Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

aloooof

CMcsporty wrote: »

I think so!
And my question was genuine!
How many pro players are there in France. In Ireland for that matter?
A simple calc and you would get a ratio of players: debut for 2020

And the answer is multiples more than Ireland. Not knowing the exact number does not amount to "spoofing".

CMcsporty

molloyjh wrote: »

You don't need to know the exact number FFS. Come on.

France have 14 sides in the T14 to our 4 provinces. So that's. 3.5 times the number of teams. Use that. We've capped 9 players so far this year. Daly will be 10. Have France capped 35 new players this year?

I know I don’t!!!
That’s my exact point! Read the posts FFS Come on

I’m saying exactly that the very fact that they have more professional players is not an excuse that Ireland shouldn’t be capping more than one player v Georgia

Legitimately we can be capping 5 players and still win and let the young lads get valuable experience in green.

I know exactly how many players Ireland have capped and it should be more.

shootermacg

CMcsporty wrote: »

I know I don’t!!!
That’s my exact point! Read the posts FFS Come on

I’m saying exactly that the very fact that they have more professional players is not an excuse that Ireland shouldn’t be capping more than one player v Georgia

Legitimately we can be capping 5 players and still win and let the young lads get valuable experience in green.

I know exactly how many players Ireland have capped and it should be more.

Georgia will offer exactly zero XP to anyone.

roverjoyce

CMcsporty wrote: »

I know I don’t!!!
That’s my exact point! Read the posts FFS Come on

I’m saying exactly that the very fact that they have more professional players is not an excuse that Ireland shouldn’t be capping more than one player v Georgia

Legitimately we can be capping 5 players and still win and let the young lads get valuable experience in green.

I know exactly how many players Ireland have capped and it should be more.

Main issue is they cant drop the centrally contracted players who

molloyjh

CMcsporty wrote: »

I know I don’t!!!
That’s my exact point! Read the posts FFS Come on

I’m saying exactly that the very fact that they have more professional players is not an excuse that Ireland shouldn’t be capping more than one player v Georgia

Legitimately we can be capping 5 players and still win and let the young lads get valuable experience in green.

I know exactly how many players Ireland have capped and it should be more.

If we weren't capping new players in other games I'd agree. But we are. So I don't. We are bringing new talent into the team in far more meaningful games and so in far more meaningful ways. Thats a positive. Doris getting selected in 6Ns games against tier 1 sides counts for a LOT more than any new caps in this game. I think you're view is incredibly myopic tbh.

If what we've seen of Farrell this year is any indication, we have a coach who is happy to bring guys through in 6Ns games, which is hugely proactive. Hopefully he can deliver the game plan to go with that over the next year or so and we can see what he is really made of as a coach. Whinging about him not capping new guys in a meaningless game when he is capping them in meaningful games is a bit bizarre.

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

If we weren't capping new players in other games I'd agree. But we are. So I don't. We are bringing new talent into the team in far more meaningful games and so in far more meaningful ways. Thats a positive. Doris getting selected in 6Ns games against tier 1 sides counts for a LOT more than any new caps in this game. I think you're view is incredibly myopic tbh.

If what we've seen of Farrell this year is any indication, we have a coach who is happy to bring guys through in 6Ns games, which is hugely proactive. Hopefully he can deliver the game plan to go with that over the next year or so and we can see what he is really made of as a coach. Whinging about him not capping new guys in a meaningless game when he is capping them in meaningful games is a bit bizarre.

the only bizarre thing is a full strength Irish side against Georgia. And the only one being short sighted is the coaching group and people like yourself. The fact that he did indeed cap some of the lads and then not others, hold some to lofty standards and not others is the bizarre thing and your dismissal of opposing views is incredibly boring at this stage.

CMcsporty

aloooof wrote: »

And the answer is multiples more than Ireland. Not knowing the exact number does not amount to "spoofing".

Well you might see it like that. I do not. For a couple of reasons.
When someone shares something on this forum like I did. And points out the difference..
And the response is....

“how many pro players are there in France as opposed to Ireland? seems relevant.”

For the purpose of discussion it’s perfectly reasonable that the person asking might actually know.
Obviously it’s more. I wanted to know the figures

As I’ve noticed on this forum if your opinion is not per the status quo you get the like of Molloy jumping on the back of your post to beat on someone new with a different opinion to theirs.

We all want Ireland to win. We all like to have an opinion but if it’s met with dismissive “do you knows” or patronising “let me knows” and then be lectured at about “bad faith” ???
Give me a break

I see I’m been called myopic now!
Pathetic

molloyjh

CMcsporty wrote: »

Well you might see it like that. I do not. For a couple of reasons.
When someone shares something on this forum like I did. And points out the difference..
And the response is....

