caps
18. John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 21 caps
19. Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 14 caps
20. Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 71 caps
21. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 27 caps
22. Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
23. Shane Daly (Cork Constitution/Munster) uncapped

The mind boggles as to why we are starting a 34 year old on the wing against Georgia in the closest thing to a meaningless game you'll ever get in international rugby.

Why not give Lowe a chance to build his confidence? Or throw Daly in there? What are we going to learn about Earl's against Georgia. Dont get me wrong, hes a legend and I love the guy but we'd gain so much more from seeing Lowe or Daly at 11.

Jump_In_Jack

TRC10 wrote: »

The mind boggles as to why we are starting a 34 year old on the wing against Georgia in the closest thing to a meaningless game you'll ever get in international rugby.

Why not give Lowe a chance to build his confidence? Or throw Daly in there? What are we going to learn about Earl's against Georgia. Dont get me wrong, hes a legend and I love the guy but we'd gain so much more from seeing Lowe or Daly at 11.

He just turned 33 last month

its_phil

Finlay has been going great but how is he playing loose head? Against Georgia of all bloody teams.

He’s a tight head.

Would have preferred Ultan over Quinn but hopefully we get Ultan back for Ospreys now.

Jump_In_Jack

its_phil wrote: »

Finlay has been going great but how is he playing loose head? Against Georgia of all bloody teams.

He’s a tight head.

Would have preferred Ultan over Quinn but hopefully we get Ultan back for Ospreys now.

Bealham gave an interview in the last day or so, he was preparing to cover loose-head all along, as the same thing happened back in 2016.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/11/26/bealham-its-an-opportunity-to-test-ourselves-against-a-quality-pack/

bilston

Has Daly played wing a lot? I've only ever seen him at FB. Obviously most FBs can play wing these days anyway so I assume he can.

sydthebeat

Reasonably understandable team considering where we are at with our development. Bealham at LH is showing just how shallow we are there, might be just too soon for EOS considering he's only had what, 4 days ago far with the squad.

Delighted to see SMCC in there, him and farrell with eat that Georgian midfield for breakfast.

Delighted to see daly named on the bench too. Hopefully he gets some meaningful minutes.

That's some backrow for turning the ball over!!

Ireland by 30 ish

Jump_In_Jack

I reckon Earls is likely to shift in to 13 for Daly to come onto the left wing.
I'd rather see Daly at 13.

CMcsporty

its_phil wrote: »

Finlay has been going great but how is he playing loose head? Against Georgia of all bloody teams.

He’s a tight head.

Would have preferred Ultan over Quinn but hopefully we get Ultan back for Ospreys now.

A tighthead playing loosehead
A secondrow playing backrow - im fine with that!
A winger playing fullback
A fullback playing winger
A right winger playing left wing

What business does 33 year old Earls have playing & at Left wing? When our best Left winger is been played out of position at FB??

And Healy over O'Sullivan?
Murray back at 9?
Daly a ready made FB on the bench for Georgia?

I couldnt have picked a worse team if I tried!

Jump_In_Jack

bilston wrote: »

Has Daly played wing a lot? I've only ever seen him at FB. Obviously most FBs can play wing these days anyway so I assume he can.

He played left wing a bit too for Munster, has pace to burn and good composure for a youngster.