Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

JJJackal

JJJackal wrote: »

I think Joe was an excellent coach.

My only criticism of Joe would be sticking with the same players irrespective of form. This happened to work in the past when players like Rob Kearney were able to come back from injury or average form at provincial level and turn it on for Ireland.

Joe probably hoped more than thought that Johnny Sexton and Conor Murray in particular would grow into the World Cup. This didnt really happen (or if Johnny did improve as WC went on, his body let him down). Marmion played in the victory v NZ in Dublin. In hindsight, there is a good argument that CM should not have been starting and that we should have chanced Jack Carty at out-half for more games (as sexton and carberry were injured; in sextons case injured and out of form - I suspect in sextons case the true extent of his injuries have been hidden from the public [maybe the same for murray - crispness of pass has deteriorated since shoulder injury])

I would say Eddie Jones would have taken similar risks with Farrell and BV

Shefwedfan

ggggggg

JJJackal wrote: »

I think Joe was an excellent coach.

My only criticism of Joe would be sticking with the same players irrespective of form. This happened to work in the past when players like Rob Kearney were able to come back from injury or average form at provincial level and turn it on for Ireland.

Joe probably hoped more than thought that Johnny Sexton and Conor Murray in particular would grow into the World Cup. This didnt really happen (or if Johnny did improve as WC went on, his body let him down). Marmion played in the victory v NZ in Dublin. In hindsight, there is a good argument that CM should not have been starting and that we should have chanced Jack Carty at out-half for more games (as sexton and carberry were injured; in sextons case injured and out of form - I suspect in sextons case the true extent of his injuries have been hidden from the public [maybe the same for murray - crispness of pass has deteriorated since shoulder injury])

Carty came on at 57 min against Scotland, got a start against a tier 2. Got a full half against another Tier 2.

The only time the team played with any sort of fluidity was when Sexton was at 10.

Sexton did take a knock but was fit for the Japan game and the rest of the tournament. Why do you think he wasn't?

ANy more minutes without Sexton and I doubt Ireland would have even got out of the group/. Carbery injury turned out to be critical in the end

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carty came on at 57 min against Scotland, got a start against a tier 2. Got a full half against another Tier 2.



The only time the team played with any sort of fluidity was when Sexton was at 10.



Sexton did take a knock but was fit for the Japan game and the rest of the tournament. Why do you think he wasn't?



ANy more minutes without Sexton and I doubt Ireland would have even got out of the group

Sexton was not fit for a full 80 minutes. Carty needed more game time for fluidity.

Lets go back to the day before the WC started. Everyone thought we could potentially win a WC. Sexton was in no condition to play 3 80 minute games in 15 days... (quarters semi and final). Building your game plan on an injured out half is like trying to build a house on quick sand

Shefwedfan

JJJackal wrote: »

Sexton was not fit for a full 80 minutes. Carty needed more game time for fluidity.

Lets go back to the day before the WC started. Everyone thought we could potentially win a WC. Sexton was in no condition to play 3 80 minute games in 15 days... (quarters semi and final). Building your game plan on an injured out half is like trying to build a house on quick sand

How do you know Sexton is not fit for 80 mins? Based on all Interview with Sexton he has said he is fit to stay on but Joe will pull him if not required and the game is won. Standard procedure for all coach’s, get the star players off

Anytime the game was still in balance Sexton has stayed on....

Carty has more minutes this year to Carbery, so how many minutes does he need to get fluid?

Just look at Italy game, first run out and the team was playing ok but Carbery was running the show. He goes off and it dies. Now are you trying to say that’s because Carbery has more minutes?

Shefwedfan

Anyway I am not replying anymore, this has been discussed numerous times. Unless you are J Sexton or part of the medical staff you have no idea if Sexton was fit or not so pointless discussion.

JJJackal

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Anyway I am not replying anymore, this has been discussed numerous times. Unless you are J Sexton or part of the medical staff you have no idea if Sexton was fit or not so pointless discussion.

When your outhalf no longer takes the goal kicks half way through the game and your scrum half who does not take goal kicks at provincial level steps in, this is typically an indication of injury.