“how many pro players are there in France as opposed to Ireland? seems relevant.”

For the purpose of discussion it’s perfectly reasonable that the person asking might actually know.
Obviously it’s more. I wanted to know the figures

As I’ve noticed on this forum if your opinion is not per the status quo you get the like of Molloy jumping on the back of your post to beat on someone new with a different opinion to theirs.

We all want Ireland to win. We all like to have an opinion but if it’s met with dismissive “do you knows” or patronising “let me knows” and then be lectured at about “bad faith” ???
Give me a break

I see I’m been called myopic now!
Pathetic

If you cant handle people challenging your opinion I'd love to know what you are doing on a discussion forum. You have pretty consistently dismissed others, refused to debate actual points people are making, avoiding addressing others and spouted your opinion as though it were gospel. Even that last word. Pathetic. Where have I or aloooof been even close to as aggressive as that to you?

You're doing this to yourself. I disagree with others here without it being an issue.

Niallof9

CMcsporty wrote: »

Well you might see it like that. I do not. For a couple of reasons.
When someone shares something on this forum like I did. And points out the difference..
And the response is....

“how many pro players are there in France as opposed to Ireland? seems relevant.”

For the purpose of discussion it’s perfectly reasonable that the person asking might actually know.
Obviously it’s more. I wanted to know the figures

As I’ve noticed on this forum if your opinion is not per the status quo you get the like of Molloy jumping on the back of your post to beat on someone new with a different opinion to theirs.

We all want Ireland to win. We all like to have an opinion but if it’s met with dismissive “do you knows” or patronising “let me knows” and then be lectured at about “bad faith” ???
Give me a break

I see I’m been called myopic now!
Pathetic

exactly. you're being called myopic (:rolleyes: just be Orwellian about it and speak plainly) when its clear its the coaching group being incredibly short sighted and conservative. It goes much deeper than the 23 selected as well. Cooney, and others etc. He's been at this for years, always dismissing peoples viewpoints. I mean i'm fairly certain he was one of the lads who said form isn't real or something to that effect.when this was discussed in years gone by. Its really bizarre how some people can't accept that they are wrong, time and again. In 12 months he and others will be saying oh you can't drop Casey, Baird he's a mainstay of the team. Like i said people said Ringrose wasn't ready. same with Ryan. was nonsense much the same as this defence of the side selected.

it was the same denial last season with the World Cup. let them at it, they are only kidding themselves. calling you aggressive while he's dismissing it as bizarre, myopic and so on.

ionadnapokot

molloyjh wrote: »

If you cant handle people challenging your opinion I'd love to know what you are doing on a discussion forum. You have pretty consistently dismissed others, refused to debate actual points people are making, avoiding addressing others and spouted your opinion as though it were gospel. Even that last word. Pathetic. Where have I or aloooof been even close to as aggressive as that to you?

You're doing this to yourself. I disagree with others here without it being an issue.

leave him alone
hes new and he is discussing.

Yeah_Right

CMcsporty wrote: »

from last years u20s are the ones that were included In the original squad
The other 2 are Daly.
And Byrne from ‘18 U20 World Cup

Casey, Baird, Daly and Harry Byrne? Is that right? Who am I missing?

Personally I would have liked to see Daly start, hopefully he gets some meaningful time off the bench.
In the case of Baird, bringing him in when the lineout has been malfunctioning so badly might not be a good idea. Maybe they are thinking they need to get that sorted before dropping a kid into it. I don't know.
Harry Byrne and Casey are tearing it up for their provinces with a continuous run of games. They are taking on the responsibility of directing their teams and winning matches. I think that is better for their development than being in the Irish camp and having a run out against Georgia.

Dog Botherer

ionadnapokot wrote: »

leave him alone
hes new and he is discussing.

au contraire, he’s a rereg and he’s boring.

Yeah_Right

aloooof wrote: »

I actually had a quick look at this, YR, it broke down as follows. Not much in it in the starting 15's, but the bench seems to be the biggest difference:

| Aus | NZ | Ire | Eng
15 | 25.7 | 26.7 | 27.4 | 27.3
Subs | 23 | 23.8 | 28 | 25.4
23 | 24.8 | 25.7 | 27.6 | 26.7

Thanks for that. The Irish bench does jump out. I guess thats because Murray is about 40

Niallof9

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Casey, Baird, Daly and Harry Byrne? Is that right? Who am I missing?

Personally I would have liked to see Daly start, hopefully he gets some meaningful time off the bench.
In the case of Baird, bringing him in when the lineout has been malfunctioning so badly might not be a good idea. Maybe they are thinking they need to get that sorted before dropping a kid into it. I don't know.
Harry Byrne and Casey are tearing it up for their provinces with a continuous run of games. They are taking on the responsibility of directing their teams and winning matches. I think that is better for their development than being in the Irish camp and having a run out against Georgia.

Yet he was called up to the Italy game, ruled out by injury. Yet now, all of a sudden he's not ready. Italy beat these lads 28-0. Its not just that they're not involved its now unlikely they won't be involved for the 6 nations. So then its the summer tour and people will say oh it was just a set of crap tour games, he's not ready. and on we go. They eventually copped on about Ringrose and Ryan was dropped straight in. time ot bite the bullet and back talent rather than contracts or because he's been in the squad now ala the MCFadden option.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

leave him alone
hes new and he is discussing.

But he isn't. He brought up the France thing. When someone pointed out that they have a lot more player sand therefore scope to cap players he ignored the substantive point and attempted to mire the discussion in a technicality on the number of players in order to avoid his point being challenged in a completely valid way.

Then, when I provided some rough numbers in order to move the conversation on, he decided to forget about France entirely and move the goalposts so he could again avoid his opinion being challenged.

Then, when I raised another valid point re the capping of guys in meaningful games, he yet again ignored that point in favour of taking issue with me calling his view myopic (and completely misrepresenting what I said in the process, I didn't call him myopic).

As I said, he is bringing it on himself. I'd love to have a conversation about this stuff. I flagged a serious issue I had with where we find ourselves earlier so its not like I'm a cheerleader.

Also, for clarity (not aimed at you), I never claimed something as daft as form not existing. That would be dumb. I've had a pretty consistent take on form for years. Its a factor in selection. But not the only one. No team is ever selected solely on form, especially when that form is often for different teams playing at a different level. Its a very good guide as to who should make squads and somewhat of an indicator for who should be selected. But it is not, in itself, a definitive. But of course, this is the Internet, so that has become to some people a completely different thing. Purely because it suits their position for it to be.

CMcsporty

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Casey, Baird, Daly and Harry Byrne? Is that right? Who am I missing?

Personally I would have liked to see Daly start, hopefully he gets some meaningful time off the bench.
In the case of Baird, bringing him in when the lineout has been malfunctioning so badly might not be a good idea. Maybe they are thinking they need to get that sorted before dropping a kid into it. I don't know.
Harry Byrne and Casey are tearing it up for their provinces with a continuous run of games. They are taking on the responsibility of directing their teams and winning matches. I think that is better for their development than being in the Irish camp and having a run out against Georgia.

Wycherley
I think they would benefit more v Georgia than tearing it up for the province. But there you go!

ionadnapokot

CMcsporty wrote: »

Well you might see it like that. I do not. For a couple of reasons.
When someone shares something on this forum like I did. And points out the difference..
And the response is....

“how many pro players are there in France as opposed to Ireland? seems relevant.”

For the purpose of discussion it’s perfectly reasonable that the person asking might actually know.
Obviously it’s more. I wanted to know the figures

As I’ve noticed on this forum if your opinion is not per the status quo you get the like of Molloy jumping on the back of your post to beat on someone new with a different opinion to theirs.

We all want Ireland to win. We all like to have an opinion but if it’s met with dismissive “do you knows” or patronising “let me knows” and then be lectured at about “bad faith” ???
Give me a break

I see I’m been called myopic now!
Pathetic

You are not alone!

It's a good point about the caps. & A very valid point. I also believe that Ireland are missing a chance not giving Casey, Byrne and Baird a go here.

I did a compilation of Australia capping allot of new players in Rennies first 4 games in charge v's Ireland and was met the same type of response

In Farrells defence he is at least trying to build something new but is been held back i feel by both the lack of real alternatives to Sexton and the power he holds within the camp.

I recommend trying the ignore function.. for a little while at least!

TRC10

roverjoyce wrote: »

Main issue is they cant drop the centrally contracted players who

McGrath, Toner, O'Mahony, Murray, Henshaw, Earls. They've all been dropped at some point. All centrally contracted.

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

1 debut for Ireland off the bench

11 debuts in one match for France

https://twitter.com/murray_kinsella/status/1331913572151152640?s=21

i assume you didnt know that france were always going to put out the thirds in this game becuase of the agreement with FFR

because if you did know that, then thats such a disingenuous position to take.

at the end of the day, those that seem to have an issue trying to reason out selections are never going to accept any selection. it will always be the "shinny new object" syndrome with them... hell we even have had posters calling for keenan to be disposed with at this stage.

could farrell have made better choices??? well having EOS or at least one other LH in the squad from the outset would have been a better choice. At this stage i wouldnt be surprised to see EOS on the bench against scotland, and good luck to him for that.

and as for ireland always making the same mistakes... and citing 6' 4" 100 kg centres as "the same mistake"....... shows a complete ignorance to the long standing center partnerships ireland have had down through the professional age.

sydthebeat

Niallof9 wrote: »

the only bizarre thing is a full strength Irish side against Georgia.

its absolutely no where near a full strength ireland side...

but go hyperbole away, thats all you seem to be able to do...