Most coaches would give their outhalf who has played few minutes over the course of the season prolonged runs in games to get them up to match speed

Carberry has more minutes than carty. Carberry was injured pre world cup and for most our world cup- this is well known

Bazzo

ClanofLams wrote: »

Lowry is a really good footballer but very slight, should have been moved to 9 five years ago. Will have to be exceptionally talented and durable to make it at 15.

If Sexton is playing well I would be fine with him starting, whatever gives best chance of success in six nations. I don’t think Carbery will be picked at 15, would be interesting to see how it goes but expect him to be viewed only as ten. Larmour will take over at 15.

Not sure I agree with Lowry being too small for test rugby. We have some great recent examples that you don't need to be a giant to be an outstanding back 3 test player in Minozzi and Kolbe.

mfceiling

Bazzo wrote: »

Not sure I agree with Lowry being too small for test rugby. We have some great recent examples that you don't need to be a giant to be an outstanding back 3 test player in Minozzi and Kolbe.

Lowry is very small. As bad a last defender that Kearney is/was perceived to have been, I'd hate to see the likes of George North or Tualiagi on a one on one with Lowry.

Squidgy Black

mfceiling wrote: »

Lowry is very small. As bad a last defender that Kearney is/was perceived to have been, I'd hate to see the likes of George North or Tualiagi on a one on one with Lowry.

He's two inches smaller than Minozzi and a good 5kg lighter than Kolbe at the same height.

Great player, but unless he makes a shift to the wing he'll probably struggle at the top level size wise.

Clegg

We're playing the World Champions and the team that humiliated us last month. Two huge games for November 2020.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1190901606591520769?s=19

Shefwedfan

Good tests for ireland

We should really just use all those games as training grounds

Podge_irl

I didn't feel humiliated after Japan beat us by 7 points. I think its a bit odd if you do to be honest.

Dubinusa

We were kack. We beat a poor Scotland! I thought the match with Russia was telling. We were absolutely clueless, imo.
All in all, the team was poorly prepped. We never got momentum and we could not do anything to stop the bleeding and turn it around.
There's multiple reasons for this. The main reason is our inability to to match up with the physicality of teams like N.Z etc. Why is that?
It doesn't matter who gets selected if we can't get over the gainline. Stationary receivers is certainly not the answer. How come the coaches couldn't see that?
For as poor as we performed, reverting to the same static receivers was nuts.
I think that Joe had run his course and our peak was 2018. We've been downhill all season. Physically unable to stay with N.Z, Engaland and Wales. Factor in Murray being shute and Sexton way below his best and here's where we are.
It was plain to see during the 6nations. I did think we could turn it around but, we stayed the course.

sydthebeat

Podge_irl wrote: »

I didn't feel humiliated after Japan beat us by 7 points. I think its a bit odd if you do to be honest.

Agreed.

Humiliation seems like a very strong way to say disappointing.

Clegg

It was humiliating, at the very least for me. We turned Japan over in 2017 with a second string side and handled them very easily. But we were comprehensively outperformed in the World Cup. Japan Syed a style of rugby that we didn think was possible to play at test level. Then they went on to get hammered by South Africa in the knockouts.

It's been a thoroughly chastening experience I think.

sydthebeat

Who went on to hammer England in the final.....

Where Japan are right now I think we'd be lucky to beat them 5 times out of 10.

Let's hope we do what SA did after them last time they were beaten by Japan.

ionadnapokot

Japan loss was an embarrassment.
The capitulation v NZ was the humiliation.

molloyjh

Insert hyperbole here.


Is that how this works?

Shefwedfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Insert hyperbole here.


Is that how this works?

Yes

Clegg

Honestly I'm a bit perplexed by people who don't see the Japan defeat as an embarrassment. Like, we were quite possibly the best side in the world in November 2018, then 9 months later we lose to Japan? Nah, lads. We've thoroughly screwed the pooch here.

I will always advocate for Schmidt's tenure as being the most successful period in Irish rugby history. But it's not hyperbole to say the defeat to Japan was on of our worst ever results.

irishbucsfan

Clegg wrote: »

Honestly I'm a bit perplexed by people who don't see the Japan defeat as an embarrassment. Like, we were quite possibly the best side in the world in November 2018, that 9 months later we lose to Japan? Nah, lads. We've thoroughly screwed the pooch here.

I will always advocate for Schmidt's tenure as being the most successful period in Irish rugby history. But it's not hyperbole to say the defeat to Japan was on of our worst ever results.

I don't generally get embarrassed or humiliated about things I haven't done myself. I have enough of that to worry about, this is just a sports team!

Clegg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't generally get embarrassed or humiliated about things I haven't done myself. I have enough of that to worry about, this is just a sports team!

But that's the entire point of being a fan, I think. You invest yourself in the results and the performance. It's a form of tribalism in a sense. The team's victories gives you a lift, whereas the defeats brings you down. For instance, Heinke Meyer apologised to the SA fans after they lost to Japan in 2015. I'm not saying for one second that Schmidt should have apologised to Ireland's fans for the result. But it's a fact that fans take sports very seriously.

Obviously, the ones who will feel the worst about the defeat are the team itself. But that doesn't preclude the fans from feeling embarrassment.

sydthebeat

So are we now leveling off from 'humiliation' to 'embarrassment'. ???

Give it another day or two and we'll be at 'annoyed' ....

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

Honestly I'm a bit perplexed by people who don't see the Japan defeat as an embarrassment. Like, we were quite possibly the best side in the world in November 2018, that 9 months later we lose to Japan? Nah, lads. We've thoroughly screwed the pooch here.

I will always advocate for Schmidt's tenure as being the most successful period in Irish rugby history. But it's not hyperbole to say the defeat to Japan was on of our worst ever results.

It’s a game of rugby at the end of the day....Japan played well and deserved to win...fair play to them

It wasn’t one of our worst results ever....

Clegg

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s a game of rugby at the end of the day....Japan played well and deserved to win...fair play to them

It wasn’t one of our worst results ever....

I think it was.

We were flying not even a year before. Then we lost to a side that our 2nds/3rds dispatched with relative ease in 2017. It's easily categorised, I think.

sydthebeat

Clegg wrote: »

I think it was.

We were flying not even a year before. Then we lost to a side that our 2nds/3rds dispatched with relative ease in 2017. It's easily categorised, I think.

one side playing exact scintillating moving rugby and defending with speed....... the other playing pre-rehearsed, turgid, mistake ridden narrow rugby who couldnt get to grips with the fast pace of the game.

thats how id categorise it.

maybe we were flying because everyone else we played were looking and planning for 12 months into the future??

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

one side playing exact scintillating moving rugby and defending with speed....... the other playing pre-rehearsed, turgid, mistake ridden narrow rugby who couldnt get to grips with the fast pace of the game.

thats how id categorise it.

maybe we were flying because everyone else we played were looking and planning for 12 months into the future??

That argument doesnt really stand up when NZ rocked into town and started saying whoever won would be number 1.....

Clegg

sydthebeat wrote: »

one side playing exact scintillating moving rugby and defending with speed....... the other playing pre-rehearsed, turgid, mistake ridden narrow rugby who couldnt get to grips with the fast pace of the game.

thats how id categorise it.

maybe we were flying because everyone else we played were looking and planning for 12 months into the future??

You can absolutely categorise it as that. Because that's exactly what happened! So why couldn't we deal with that? Japan didn't pluck their style out of thin air. They tried that in 2017 and were snuffed out. So why couldn't our best side do that again? Or at least, why did we seem so ill prepared for it?

And of course everyone else was building to the WC in 2018. So were we! The question then becomes why did we go from (almost) top of the world to another humiliating exit?

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That argument doesnt really stand up when NZ rocked into town and started saying whoever won would be number 1.....

of course it does...

your argument would only counter if anyone actually gave a crap about who was world number 1 at the end of 2018.. NZ didnt... SA didnt....england didnt....

theres been plenty of analysis to show that NZ played a game that day which is anathema to how they usually play... which says to me that Hansen looked at that game for what it was... a practise run before the RWC to try out some things... which failed miserably, so he ditched quick sharp.

unfortunately it lead us into a bit of a false sense of security in our system.. and we played all of 2019 trying to recreate what had worked, but others had progressed beyond.

mfceiling

Stuart Barnes has a stab at his lions team for 2021.
James Ryan.
That's our entire representation.