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

its absolutely no where near a full strength ireland side...

but go hyperbole away, thats all you seem to be able to do...

Hahaha, if this is a full strength Irish team, what is the team who played England?!

What’s more than full strength? Is it like supermilk?

Jump_In_Jack

I think they selected a small squad to test the players when injuries arose,
Bealham may be an asset at the next World Cup to be able to cover both sides, as an example.

Yeah_Right

CMcsporty wrote: »

Wycherley
I think they would benefit more v Georgia than tearing it up for the province. But there you go!

Completely forgot about Wycherley. I don't think he has earned a start yet looking at his form with Munster. I would be more interested in Coombes getting a call up.
I mentioned somewhere else that I think Casey's performance against Glasgow on Monday night would have done far more for his development than being a bit part of the Irish camp and getting a run around against Georgia. My hope is that he keeps progressing at the rate he is and gets called up for the 6 Nations.

CMcsporty

sydthebeat wrote: »

i assume you didnt know that france were always going to put out the thirds in this game becuase of the agreement with FFR

because if you did know that, then thats such a disingenuous position to take.

at the end of the day, those that seem to have an issue trying to reason out selections are never going to accept any selection. it will always be the "shinny new object" syndrome with them... hell we even have had players calling for keenan to be disposed with at this stage.

could farrell have made better choices??? well having EOS or at least one other LH in the squad from the outset would have been a better choice. At this stage i wouldnt be surprised to see EOS on the bench against scotland, and good luck to him for that.

and as for ireland always making the same mistakes... and citing 6' 4" 100 kg centres as "the same mistake"....... shows a complete ignorance to the long standing center partnerships ireland have had down through the professional age.

Is this place for real??
Have you actually read my posts?

Disingenuous

As for the last part.....honestly dont know what what are you ranting about!
I wasnt even talking about this or "the same mistake"

sydthebeat

CMcsporty wrote: »

Is this place for real??
Have you actually read my posts?

Disingenuous

As for the last part.....honestly dont know what what are you ranting about!
I wasnt even talking about this or "the same mistake"

disingenuous if you knew the situation

not disingenuous if you didnt know the situation....

which one is it?

the last part isnt referring to you specifically, its on other comments made in the thread so far

irishbucsfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I think they selected a small squad to test the players when injuries arose,
Bealham may be an asset at the next World Cup to be able to cover both sides, as an example.

If they did, then I think it’s a complete and total mistake, The next World Cup is in 2023.

I really don’t believe this is the case at all. But I do agree that the initial selection led them into this selection. And unfortunately it’s largely led to missing a lot of potential value from this game imo

CMcsporty

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Completely forgot about Wycherley. I don't think he has earned a start yet looking at his form with Munster. I would be more interested in Coombes getting a call up.
I mentioned somewhere else that I think Casey's performance against Glasgow on Monday night would have done far more for his development than being a bit part of the Irish camp and getting a run around against Georgia. My hope is that he keeps progressing at the rate he is and gets called up for the 6 Nations.

Wycherley was in the squad though. That's why i think he could come off the bench instead of O'Mahony.
& Why start Beirne at 6 s well?
its just odd i think considering he played 4 v Italy and France and did well there!

Big fan of Coombes myself but he wasnt in the original squad. So fair enough. I'd still call him up though!

Casey has shown enough already. Glasgow did him no harm of course but getting him capped now is more beneficial for him and Ireland now simply because it's not a 6N game. no crowd. less pressure.
I doubt we will see Casey for the 6N after seeing this selection.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

its absolutely no where near a full strength ireland side...

but go hyperbole away, thats all you seem to be able to do...

Full strength. I mean that's just hilarious. I mean if you ignore that it is missing Kilcoyne, Furlong, POM, Doris, Sexton, Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose, Larmour, Conway, Lowe, Carbery and that Cian Healy is on the bench behind a TH then yeah, it clearly is a full strength side. :pac:

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

He's been at this for years, always dismissing peoples viewpoints. I mean i'm fairly certain he was one of the lads who said form isn't real or something to that effect.

Niallof9 wrote: »

To many on here form didn't exist or doesn't exist, which is quite clearly a joke of a position to take.

That's twice in 2 days you've made this claim. Do you have any examples to actually back this up?

Because, honestly, it just sounds like more hyperbole.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

That's twice in 2 days you've made this claim. Do you have any examples to actually back this up?

Because, honestly, it just sounds like more hyperbole.

is anyone surprised??

reminds me of the red character in the movie inside out